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Well i can remeber being able to purchase a box of 20 Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops for $50.00AuD, then GW split the box up and then we got 10 Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops for $36.00, yes from $2.50 per model to $3.60 per model overnight, so just using a calculator that was an overnight increase of 44% in one night.

LoTR players had to cop from GW when they halved their 24 figure boxed sets at $41.00 (about $1.70 per model) to 12 figure boxed sets to $36.00 ($3.00 per model), that is an increase of 76.5% per model overnight.

But that happens

Either you cop it or find another hobby to occupy your time with.

I think there's room for a price increase on Tacticals just because they are the most popular. When demand for something is high, it can support a higher price.

Do I think it'll be cut down to a 5 man box? Probably not. The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

So new sprue with new special weapons, 10 in a box, £30. That's my prediction based on previous releases.

I don't think orks and guard indicate a trend of halving model count for 40k, but in normalizing troop choices at 10 in a box.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

None of those are the "bread and butter" troops though. Eldar Guardians, Necron Warriors, Chaos marines and fire warriors are all 10 to a box.

 gorgon wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I've been keeping my mouth shut all thread, but the ignorance on display here is astounding. The amount of condescending bull you squeezed into just a few sentences blew my mind.

You think Black Templar players are upset because some specific BT build might be invalidated? And you think if it happens it's their own fault because they went "over the top" with a list that required "one character" to make it function? Dude, try invalidation of their entire army, from all their special traits right down to their basic weapons loadout on their standard marines. And their only fault was buying a codex they liked and believing GW when they said they weren't Squatting any more armies (they might not truly be Squatted, but depending on how the rules shake up it could be close enough for some people).

We've heard rumors that supplements will be somewhat more involved than Iyanden going forward.

So hypothetically speaking, let's say they have their chapter trait in the SM codex (Crusader?). Then in the supplement are the rules for the Emperor's Champ (with a vow system that you get if you take the Champ) and a Crusader Squad Troops choice with CCW options and the ability to attach Scout squads in some way.

Would that really be a travesty for BT players? Certainly it forces them to buy two codicies, which isn't ideal. But doesn't something like what I outlined (obviously roughly) cover the most important bases?

Here's another wild speculation. What if the new Tac Squad (box and rules) has options for CCWs? Then they wouldn't even need Crusader Squad rules in the supplement, and GW wouldn't need to to add another box for BTs. Probably won't happen, but it'd make some sense.

I imagine it would work easier the other way around- put Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and the Emperor's Champ in the SM codex. Give Helbrecht Righteous Zeal as the chapter/warlord trait. Make Vows a buff bubble on the Emperor's Champion like how Tau Ethereals work now. Let Tac squads swap bolters for ccws. Have the supplement cover the proper crusader squads (tac troops plus carapace armored troops, Land Raider Crusader transport option, Relic Wargear like Holy Hand Grenade and Cenobyte servitors.

On Tactical squads, I would guess 10 marines (as 10 is a tactical squad, while 5 has been noted as a combat squad for years now) for £27-30 pounds as either a single 3 frame sprue or more likely for tac marine, a 2 frame sprue doubled in the box (so they can split it into 5 man units for things like battleforces as needed) like the Space Wolf pack. Then a 5 man Sternguard/Vanguard as a single 3 frame sprue kit for £20-23 like the Death Company kit.

Army Invalidation is only a thing if you're a competitive tournament player. if you're more casual, as long as nothing is outright removed (which i do admit happens sometimes), then army invalidation on edition change isn't really a thing.

I too can build an army around tac squads, assault squads, rhinos, and dreadnaughts.

Rolling BT in with SM isn't going to invalidate the models. It invalidates a style of army completely that makes said army fun. It isn't your list being invalidated because you went heavy for one options, its the entire style you love being invalidated.

It would be like... making space wolves shave their beards. Sure the armor looks the same, but there just isn't any soul left.

Also, reducing the product line (even by rolling it in), is not a good business model. If GW were smart, they would keep the BT separate. They already have plastic bits for BT and they require the purchase of the main box to use. For the price of them to publish a codex they get more sales than squatting the army.

