Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ratius wrote:
Can of Worms comes to mind....oh boy.

I think I/we should have just listened to this guy all along. It is pretty clear that many people see Tau as a problem and many others see no such issue.

If you are a casual player and TFG brings his tourny Tau army, don't play him. If you are a competitive tournament player, adapt - we've seen many FotM lists come and go. Only a few months ago I remember hearing about ravenwing armies rocking some tournaments at the time of their release... they are still decent now, but we have had a chance to work out strategies to take them out.

As for my personal contribution to the issue.... I'll stick to running my fluffy farsight enclave - never was a fan of riptides/pathfinders

I glanced at your username, avatar, and signature. I immediately ignored what you said.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I glanced at your username, avatar, and signature. I immediately ignored what you said.

Who me?

Tau are a shooty army. This is what they do.

DE have always had a uphill battle against Tau. Back when you could run 9 S10 Twinlinked Railguns, you autopenned most DE vehicles, and since most Tau players ran suit heavy with Plasma/missile or TL Missile, they could ID most anything you put on the table and that's with the "gakky" codex.

This is an adjustment period. We are still learning how to fight Tau/Eldar. There was an adjustment period for every other army/rule update.

If you're using an ADL and Tau stripping cover saves got you down, maybe look at getting a Skyshield. Tau can't strip an Invuln save. Not Yet anyways. NOTE: if you are looking to protect your Havocs/Devastators/Long Fangs, This also works on Helldrakes. I switched over to a Skyshield for my Tau, and it has not disappointed me.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Let me reiterate once again. I did not say Tau is unbeatable. My primary point is that, for me as a casual player who likes to bring balanced all-comers armies, or just models I own- Tau is NOT fun to play against, and is extremely good at dealing with lists not prepared SPECIFICALLY to take advantage of Taus very few weaknesses.

This is because it's very easy for "casual" players to assemble a battleforce army with little or no plan besides "move forward and declare charges". They don't have much optimization or synergy, but they can get away with it because the default marine army is based around a "do a little of everything" strategy. So units meet in midfield, dice are rolled on both sides, and the "casual" player probably does some damage before losing. Tau, as a dedicated shooting army, exist to punish that lack of coherent strategy by focusing entirely on one aspect of the game and ruthlessly dismantling an army that doesn't have an equally focused strategy to fight back with. Dedicated assault armies work the same way, just with an illusion of the massacre being a game because the "casual" player gets to roll some meaningless dice in the assault phase.

The solution to this is to understand that a "balanced all-comers army" is not "a little of everything". A focused Tau army that brings the appropriate shooting and denial choices to shoot any potential opponent to death is a balanced all-comers army. A marine army that brings a tactical squad, a scout squad, an assault squad, a tank, and a librarian is just a random pile of units.

That does not change the fact they are a mindless army that outright ignore a greater portion of the rulebook in favor of power gamers who just want to play yahtzee with themselves while their opponent pulls models off the board.

Only because you make the arbitrary declaration that shooting decisions (target priority, effective markerlight use, etc) are "no skill" while movement or assault decisions involve tons of skill. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

I think part of the problem is, people look at the Tau on paper and then completely abandon any assault based strategy and then try to castle up and play laser tag, which is generally a losing proposition for armies without the initials IG.

Overwatch is generally not that effective, even when its coming from 3 squads. Assaulting Tau can be done, but you have to be fully prepared for the assault. You have to fully commit and accept that you'll lose a few models, and possibly take "non-optimized" lists. Single MCs aren't going to get the job done. Small elite squads (5 or less) probably aren't going to do it either unless they are multi-wound and have a good save. Daemons are probably the best army to pull off an assault against Tau at the moment. Orks could be if people actually used them as a pure assault army (flat out a loaded battlewagon or two, jump out turn two, assault with 20-40 slugga boyz). CSM have a great way to assault Tau with a LR equipped with Dirge Caster and loaded down with 10 Khorne Berserkers. Throw Kharne in the mix and you're going to make a mess of that Tau castle.

Ha, classic. Being told that taking 'a random pile of units' is the reason I am losing against Tau.

There are a few issues here, which honestly speaks volumes about both the state of this game and the general mindset of the overly competitive players that lurk around here

So you are telling me that I can't just bring what I want within a book, that is supposedly balanced (based on points, right?) and expect to do decently? You do understand what is wrong with that statement correct? I have to bring optimized lists and only spam/take what is best to win? What a joke. People like you ruin this hobby.

