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I'm a returning player and was just wondering what are the best competitive armies at the moment, here's a very brief rundown of what I think I know, please correct me if wrong.

Necrons
- extremely powerful and superhard to kill
- lists normally consist of a destroyer lord, necrons warriors in night scythes, annihilation barges and canoptek wraiths.
- allies well with lots of armies, including CSMs to get a heldrake.

Chaos Daemons
- best viable assault army
- has a few builds, Flying monstrous circus, screamer council and dog rush

Tau
- brings tons of fire power to shoot opponents to death
- lists will generally include Riptides, Broadsides, Sky Rays, pathfinders with lots of fire warriors and/or kroots
- can bring in psychic allies like eldar if it needs to.

Eldar
- Like Tau can bring lots of firepower
- early days but Farseer and warlocks on jetbikes, Dire avengers in wave serpents, war walkers and night spinners seem to be the way to go.

Did I miss anything? Maybe space marines with blob guard and vendetta allies? Grey knights and tyranids maybe at a stretch.

I'm hoping the black legion codex will bring in another assault option but it will probably just be more terminator shenanigans with a chaos twist.

I'd throw Imperial Guard in there. They have...

- Vendettas, probably the best non-Troops flier in the game. But, since it can carry troops til late game, it helps for snagging distant objectives.
- Manticores - 1-3 S10 ordinance barrage templates per turn? These alone are a hard counter to Aegishammer.
- Blobs w/ Power Axes and Krak Grenades - Now that grenades can be used against MCs in H2H, a blob with 5 Power Axes and some Krak Grenades provides a serious threat to MCs, 150 lasgun shots with FRFSRF, and 5 chumps to step up and take hits for whatever IC is keeping them in the fight.

Necrons, Tau and Eldar I would agree are all top tier .

Daemons can indeed put out a lot of FMC's or a dog rush list, but the randomness of the warptable and hoping for the skills you need on biomancy take them out of the top tier in my mind.

Imperial Guard are always near the top of the list IMO, perhaps more so if you are using forgeworld models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damn, ninja'd by NuggzTheNinja!

You nailed it pretty well OP, though as mentioned, Daemons need a specific build to be top tier while the other three have a few ways about it.

I've had pretty good success with Tyranids against those armies, although I haven't played Waveserpent spam yet. The most I've seen on the table was 2.

I'm sure I'll be blasted for saying that though... truth is Tyranids have a lot of good answers for those armies.

truth is Tyranids have a lot of good answers for those armies.

Errrrm.....2 flyrants 2 tervigons any chance? The truth is Tyranids don't have counters to much atm, a competitive list almost certainly includes the standard 2 flyrants 2 tervigons.

I won't blast you for it, but I guess player skill is more important in your results than the level tiers of the armies being played.

The doom/3 zoanthropes in a pod with psychic shriek works really well against wraithknights. Gargoyles too.

Tau gunlines hiding behind an aegis wall... spore mines. They deepstrike before deployment, walls are set up before terrain, so you just deepstrike into the walled off area and screw them over big time.

Daemons have super low leadership. The doom/zoanthrope thing works well on them too. Then it's just a scrum between poisoned gaunts and gargoyles and the hounds. FMC's still have to test vs the Doom's power.

Necrons have a lot of str 7 ap 4... which doesn't ID anything important and allows saves on most everything else. It's real easy to run down big units of warriors too.

With the new Firestorm Redoubt, Tyranids are AA capable again. SO glad they came out with that thing.


I dunno, it's not fool proof and you certainly have to play correctly. I'm just saying that I feel okay facing a lot of army builds.


Important note, still haven't played against wave serpent spam.

Tbh I think nid flyrants, provided they don't get grounded too fast, should do a good job vs serpent spam. You can close quickly, and your melee attacks will ignore the holofields as well as the serpent shield (at least I think this is true, melee attacks hit the rear armour after all). With that said they may have wraithguard inside to str 10 or insta gib you on the next turn. I don't play either so can talk about the match up too well.

Sure nids have some counters to some things. But they are well behind the times, and although the new biomancy skills did wonders for their MC's, they are still one of the lower tiers IMO.

Those flyrants will have to weather a *lot* of S6 shooting.

Those flyrants will have to weather a *lot* of S6 shooting.

Tis very true. But then again trying to shoot them down is pretty tough with most armies too, so it's not such a terrible strategy surely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean trying to shoot the serpents down is tough, so is melee on an FMC so bad.

Right but all of this is irrelevant to the discussion. Just because Nids find counters to three top armies doesn't make them a top army also. These armies are top because they have a means to deal with everything else and not everything else has a way to deal with them. So debating about whether Nids or Crons will win a game is pointless.