Also I wouldn't say they are run by smart people. Maybe lucky people, but not smart.

Sweet, another thread committed to discussing price and personality quirks.

I can understand when people throw a fit when a they change the whole rare/special squads make up after every edition.
Especcially for players who rely on certain special units. I play always tactical heavy armies, so it doesn't affect me much.

 -Loki- wrote:
Army Invalidation is only a thing if you're a competitive tournament player. if you're more casual, as long as nothing is outright removed (which i do admit happens sometimes), then army invalidation on edition change isn't really a thing.

My Lost & The Damned and non-GK Inquisitorial armies would like to object!

 -Loki- wrote:
Army Invalidation is only a thing if you're a competitive tournament player. if you're more casual, as long as nothing is outright removed (which i do admit happens sometimes), then army invalidation on edition change isn't really a thing.

exactly right! I quit worrying about Armies and just started build highly converted units for fun

Look I have 3 units of Sternguard all with Custom Melta combis took a 100 dollars worth (by old Bits sales prices) of meltas just to get the formula Right to build these things… and they look super sweet.

I have over 40 Combi weapons model and another 20 in bags.
IF my sternguard become obsolete… I knew what I was doing when I made them and I built them for fun.

Cool part is I just collect bits I got the parts to make over 300 marines… so when the game flips I just buy a box for bits, bare heads and different helms.

I’m excited to see what new bits come in the sternguard/tactical squad box. My bet is 5 man units with enough bit to build tactical/sternguard or assault/vanguard… think it over.

sparkywtf wrote:
I too can build an army around tac squads, assault squads, rhinos, and dreadnaughts.

Rolling BT in with SM isn't going to invalidate the models. It invalidates a style of army completely that makes said army fun. It isn't your list being invalidated because you went heavy for one options, its the entire style you love being invalidated.

It would be like... making space wolves shave their beards. Sure the armor looks the same, but there just isn't any soul left.

Also, reducing the product line (even by rolling it in), is not a good business model. If GW were smart, they would keep the BT separate. They already have plastic bits for BT and they require the purchase of the main box to use. For the price of them to publish a codex they get more sales than squatting the army.

Also I wouldn't say they are run by smart people. Maybe lucky people, but not smart.

You want CC monster zealots in a BT army? run it using Ba codex, With Wolves as Allies. A codex is just a set of rules to play by… now with allies the Skys the Limit. Stop crying. Soul???? Man make a DIY chapter and your own fluff and soul.

@Ironwill13791
Yeah they looked really cool. thanks for the exalt Playboy!

Does anyone know if these Supplemental Codexes will have specific unique HQs included with them or will all of the unique Characters rule be available in the starter C:SM?

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

I stand corrected.

Yippee, i am looking forward to this, i can put together my Son's of Achaylus Space Marine Army, this Space Marine Army will my army before the Sons of Achaylus turned to Chaos and to become the Bonecrushers of Achaylus..

But it seems that i am going to get severely wallet whacked, but you hafta cop it, oh i love plastic crack.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well, that post hurt my brain. It would be a lot easier to take your post seriously if you wrote something semi-normal, instead of Jersey-Shore style jibberish. I assume you're telling us we're all idiots for not "getting" GWs strategy as GW is "run by smart people." There's a difference between invalidating playstyle (which GW does) by shaking up the meta, and completely obliterating full armies. This is what us BT players are concerned about-not having to buy extra stuff because some things don't work as well as they used to, but rather that our entire army will be nothing more than a different, pretty scheme. But seriously...adjust your post. Make it look semi-grown up. Excuse me while I go scrub this tumor off of my brain.

First Stop letting my post do damage. It is all normal and it’s nothing like the Jersey Style lingo.
I’m not talking to “All Of You” I’m talking to people that do not grasp the Business model of GW.
Black Templars ARE NOT a big seller so they won’t waste time…
But it’s more about the way they do things and the way your SOoooo Surprized when you're not even on the radar much less in the line for your set of rules.
Or
When Someone is shocked that you can no longer use this tank or this unit and you bought 3000 points of that one sided thing.
I could build a sweet list with Allies say BA and GK and make it rock as BT… but that’s me… sorry you have no slang words and can’t communicate without it being in essay form. I bet you’re the life of the party…

sorry YOUR army is involved, get in line with the next tyranid codex when there’s no Zilla army build and some guys has all Zilla,

The point is if you don’t know how GW does it… you loose.