Furthermore, I never even told you what the Tau player has brought. My most recent game he also took 'a random pile of units'. If his 'random pile of units' can outright destroy mine, which did in fact have a saturation of both AV and AI- what gives? It's not like I made mistakes, really. I was outshot, could not take cover, could not assault (combination of overwatch and 6e's 'random charges are hilarious' rules, and simply so much Dakka my 'amazing 3+ saves' didn't account for gak).

On the point on assault- there is a reason a lot of people lament the death of it in 6e- it is the part of a players turn that involves BOTH players rolling dice (other than your models taking saves). It is also far more dynamic than pew pew across the board, and is very visceral. It should be integral to a game of 40k, in tandem WITH shooting. 6e is a shooting gallery, and quite frankly it seems like the people that enjoy it the most are the competitive crowd. To each their own- enjoy your dumbed down experience.

So what kind of lists do you run? What kind of plan do you have?

Peregrine is EXACTLY right. This is more and more just a complaint that you can't mindlessly play and now you have to change and adapt.

Learn from your losses, don't whine.

I have not lost to the new tau yet.

All of their "strengths" can be said about many other armies, depending upon your perspective.

I hate to summarize it thus: play to the mission.

Best of luck

No, this is not an issue that I can't adapt or change tactics. I have no issue with that with any new books that have come out.

If an army can counter essentially everything you physically own in your army- what then? If an army basically obsoletes your entire collection to the point you cannot play a game against said army, if played well.. what then?

Why are you incapable of seeing this from a casual or 'fun' perspective? I don't care if I lose- I have never had as many issues with this specific army in my entire experience playing this game since 4e. There is very little I can do with the armies I own, and I have tried different lists- as has my main Tau opponent. The results are always the same.

I am not looking for people to say "well I have no issues with them, so there obviously isn't a problem!' I don't care if you are having success... you are failing to realize that for MANY people, Tau is simply not enjoyable to face.

Not everyone has access to limitless models to craft the ultimate list to 'adjust' to ONE FREAKING BOOK. A generalist Marine list that has had no issues against literally 75% of the rest of the armies that are even in this game has nothing on Tau. It is not my tactics, lists, or unwillingness to adapt. Don't assume I am tactically inept or don't know what I am doing.

What's your list? I'll ask again since you seemed to miss it.

And with most of the people here, it does seem most people don't have a problem. News flash, Xenos, your experience is not the world.

I play 'casually' and for fun. But I also don't use that as a crutch for not doing better or when I lose.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Dunno. Tau ("A supposedly shooty army" doesn't pwn the shooty game in this shooty edition of 40K half as much as Space Wolves ("A supposedly choppy army" pwn the shooty game in the choppy edition.

No problem from my side of things.

Also, Heldrakes... Fix those first.

Thanks.

in this case tau>heldrakes. sorry yes the drakes are good, against tau, NOT good... total waste of time unless i want him to interceptor them..

XenosTerminus wrote:
So you are telling me that I can't just bring what I want within a book, that is supposedly balanced (based on points, right?) and expect to do decently? You do understand what is wrong with that statement correct? I have to bring optimized lists and only spam/take what is best to win? What a joke. People like you ruin this hobby.

That's been true since long before the Tau codex. If you're playing against competitive opponents then taking "what you want" is a good way to ensure that you lose. The game is not balanced, and pretending that it is doesn't help you win.

On the point on assault- there is a reason a lot of people lament the death of it in 6e- it is the part of a players turn that involves BOTH players rolling dice (other than your models taking saves).

So what? If an assault terminator squad charges a squad of fire warriors the outcome is inevitable and the dice the Tau player rolls don't matter. It's an illusion of having a say in the outcome, but it's no more relevant than if you just pick some dice up and roll them a few times just for the sake of playing with your dice.

It is also far more dynamic than pew pew across the board, and is very visceral.

And that's your subjective preference. I think shooting is far more interesting fluff-wise, and assault is that annoying thing I have to put up with.

XenosTerminus wrote:
If an army can counter essentially everything you physically own in your army- what then? If an army basically obsoletes your entire collection to the point you cannot play a game against said army, if played well.. what then?

Except, as people have said before, Tau can't counter everything simultaneously. You may have bought a weak choice of units, but you can't complain about how "unbalanced" the game is just because you're not very good at list construction or don't have enough of a budget to keep up with the game.

