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I really don't understand why we don't see Blood Angels as Imperial Guard allies more often. I mean, we see (or rather, I see) a lot of DA/IG and SW/IG, why not Blood Angels.

Here are the points I see in favour of Blood Angels as Imperial Guard allies

*Access to the Divination Tree. True a Lvl 1 DA Libby costs 25 pts less than than a 100pt lvl 2 BA libby (lvl 2 being the minimum a BA libby can be) but if you're taking allies for the purposes of divination access, you'll surely want a level II libby anyway. And a lvl 2 DA librarian is also 100pts

*Access to up to 2 Assault Squads as troop choices OR a Death Company Squad and a Death Company Dread AND a Terminator Assault Squad in the elite slot.

*Access to multiple Landraider variants via Dedicated Transport and Heavy Support (not that this is such a big deal given the preponderance of excellent IG Tanks, mind you).

If all the IG player is looking for is access to the Divination tree, he could field an allied contingent for as little as 160 points if all that you want is Divination access (100pt Libby and 3 Death Company).

Alternatively, if he's looking to complement his uber shooty army with assault troops (as would make a great deal of sense) he can have himself a Furioso Dreadnaught AND a Libby for as little as 325pts, which also gets him a 5 man Death Company squad (the minimum for Furioso access). Mind you, you would need to buy a drop-pods and-or jump-packs to make them effective as anything other than a foot-slogging counter charge unit. Two drop-pods brings the total cost to 400pts. And that will leave 100pts in many player's default ally budget (500pts seems to be pretty common) to buy extras such as more troops, magna-grapples, weapon upgrades etc.

Alternatively, take assault squads for scoring units than can take objectives in your opponents half of the deployment zone

Not bad for a very effective little allied contingent to boost dakka and provide an assault force to keep the bad-guys way from your nice, fleshy IG squads.

It just seems like a much better option than the typical allied contingents: Rune Priest/Grey Hunters or DA Libby/Command Sqd/Banner of Devestation/Scout or Tac squad combo. Of, for that matter, the hideously expensive Azrael/Tac Squad combo.

It just seems that, for the most part, these combo's add more dakka to an already dakka army. Okay, the RP also adds psychic protection and Az adds a very awesome invuln save, but at the end of the day a 5+/4++ save isn't all that awesome if your playing a static gun line anyway. Not with ignore cover save weapons still being relatively rare and Aegis Defence Lines being so cheap. I can see the point in you run an assault blob full of power-axes mind you. On the other hand, Blood Angels allies could do the assault job for you in a much cheaper, less gimmiky fashion. But I'm digressing.

The point is that IG are already very Dakka. Where they are lacking is in the assault phase. It's their biggest weakness. BA allies remove this weakness entirely by giving easy to access to excellent (by IG standards) assault troops for counter-assaults and seizing objectives in the enemy deployment zone AND they still boost Dakka even more with the Divination tree.

I just think they're a far better option on paper. I haven't tried them out yet, but I will as soon as my new Assault Squads and Death Company miniatures arrive. I'll let you know how I get on.

The BA codex has alot of problems in 6th ed. Our units are very pricey for the damage output, so you don't get much return in your investment. I can see the pros of a divy librarian in a guard army but our troops let us down massively- greyhunters do it so much better which is why you see IG/BA as a common allience.

Another weakness is that as allies you only get 1 slot per force org and alot of our best stuff really shines in multiples - drop fragiousos, drop sternguard,and if you take either of those in an allies list yoy get no priests which are needed for the FNP. DC are too expensive for a non scoring unit t o be viable, even as a conunter assault unit.

I think BA with Ig allies might work better than IG/BA. I look forward to hearing how you get on.

D

Also the 100 point BA libby is only mastery level 1. To get to mastery level 2 you need to pay an additional 50 points.

In addition to the above, Space Wolves add the best psychic defense still available in the game if you take a rune priest and Dark Angels HQ's gives the squad they join the fearless special rule.

So in addition to paying an exorbitant amount of points for a librarian compared to SW or DA it is also worse than both of them. Add that to all choices being either worse (grey hunters vs any troop choice) or way more expensive (any comparable unit between BA and DA codex) and it becomes quite obvious why you don't see them.