Deamons - 5 big flying deamons + 20 little ones just to contest. Very hard army to deal with. Last tournamet was:
1st-tau
2nd- 5 big daemons
3rd-necron
4th-5 big daemons(this guy lost to 2nd guy with deamons because he got worse gifts than him when they battled)

Right but all of this is irrelevant to the discussion.

Agreed.

Back on topic: Certainly 5 FMC's can be tough for many armies. However the randomness of daemons can really harm them even before the game starts.

Can you call an army that must roll 2 d6 every turn, with nearly 2/3 results negatively effecting them, a top tier army? Would they be considered top tier without fateweaver?

Daemon lists depending on biomancy and gift rolls can be top tier, but they can also be a severe let down.

To me top tier means that they must consistently come off better vs most other armies.
Consistency is word you just won't find in Codex Daemons. (fateweaver lists possibly excluded.)

1850
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 TL Devourers, Hive Commander
3 Zoanthropes in a Pod
3 Pyrovores in a Pod
Doom of Malantai in a Pod
Tervigon, 3 powers, adrenal glands, toxin sacs
Tervigon, 2 powers, adrenal glands, toxin sacs
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
25 Gargoyles
3 Spore Mines
2 Biovores
Firestorm Redoubt

That's my TAC list. I have 2 biovores to put inside the Redoubt because it only has one fire point...

I haven't played it yet. The list I had been playing had the biovores, a deathleaper and the zoanthropes didn't have a pod. They were there to buff the gargoyles. I also had a second Flyrant.

The idea is that I have 3 units which are going to drop in and psychic shriek you or hit you with some kind of attack that ignores cover.

I don't mean to make this into a 'my dad could beat up your dad' type argument. I'm just saying that Tyranids have perhaps the only true "take all comers" list as they are diverse enough to ignore the rock-paper-scissors of 6th ed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Blind Bill wrote:

Right but all of this is irrelevant to the discussion.

Agreed.

Back on topic: Certainly 5 FMC's can be tough for many armies. However the randomness of daemons can really harm them even before the game starts.

Can you call an army that must roll 2 d6 every turn, with nearly 2/3 results negatively effecting them, a top tier army? Would they be considered top tier without fateweaver?

Daemon lists depending on biomancy and gift rolls can be top tier, but they can also be a severe let down.

To me top tier means that they must consistently come off better vs most other armies.
Consistency is word you just won't find in Codex Daemons. (fateweaver lists possibly excluded.)

The warpstorm table only helps you most of the time if you're relying on FMCs. The only ones that would hurt is the one where you have to take a warp stability test or the -1 to invulnerable saves. The higher numbers and all of the attack results would only help I would imagine.

The higher numbers and all of the attack results would only help I would imagine.

Should be true, but sadly not. Only 10-12 are good results. 7 is nothing. All others (8/12) have negative effects for some or all units in the army.
Roll 3 is particularly bad vs FMC lists, as the only characters are your big 300 point monsters.

Others probably disagree with me on this, I just find it hard to place a list into top tier when it requires so many random rolls to be effective

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
1850
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 TL Devourers, Hive Commander
3 Zoanthropes in a Pod
3 Pyrovores in a Pod
Doom of Malantai in a Pod
Tervigon, 3 powers, adrenal glands, toxin sacs
Tervigon, 2 powers, adrenal glands, toxin sacs
10 Termagaunts
10 Termagaunts
25 Gargoyles
3 Spore Mines
2 Biovores
Firestorm Redoubt

***Snip***

Where are you playing in tournaments that allow apoc stuff? I've seen some including FW stuff that is "40k approved" but nothing for apoc....

I'd argue that Tau, Eldar and Daemons are the top 3 current armies, in that specific order as well.

Necrons are good, but I think that once enough time has passed for people to have fully assembled their new armies that Necrons will experience a fall from grace. All 3 of the above armies do well vs Crons and all 3 do well vs. the older codices.

Tau/Eldar specifically, is in my opinion the best overall army that one can field. The synergy between the two makes for a laughably powerful army.

I have played Tau since 3rd Ed and only in this edition have I not lost a single game (aside from Warhammer Worlds Killteam tournament a few weeks ago, I lost 2 games and won 6, came 6th out of 50 players, won best opponent too).

I DON'T use Aegis defence lines either. I think they are the stupidest thing GW came up with to be honest. I have a pool of around 8 opponents normally and 3 use Aegis without doubt and it's so tedious and easy to beat (especially as Tau, hello SMS and ML) that I wish opponents would not focus on castling and actually be aggressive.

I would definitely say Tau and Necrons are up there from my experience.

Tau, IG and Necrons are top-tier in my opinion.