Why are you incapable of seeing this from a casual or 'fun' perspective?

I am seeing it from a fun perspective. Some people just have fun in different ways.

Not everyone has access to limitless models to craft the ultimate list to 'adjust' to ONE FREAKING BOOK. A generalist Marine list that has had no issues against literally 75% of the rest of the armies that are even in this game has nothing on Tau. It is not my tactics, lists, or unwillingness to adapt. Don't assume I am tactically inept or don't know what I am doing.

And, as I said, you can get away with that because most armies in the game are other generalist marine armies. Generalist armies don't punish you as harshly for poor optimization because they're probably going to meet you in midfield with at least a few units and allow you to have the illusion of participating in the game. Specialized armies, whether pure shooting, pure assault, pure flyers, whatever, are not that forgiving.

The solution here is to stop playing an unfocused marine list and trying to do a little of everything. It's just not a good strategy.

Peregrine, I may disagree with you from time to time, but that was sublime. I love it.

Most recently I played as BT (and before anyone says it's just because the book is old- vanilla marines/DA have the same issues)

Marshal
-Artificer Armor
-Power Fist
-Storm Shield
-Terminator Honors
-Adamantine Mantle- He goes in a drop pod

Emperor's Champion
-Accept any challenge, no matter the odds- He goes in a drop pod

Crusader Squad of 10 with CCWS, a Power Weapon, and a Melta Gun in a drop pod

Crusader Squad of 10 with CCWS, a Power Weapon, and a Melta Gun in a drop pod

Crusader Squad of 5 with a Lascannon, Plasmagun, and bolters in a Rhino

Venerable Dread with a Twin-linked lascannon/missile Launcher- Tank Hunter Veteran Skill

5 Assault Termies with Furious Charge- 4 Lightning Claws and a Thunder Hammer/SS- These go in a LRC

LS Typhoon x3

Combi Pred x2


As you can see I have a large saturation of long ranged firepower- much of which can also target infantry. The drop pod squads/LRC Termies go for objectives or harass while back field shoots. It's a pretty balanced list with about as much as the book has to offer, save shooty termies with tank hunting cyclones, but this list doesn't lack AT.


There are a multitude of things Tau has to outright just gak on this list. The issue is, I can't think of any other way to approach it. Rhinos? garbage. Drop Pods aren't working. I cant outshoot him.. footslogging is out of the question. Literally the ONLY thing I have seen survive relatively long are AV 13/14.. which I have heard people say Tau have issues with. This just forces me to reiterate my entire point... I would have to spam something to beat them, or list cater. That is not what makes this game fun... at all

XenosTerminus wrote:
Most recently I played as BT (and before anyone says it's just because the book is old- vanilla marines/DA have the same issues)

Here is your problem. You have a lot of points tied up in assault (and probably need to assault to win), but you haven't committed your whole army to it. You have a lot of points tied up in long-range shooting, but don't have enough long-range shooting to win the game by itself. You have a drop pod element, but not enough of one to really overwhelm your opponent. You have some vehicles to make your opponent's anti-tank weapons effective (especially Tau STR 7 spam), but not a full commitment to a mech list that would give you proper target saturation.

It's a pretty balanced list with about as much as the book has to offer, save shooty termies with tank hunting cyclones, but this list doesn't lack AT.

And this is why you lose. A "balanced" list with a little of everything the codex has is a weak list because it has no focus. You can do everything, but you're not actually good at any of it. It's weak against every opponent, Tau just make that weakness more obvious.

And this is why 40k has progressively gotten worse. When a balanced list is considered bad. This is the direction this game has gone, and it is unfortunately extremely disappointing. I supposed I should have expected to get bombasted by a bunch of win-more waac players on a 40k forum. These places are, after all, generally full of self-entitled and opinionated 40-somethings who evidently have VERY different perspectives on what is fun (rolling a gak ton of dice in the shooting phase and wiping out poor 'unfocussed and terrible 40k players').

So your suggestion, then, is to literally devote my entire army to ONE strategy. Ok... great. So it will be great against specific things I encounter randomly, but terrible against others.

Rock, Paper, Scissors argument once again. You did, however, prove one of my points. Tau punishes 'unfocussed' army lists. Which is why they are not fun to play against in a casual setting. Perhaps that is all I own? Well, then there is an army that can literally guarantee a win simply because the overall game direction and balancing is to the point you have to spam the best units/make incredibly boring copy/pasted lists to win.