The other people already covered the main reasons.

Don't forget that DA Librarians also have Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines), which confers to the 50 man blob they're escorting for maximum spawn and zombie killing fun.

A lot of odd assumptions made here, though they've already been covered. There is, however, one thing that BA's can offer blob IG that may be worth looking at: Sanguinary Priests are only 50pts, which I'm pretty sure makes them the cheapest way to add ATSKNF to a blob squad. Obviously, Rune Priests/Librarians offer benefits that a Priest does not, but for twice the price.

I have been thinking over the best way for BA to compliment an IG list and its not easy because (as stated above) you want multiple of te good units. However I have been trying to formulate the BA allies list as a force multiplier, what I mean is: take a stock librarian, take 3 prisest in one elite slot. Have these individual IC's lead around either blobs or single ten men squads. I'd probably add in a drop furioso fragnought and drop DC (who needs more scoring units when you have IG on the table) then maybe a predator. The DC and fragnought would take some best off of a gun line or your backfield artillery or Russes. The 4 ICs give out ATSKNF. Remember the Sanguinary priests still give FNP to themselves.

However Everytime I start list building I find myself preferring DA as an ally for IG or even GK.

You also forgot that the DA libby is in reality 100 pts and gives models within 3" a 4++ inv save.

There is also no reason to upgrade the libby to ML 2 as prescience is the main power that the IG really want. The second ML is entirely optional.

I could see a mech BA force being useful for a mech or Aircav IG force. The dreads and baal could be very useful in the right IG force.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I have been thinking over the best way for BA to compliment an IG list and its not easy because (as stated above) you want multiple of te good units. However I have been trying to formulate the BA allies list as a force multiplier, what I mean is: take a stock librarian, take 3 prisest in one elite slot. Have these individual IC's lead around either blobs or single ten men squads. I'd probably add in a drop furioso fragnought and drop DC (who needs more scoring units when you have IG on the table) then maybe a predator. The DC and fragnought would take some best off of a gun line or your backfield artillery or Russes. The 4 ICs give out ATSKNF. Remember the Sanguinary priests still give FNP to themselves.

However Everytime I start list building I find myself preferring DA as an ally for IG or even GK.

Another big problem with BA allies, I think, is that you have to choose Priest OR podded Fragioso. This (and model availability) is why I've been pretty happy with my BA primary/IG ally list lately. The BA elite slot is still pretty good, and I get the IG plasma Vets I really wanted. The only real downside to using IG as the allies is that you only get one Vendetta squadron, but I can live with that.

evildrcheese wrote:The BA codex has alot of problems in 6th ed. Our units are very pricey for the damage output, so you don't get much return in your investment. I can see the pros of a divy librarian in a guard army but our troops let us down massively- greyhunters do it so much better which is why you see IG/BA as a common allience.

Another weakness is that as allies you only get 1 slot per force org and alot of our best stuff really shines in multiples - drop fragiousos, drop sternguard,and if you take either of those in an allies list yoy get no priests which are needed for the FNP. DC are too expensive for a non scoring unit t o be viable, even as a conunter assault unit.

I think BA with Ig allies might work better than IG/BA. I look forward to hearing how you get on.

D

Yes, compared to say, Dark Angels, our troops are expensive. But I still think Descent of Angels of worth the 25pts difference between DA and BA assault squads if you take them in fullsquads. The ability to damn-near guarantee deep-striking your melta guns within 6" of a vehicle can be a game winner. One elite slot buys the two Priests you need for the death company or two for the assaut squads -or to give the IG blobs a 5+ FNP save.

DutchSage wrote:Also the 100 point BA libby is only mastery level 1. To get to mastery level 2 you need to pay an additional 50 points.

In addition to the above, Space Wolves add the best psychic defense still available in the game if you take a rune priest and Dark Angels HQ's gives the squad they join the fearless special rule.