Eldar possibly are, though it's too late to say I think. I've certainly had tons of success with them though, comfortably winning the 5 games I've had with them so far (been playing Orks loads recently )

For me, Daemons are prevented from being top-tier by the Warpstorm Table. It can just ruin your day. Too unpredictable, I'd say. Still a very strong army though.

roxor08 wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

Firestorm Redoubt

***Snip***

Where are you playing in tournaments that allow apoc stuff? I've seen some including FW stuff that is "40k approved" but nothing for apoc....

its not Apoc only, it is now a legal fortification in all games of 40k. Only the Aquilla stronghold (giant cannon) is Apoc only.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

The higher numbers and all of the attack results would only help I would imagine.

Should be true, but sadly not. Only 10-12 are good results. 7 is nothing. All others (8/12) have negative effects for some or all units in the army.
Roll 3 is particularly bad vs FMC lists, as the only characters are your big 300 point monsters.

Others probably disagree with me on this, I just find it hard to place a list into top tier when it requires so many random rolls to be effective

As you already mentioned, Fateweaver is almost mandatory if you want a consistent experience with Daemons. However I think you're overstating how bad the Warp Storm table can be, especially if you're running Fateweaver. I started playing Daemons in late 5th Ed, and I have always tended more towards Tzeentch-heavy armies, with a few Khorne units thrown in. The only Warp Storm results I don't really want to see are 2,3,4 and 6. 2,3 and 4 are bad for any Daemon army, and 6 (Nurgle's Rot) can hit a mono (or nearly mono) tzeentch list pretty hard. Every other has almost zero downside for me. Granted, that's just how it affects the lists I usually play, but out of 11 possible results only three are outright bad, and the other can be mitigated if you're running Fateweaver (I don't leave home without him).

Taking Fateweaver allows you to use the Warp Storm offensively, whether by outright re-rolling the entire result, or re-rolling just one of the dice to get something specific. For example: I was playing Eldar and rolled a 7 (6 and1), I used Fateweaver's Staff of Tomorrow to re-roll the one and got a 5 which wound up turning Eldrad into a Herald.

It does somewhat suck that you really need Fateweaver to smooth out the randomness in the codex, but I was already taking him anyway so I don't mind too much.


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 The Shadow wrote:
For me, Daemons are prevented from being top-tier by the Warpstorm Table. It can just ruin your day. Too unpredictable, I'd say. Still a very strong army though.

Like I said above, if you're taking Fateweaver the Warp Storm is a non-issue. In well over 50 games with that codex I have yet to get screwed over by the Warp Storm. I've come close, but being able to re-roll the whole thing (warlord trait) or just one of the dice due to Fateweaver's Staff makes the Warp Storm work for me.

Why are we all forgetting Matt Ward's infamous Grey Knights?


I mean.... they cost the same as normal Space Marines, just with Storm Bolters, instant death weapons, AP 3 in melee by default, deep strike.............. and more. And I haven't even mentioned Psyfleman Dreads or flyers.

Grey Knights can be pretty good, but they are NOT as cheap as space marines. GKs are a minimum 20 points each. Space Marines in either Chaos or Dark Angel flavour can be as cheap as 13-14 points. Even C:SM marines are a little cheaper than GKs, and get free special and heavy weapons.

GK advantages are significant, but they still die as easily as any other marine, once you start shooting them, which is what most of the armies listed as top tier in this thread are going to do...

Based on Playing Tau myself recently, and having lost a total of 1 game with them, marginally, against another Tau player... I think Tau are up there.

The farsight codex has made them even more crazy. Their weakness since 3rd has always been their troops and somehow holding objectives. Crisis suits are excellent in this role though, and also excellent at slaughtering the enemy.

Eldar allies are also fantastic for them. Why would you not? A farseer on jetbike and 3 windriders, plus warp spiders or a wraithknight to taste.

The only thing I can think of to potentially threaten this would be khorne dogs or necron wraith spam. Even then you're trying to deal with an army that's mobile, spectacularly shooty and has up to 5 MCs to block you if it wants to.

I used to think that all armies were fairly evenly balanced, with maybe a 20% difference in them. I am no longer sure if that's the case.

 Zaki66 wrote:
Why are we all forgetting Matt Ward's infamous Grey Knights?
I mean.... they cost the same as normal Space Marines, just with Storm Bolters, instant death weapons, AP 3 in melee by default, deep strike.............. and more. And I haven't even mentioned Psyfleman Dreads or flyers.

I played against a draigowing army list two weeks ago with my eldar and tabled everything but the paladin blob. I don't think it can compete.

I gotta agree with undertow on the Warpstorm being all that bad for Daemons (especially FMC daemons).