Now I am starting to understand why other people, despite the games having terrible models, always suggest other games (balance).

You must be a wonderful opponent to play against. Is namecalling and whining how you handle losing, too?

Or is this the fun and casual way of playing and am I just doing it wrong?

XenosTerminus wrote:
I supposed I should have expected to get bombasted by a bunch of win-more waac players on a 40k forum. These places are, after all, generally full of self-entitled and opinionated 40-somethings who evidently have VERY different perspectives on what is fun (rolling a gak ton of dice in the shooting phase and wiping out poor 'unfocussed and terrible 40k players').

Well, that just thoroughly demolished any credibility you might have had. There's really no point in continuing this discussion if you're just going throw personal attacks at anyone who doesn't play the game the way you want them to.

Credibility? It's a forum for a game that involves plastic soldiers.

It seems like no matter where you turn most conversations about this game spiral out of control into opinionated pissing contests between nerds. I have no issues debating, the issue here is that most people reply with the classic 'my experience says otherwise', automatically dismissing what the other person stated is an issue for them. Either that, or they offer their 'expertise' in list building and army methodology- all very situational and not entirely helpful based on the points I raised.

If it matters at this point some of my most memorable games were in fact, losses. No complaints- just good times with some beers. Could care less what the outcome is, because the games were close, and most importantly fun.

Ever since Tau came out (and to a lesser degree IG) I have just not enjoyed fighting them. That is largely because I, as you already pointed out, like a game with variety. Why have a codex filled with interesting unit choices and great models if you will never see 90% of them?

Clearly I enjoy assault more than shooting, but that is not to say I dislike shooting entirely. I simply think that gunlines, or 'shooty' armies, are boring, uninspired, and often utilize some of the cheesiest rules to outright ignore some of the rules in the game. Do other people enjoy this? Definitely. I can say with relative confidence, however, that the majority of people rarely enjoy facing off against gunlines- it makes for very dull games.

Well, you're the one asking us to take you seriously. So yeah, credibility is kind of important. And since you're now in the insults and 'you're all just nerds' phase of the argument, I sincerely care less and less about your opinion.

People like things that you don't like. Deal. Or complain and call people nerds when they don't immediately take your side.

I think we need to open another thread, only this one would be:

Why Eldar has gone too far.


I'd have to agree with the OP. The new Tau are not unbeatable, but they're good enough so that it really isn't fun for a lot of people to play against them. Even a mediocre Tau list can beat another decent list assuming the skill level and dice rolls of both players are about equal. Of course each player is different - competitive players may actually enjoy the challenge of playing against a good tau list/player - however, the majority of gamers out there are more casual players. The imbalance of Tau - their ability to ignore/bypass many of the normal mechanics of the game - often can make this an unenjoyable experience for these types of players. And it only gets worse if the tau player is good and brings a more optimized Tau list.


The same can be said of the new eldar, necrons and to a degree, the new daemons. All these armies are tough for most casual players to play against. The more optimized lists run by decent generals then make it tough for even the experienced players to play against. Honestly, I am not sure why the new Xenos books are getting more and more powerful whereas the MEQ armies have been mediocre (and this includes Chaos Marines). For those hoping that the new Space Marines will be potentially more powerful than any of the Xenos books, I say to you....don't hold your breath.

I really could care less if you take me seriously or not (my future dreams and ambitions of becoming an internet phenomenon and 40k scholar are ruined)

My main purpose was to gauge what the general populace on here thought about Tau. I think I proved my point. The extent of my 'solutions' can be summed up with the following:

-Don't play against the opponent
-List tailor
-Spam/optimize
-Play different armies because 40k is evidently just an overpriced and flashy version of rock paper scissors with dice

Unfortunately, none of these really solve the problem. I guess I can just play against him and let him pound me into the pavement- I don't want to tell him he can't use his army, afterall

Tau have gone no further than any of their predecessors. Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Necrons have all held top-dog spot at one point or another. Tau are simply on the up and up right now because they are a meta-spoiler shooting army. Tactics that are good against Tau tend to do poorly against other armies, while tactics that do well against others do poorly against Tau.

I find, from personal experience, that Tau tend to be weak against AV14, struggle against mass AV13, and have infantry that is about as tough as Eldar guardians when taking their leadership values into account. Even their battlesuits, sans the riptide, are deceptively fragile. S8+ weaponry makes a mockery of crisis suits and broadsides. Leman Russes and Land Raiders are just bad business all around for Tau unless they are really lucky.