So in addition to paying an exorbitant amount of points for a librarian compared to SW or DA it is also worse than both of them. Add that to all choices being either worse (grey hunters vs any troop choice) or way more expensive (any comparable unit between BA and DA codex) and it becomes quite obvious why you don't see them.

Yes, but a BA Libby will give the IG blob ATSKNF (so will the Sp's, for that matter), which is hands down better than Fearless. Especially with the ability to fall back your blob squad out of combat and then rapid fire into the unit that assaulted you (with Prescience) on your next turn. And I don't believe you can deep-strike Grey Hunters? Or give them jump packs.

evildrcheese wrote:The BA codex has alot of problems in 6th ed. Our units are very pricey for the damage output, so you don't get much return in your investment. I can see the pros of a divy librarian in a guard army but our troops let us down massively- greyhunters do it so much better which is why you see IG/BA as a common allience.

Another weakness is that as allies you only get 1 slot per force org and alot of our best stuff really shines in multiples - drop fragiousos, drop sternguard,and if you take either of those in an allies list yoy get no priests which are needed for the FNP. DC are too expensive for a non scoring unit t o be viable, even as a conunter assault unit.

I think BA with Ig allies might work better than IG/BA. I look forward to hearing how you get on.

D

Thanks. I still think the benefit SP give guard blob squads is a good use of that Elite slot though. Better even than a pair of Furioso's. And why add Sternguard to an already shooty army when what it really needs is assault/counter assault capability?

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:Don't forget that DA Librarians also have Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines), which confers to the 50 man blob they're escorting for maximum spawn and zombie killing fun.

That is pretty awesome against CSM, come to think of it. But wasted against other opponents.

tomjoad wrote:A lot of odd assumptions made here, though they've already been covered. There is, however, one thing that BA's can offer blob IG that may be worth looking at: Sanguinary Priests are only 50pts, which I'm pretty sure makes them the cheapest way to add ATSKNF to a blob squad. Obviously, Rune Priests/Librarians offer benefits that a Priest does not, but for twice the price.

Exactly! I really should have covered that in my post. One elite choice will confer FNP on as many as three blob squads.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I have been thinking over the best way for BA to compliment an IG list and its not easy because (as stated above) you want multiple of te good units. However I have been trying to formulate the BA allies list as a force multiplier, what I mean is: take a stock librarian, take 3 prisest in one elite slot. Have these individual IC's lead around either blobs or single ten men squads. I'd probably add in a drop furioso fragnought and drop DC (who needs more scoring units when you have IG on the table) then maybe a predator. The DC and fragnought would take some best off of a gun line or your backfield artillery or Russes. The 4 ICs give out ATSKNF. Remember the Sanguinary priests still give FNP to themselves.

However Everytime I start list building I find myself preferring DA as an ally for IG or even GK.

That's an interesting list. I agree you hardly need any more scoring units in a Guard force. Which one reason why I suggested a Death Dread/Death Company combo for troops.

ansacs wrote:You also forgot that the DA libby is in reality 100 pts and gives models within 3" a 4++ inv save.

There is also no reason to upgrade the libby to ML 2 as prescience is the main power that the IG really want. The second ML is entirely optional.

I could see a mech BA force being useful for a mech or Aircav IG force. The dreads and baal could be very useful in the right IG force.

Good point about the ugrades. But bear in mind that 4++ invuln applies to EVERY models within 3". Including enemy models. So i's not as hot in a blob squad as you might think. Especially if you go down the Power-Axe blob squad route and expect to get into assault (or assaulted). Which, given that you're playing guard, you should ALWAYS expect to happen.

Another big problem with BA allies, I think, is that you have to choose Priest OR podded Fragioso. This (and model availability) is why I've been pretty happy with my BA primary/IG ally list lately. The BA elite slot is still pretty good, and I get the IG plasma Vets I really wanted. The only real downside to using IG as the allies is that you only get one Vendetta squadron, but I can live with that.

I've heard even less about BA with IG allies. I'd love to see your list if you wouldn't mind sharing it? Even via PM?

The priest FnP does not confer to the IG models.