One poster stated that only 7, and 10-12 were not bad for Daemons. First of this is more or less not true.

So then only 33% are not bad.

Consider though the following, most FMC lists only have maybe 2 gods represented (lots of Mono-Tzeentch, some also have slaanesh or Nurgle, usually not all 3, pretty much no Khorne.)

In a mono tzeentch Army good results go to 5,7-12, or 69% positive.

WIth Slaanesh or Nurgle Your flying monsters are not hurt by the warpstorm because the resulting powers are blasts, and as such don't it FMCs. SO still 69% more or less positive.

Then you throw in Fateweaver, and chances of a bad result decrease even more. (You end up with almost a 90% chance of a good result, just using his re-roll warlord trait.)

Then throw in that if you are assaulting none of the shooty powers effect engaged units (so they usually hit backfield units and such, and not your Daemons if you assault.)

Throw in that they almost always hurt your opponent more than you....

Now I'm not saying Daemons are top of the top, but the warpstorm is not the reason why in most good Daemon lists.

Thanks for the great replies everyone.

Doing my research before I really get back into the hobby, allies look like they are a massive part of the game now, and shouldn't be ignored when talking about what's top tier.

Are the best allies just smaller forces made up from the best armies already mentioned or are there great allies from the normally lower tiered armies, cause the army as a whole isn't great but may have 1 or 2 really great units?

Necron players like to ally with CSMs mainly for the purpose of bringing a heldrake. And WGC was won with necrons with Ork allies. I can maybe see some Tau allied with eldar or vice versa being an extremely potent combination.

Allies are really contingent upon what army you are playing as your main force. If you have battle-brothers available, I recommend bringing them. Tau+Eldar armies are amazing because not only are they battlebrothers, they both have many undercosted or overpowered units and this allows you to get the best of both codices (Wave Serpents in particular mesh very well with Tau and give faster/durable scoring than what Tau have access to).

I think Ork allies are great, they can bring with them big, cheap infantry squads (good for elite armies that lack cheap troops) and can also bring along MANZ deathstars. Meganobz, imo, are a very undercosted unit that perform very well in the current meta (hint: Str. 7 is the most common weapon type). Bring them along with an IC and throw them in a battlewagon and you have a nice, durable beyond its cost pressure unit.

CSM/Daemon armies work well due to the the synergies they can bring.

Marine armies always do well to ally in some IG, or vice versa. The addition of ATSKNF to Guard units makes them quite good. This can also shore up some of the Marine player's weaknesses (efficient anti-flyer: Vendetta, amazing anti-horde: Manticore, lack of cheap bodies: Guardsmen).

Elgingo wrote:
Thanks for the great replies everyone.

Doing my research before I really get back into the hobby, allies look like they are a massive part of the game now, and shouldn't be ignored when talking about what's top tier.

Are the best allies just smaller forces made up from the best armies already mentioned or are there great allies from the normally lower tiered armies, cause the army as a whole isn't great but may have 1 or 2 really great units?

Necron players like to ally with CSMs mainly for the purpose of bringing a heldrake. And WGC was won with necrons with Ork allies. I can maybe see some Tau allied with eldar or vice versa being an extremely potent combination.

Stop. Any army that you buy will no longer be 'top dog' after a while.

If you bought a GK army in January 2012 you would be playing a powerhouse army. 8 our of the top 16 at Adepticon that year were GK. Today GK are a decent army, but I don't find them that challenging to play against.

If you rushed out and bought 3 helldrakes when the CSM codex dropped, your probably starting to notice they are less effective. New books have come out with counters, and people have learned to deal with them.

My friend plays orks -- arguably a bottom teir codex. He is an exceptional player and often wins the brackets hes in at GTs. This is because hes played the army for so long hes learned how they operate. Hes adaptive and changes his tactics to face todays meta.

The point is this : Don't spend lots of $$$ on an army because you think its 'win'. Pick an army you think is cool, and you could see yourself playing in 3 years time. Pick an army you think looks cool. Your going to get much more mileage out of that.
(reposted message because it applies here too)

 labmouse42 wrote:
I used to think that all armies were fairly evenly balanced, with maybe a 20% difference in them. I am no longer sure if that's the case.

 Zaki66 wrote:
Why are we all forgetting Matt Ward's infamous Grey Knights?
I mean.... they cost the same as normal Space Marines, just with Storm Bolters, instant death weapons, AP 3 in melee by default, deep strike.............. and more. And I haven't even mentioned Psyfleman Dreads or flyers.

I played against a draigowing army list two weeks ago with my eldar and tabled everything but the paladin blob. I don't think it can compete.

I always thought of it more as a rock/paper/scissors kind of balance. Some armies just fare better against others.