Paradoxically enough when I see Tau lose, they tend to lose at range.

People also have a tendency to freak out and lose their calm against Tau shenanigans. They psyche themselves out about certain units or abilities, lose track of objectives, or place their units poorly. It helps to take a deep breath, step back, and do a little calm critical thinking. JSJ, massed pulse-fire, ignoring cover.. these are all things that Tau have been doing for quite some time.

My only criticisms of the Tau as a whole at the moment are the riptide and allies. The riptide's 2+ save and 72" range on the ion accelerator is a bit much for a unit that can have interceptor for only five points and that has JSJ while allies-wise I feel that Tau make out like bandits. Farseers, for example, in a Tau force are incredibly mean.

XenosTerminus wrote:



The book seems to pride itself with outright ignoring a large portion of the rulebook itself. Cover saves? Nope. Deep Striking/Outlanking? Nope. Assault? Nope. Line of Sight? Nope. Fliers? Nope. You name it, Tau has an answer for it. This is problematic in what should be a strategic game.

You realize, that tau have the option for all of this, but no way to feasibly employ them all at once in anything but massive point scales?

If you really think tau are op then tell that to my thudd guns and breacher drills

What a friggin' whiner.
Asks for advice on how to beat Tau.
Refuses to listen to advice.
Insults people who give advice.
Says he doesn't need advice.


What???

Yeah....at this point it's clear XenosTerminus doesn't want to change or adapt different tactics in his list but rather wants to alter the game itself to fit around his list and way of how he thinks the game should be played.

If that's not incredibly conceited/arrogant I don't know what is...

Tau are just fething boooooooring to play againts... Both of my main opponents play Tau and my Nids beat them regularly, my Daemons are 50/50, my Eldar and Orks get trounced. But none of that matters because they are 100% boring to play against...

Ive lost plenty of games with my Tau, and against armies that are supposed to be sub-par (like BA). Why? Simple, on more than one occasion i would make a gamble, commit resources to a specific task, then if i could not achieve said objective it would all come tumbling down on me. Thats the thing about Tau, they can hit hard, out maneuver, and really stick it to their foes, but once you get your teeth in them, they are gone! Opponent manged to get a few death company in close combat, then it was all he needed to sweep my entire fire line. Once he took out my Ethereal most of my Firewarriors fell off the board from their poor leadership save.

So, what is needed for you to win is to exploit your enemies weaknesses!! Land terminators in his back field, then come up with some more from a land raider from the front. Making tau split fire is going to slow them down, allowing something to break through. If you want to beat them you will need to be sneaky as well. So, if they deny cover saves, dont even bother with cover! Move flat out and get right in their faces. Or simply hide out of line of sight, make them come to you with their gunlines. Better yet, bring alot of Marines and neophytes to the party. Move them forward in huge groups. Eventually someone is going to make it your to enemies side, and he isnt going to have enough guns to stop that much 3+. Plus your leadership is solid, so you wont be falling back anytime soon. For me, one of the greatest Tau weakness is their pisspoor leadership. The new ethereal is pretty much the only thing that has saved that for them. Which for you, should mean PRIME TARGET. Also, don't concentrate on hard to kill stuff like Riptides. Sure they rock, but they can only rock one shot at a time, so stay away from it and take out its supporting markerlights and eliminate his troops. Ive yet to lose a Riptide, and thats because my opponents know it will be a pain to kill, and take out my scoring units instead. As for supporting fire, simply have a disposable unit go first, making have to decide whether or hes going to overwatch him with everything or wait for the next one. Also, dont forget the handy heavy bolter! That gun can pummel Firewarriors and you can bring more than enough to the fight. Don't forget that Crisis suits are not tough, so a crack missile in the behind will instant death them!

Thats just a few of the ways you can use to beat a Tau opponent. Unlike some older armies, they do not have an I WIN or a I LOSE button, so you will need to be a savvy opponent to win. And before you say anything, you can have fun and be casual with just about anything, you just need to make good tactical choices and, of course, make good rolls. I would suggest that you re-evaluate your strategies, come up with some new ones, experiment with new types of play, and really enjoy yourself (variety is the spice of life). Even if you do lose as long as you made your opponent pay for every piece of ground he took it will all be worth it. I lose as much as I win since my opponents are excellent commanders and rarely am I disappointed. Each game you lose should teach you something you need to win the next,