Melee oriented IG is very very dead. Power blobbs are primarily for shooting and board control. They do not want to get into melee they are prepared to receive a charge though. The libby in a blobb squad should always be outside 3" of an enemy model unless the blobb is 80% dead, if that is the case you are not going to win a melee of 10 guardsmen and a libby vs anything.

SW grey hunter do have DS and a better version. It is called a drop pod.

The BA really have 3 advantages in my view;
1) bhaal AP3 flamers on a fast vehicle chassis
2) dread troops that can be dropped in and do serious damage
3) good assault termies

I could see using points 1 and 2 in a mechvet list where AV12 is saturated and you want to be within 12" of the enemy therefore a solid counter assault unit could be useful.

Point 3 is of dubious use in a gunline. An IG gunline already has a good answer to CC: that answer is speed bump squads, throw a 10 man IS into the assaulters and make them kill them in their assault phase then get shot up in your shooting phase. IG don't really need a dedicated counter assault unit. They do need a forward scoring unit which assault marines can do but assault marines are more expensive grey hunters but for that expense are slightly worse at shooting and have less options overall.

:headslap: Drop-Pods. What sort of idiot forgets drop-pods!

Oh, right. Me

I hadn't realised SP don't pass FNP onto IG squads. Which actually makes a great deal of sense now that I think about it.

Well, that's essentially shot my theory down for good.

First, Priests only give FNP to units chosen from Codex: Blood Angels. If that conferred to any battle brothers, I think you'd see a LOT more BA/IG team ups. I am suggesting the Priest only for ATSKNF.

My list at 2k is:
Libby, Corbulo and sternguard in a drop pod
Fragioso in a pod
4 x 5 assault marines with melta in razorbacks
5 assault marines in a pod with flamer and 2 hand flamers
3 hyperios missile platforms

Primaris psyker
Plasma vets with chimera
Plasma vets in a Vendetta

None of the powerful IG tanks, but it's been good to me so far.

 tomjoad wrote:
First, Priests only give FNP to units chosen from Codex: Blood Angels. If that conferred to any battle brothers, I think you'd see a LOT more BA/IG team ups. I am suggesting the Priest only for ATSKNF.

My list at 2k is:
Libby, Corbulo and sternguard in a drop pod
Fragioso in a pod
4 x 5 assault marines with melta in razorbacks
5 assault marines in a pod with flamer and 2 hand flamers
3 hyperios missile platforms

Primaris psyker
Plasma vets with chimera
Plasma vets in a Vendetta

None of the powerful IG tanks, but it's been good to me so far.

Fairly stereotypical mech blood angel list from 5th edition, with new IG allies. What weapon load-out on the razors?

2 Hand flamers on the sergeant? Seems like a lot of points to spend on S3 templates (30 points). I think I understand why though....you have very few boots on the ground and need as much anti-infantry as possible.

If you wanted a single marine for the ATSKNF the techmarine is a better buy. 2+ armor, a harness and gives some ruins a boost.

But yea the issue with BA (my main army) is that they depend on multiples of things to really work. We are talking usually multiple priests which negates our other fun elite stuff.

The second issue is that our HQ choices are kind of all over the map. Meph, resularch (if you want DC) or a librarian are the only real choices and DA/SW do libbys better for the cost.

We do have some benefits, but the result is often a force that lacks the bells and whistles of other forces.

Dont forget the honour guard dont take up a slot in the force org and is a way to sneak in a priests.

Loadout 1 -> basic
Librarian on foot with IG
Sang priest with JP
Regular Assault Marines x2 w/ Meltaguns
Attackbikes x3 w/MM

** this is a straight forward list to add bodies, I left heavy out as it does have good options but again are ones I feel you need multiples to make work. WIth this you have 2 ras squads with a priest which can be a forwward objective taker. But be warned they kinda suck at protracted combat... meq wise.

loadout 2: deepstriking everything
Resularch - regular or TDA
Deathcompany x 7-9 (bolters) - 1 fist 1 pw
droppod

Furioso + with fist and frag cannon
droppod

Deathcompany furioso with talons
droppod

Regular dread fist/MM
droppod

This basically involves dropping 4 angry things at your opponent. Furioso dread, talon DC dread and a regular dread is alot for a ally to bring. Furthermore DC with bolters from a droppod is a force to be reckoned with if positioned wisely. If you want to take this a step further you can always throw some VV in for the FA slot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also when it comes to adding tanks, BA is still one of the best marine armored forces.

-Razorbacks and Landraiders count as dedicated transports
- Baal predators have outflank and are hella scary for fast attack
- heavy has fast preds, fast vindicators and stormravens with their tasty missles.

So a BA armor loadout could look like

Landraider:
Librarian (with sheild) - 5 man Ras squad (for ride discount)
Vindicator
Baal Predator

or if you want to get pricey
Landraider - librarian - TH/SS terminators
Ras - Razorback
Ras - Razorback
Honourguard - Plasmagunx4 - Razorback
Baal Predator
Vindicator

 evildrcheese wrote:


I think BA with Ig allies might work better than IG/BA. I look forward to hearing how you get on.

With Vendettas, Artillery, LR all coming in 1-3 per slot and infantry squads up to 60 men per troop choice I really think IG was made to be the allies for most armies.

I run either Chaos or SW primary with IG allies for my homebrew.

The problem with taking IG as the ally and BA as the primary is that the majority of your firepower is coming from the IG, I want multiple artillery batteries AND multiple non-squadroned vendettas more than I want multiple furioso or elite slots. I want to use the BA for their mobility and access to power armor in a unit that can do hand to hand better than guard. As a guard player, when enemy terminators deep strike behind your aegis, it's kinda game over. With some BA, a sprinkling, I can have a unit that can tie up such a unit. The other guard issue which I mentioned above is mobility which BA do not have an issue with, you can almost always get a squad where you need it with fast razor backs and minimal scatter with DoA.

I think 5 man assault squads with flamer and dual hand flamers will be more useful for threatening Xenos infantry in cover. You can make t3 4+ units disappear with no problem. Then you can hide the unit off for line breaker or to score on an enemy point.

That's exactly the thinking with the flamer squad. 125 points to do everything you mentioned as well as allow the other two pods to drop turn 1 is a good deal to me.

It is definitely a matter of model availability that makes me use BA primary. I have enough IG models that I could either do Vet spam, or one blob. Either way, I haven't got any of the artillery that you really want when using Guard and my dedication to the game is not high enough right now to go out and get the tanks plus a couple more vendettas. Maybe when the IG and BA books get updated, I'll be re-energized.

First you have a few BA facts wrong.
100 point librarians can take two powers but are only mastery level 1.
I'm less sure about it but I think that land raiders may ONLY be taken as DT and not heavy support.

Second I think BA make fine allies for IG as long as you play to their strengths.

A libby with 2 rolls on divination to stick in a blob.

A drop pod frag naught for first turn infantry melting and an av 13 distraction.

A 6 man death company with 3 axes in a god hammer for soild counter assault, and some anti tank.

A death company blender dread assaulting from a stormraven.

An outflanking baal pred with flamers.

These are the things BA do really well. When I ran them with my IG I did all of the above(in different lists) with great success.

I've been away for a couple of days (why I've been so quiet) but I want to thank you all for your thoughts (and your lists). I'm definitely going ahead with trying out BA/IG in a good few games at my local group. If I get on well enough, I'll take the list to a small tournament and see how it does.

I'm leaning towards taking a BA Libby for divination and 2 jump assault squads for seizing objectives from the other player. I'll keep you posted on how I get along.

I'm actually taking the list I mentioned above to a GT in California this weekend; I'll report back with my results later, though I wouldn't read too much into them as it is the first 40k tournament I'll have been in since 4th edition.

Try max dread ally.
Libby (HQ) leading 5 death company in pod (Troop), Fragnaught in pod (elite), Deathnaught in pod (troop), regularnaught in pod (heavy support)

695 points, but you're podding in 3 dreadnoughts, and a small group of loonies. It can very seriously disrupt forward momentum.

I even had luck with swapping the deathcompanies pod for a land raider, and adding in a baal for a mech list.