Either:
A. find a new army and retire the old one
B. Use a Valid Codex to make the current models you own Work
C. Play What edition your force belongs in

But for god sake either enjoy the Hobby you have chosen or pack in in Pal!
Snoochies .

 frozenwastes wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The new paradigm seems to be 10 figure troop boxes and 5 figure elite boxes, with prices normalizing towards Australian levels.

Dire Avengers. Troops, 5 to a box. Necron Immortals. Troops, 5 to a box. PAGK. Troops, 5 to a box. Chaos Cultists. Troops, 5 to a box unless you're getting them from Dark Vengeance. SM Scouts. Troops, 5 to a box.

Although for the sake of transparency, Immortals and PAGK can both be built as other non-troop units.

I stand corrected.

Also, to be fair, 5 cultists are only ten USD as opposed to thirty-five.

As Bryl pointed out though, each of those armies has a 10 figure troop box. I just don't see them cutting this one down to five. Of the armies with plastic troops, only Grey Knights is missing a 10 figure troop box.

Tactical squads wont go to 5 for £20 for one very simple reason, 5 men is a combat squad.

I can totally see £30 Tactical Squads and £20 5 man Plastic Veteran dual kits though.

Cant wait to see what the new toys all look like

Space Marines aren't my main army, but I will gladly bite the bullet for a Ltd Edition codex if there's a Salamanders one

Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Not sure of the point here? Nothing you said actually disproved Calgars statement. It just looks like you wanted to waste twenty minutes of your life typing an essay outlining how much time you spend with your toys.

As someone who actually knows how to write one, calling that an essay is borderline insulting.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

 5deadly wrote:

First Stop letting my post do damage. It is all normal and it’s nothing like the Jersey Style lingo.

 5deadly wrote:
sorry you have no slang words and can’t communicate without it being in essay form. I bet you’re the life of the party…

Excessive spacing and ad hominem attacks... I don't mean to be an ass (which I probably will be anyway), but you really do need to work on your communication.

That said, going on about how foolish it is for Black Templars players to use their only Troops choice is rather... silly, shall we say?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

Truly inexplicable, if you ask me. I'm not really a marine player but BT seem ideal. They have all the cool toys and some unique bits, they have as interesting a backstory as it's possible for marines to have, and FFS they're the easiest chapter to paint if you're not much of a painter - you can just prime them black, drybrush grey, and paint the eyes. They're the penultimate starter marine army IMO.

Yes, Ouze, some people like BT. I'm guessing not enough buy BT to make it worth GW's time and effort.

 Ouze wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

Truly inexplicable, if you ask me. I'm not really a marine player but BT seem ideal. They have all the cool toys and some unique bits, they have as interesting a backstory as it's possible for marines to have, and FFS they're the easiest chapter to paint if you're not much of a painter - you can just prime them black, drybrush grey, and paint the eyes. They're the penultimate starter marine army IMO.

Black and white looks like an easy colour scheme; it's not. The fact that it's much harder to use washes on black (in my experience, at least) also means that you can't use the wash short-cut. My Imperial Guard, for example, are much easier to paint to an acceptable standard than my Templars.

As for the "cool toys", Templars do miss out on a lot of stuff. I'm not trying to be a negative Nancy or anything here, but I probably am anyway.

 Breotan wrote:
Yes, Ouze, some people like BT. I'm guessing not enough buy BT to make it worth GW's time and effort.

Whether that's due to the ancient rules, Sisters of Battle-level prices for Troops or something else is something we don't know though.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Not sure of the point here? Nothing you said actually disproved Calgars statement. It just looks like you wanted to waste twenty minutes of your life typing an essay outlining how much time you spend with your toys.

As someone who actually knows how to write one, calling that an essay is borderline insulting.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Are BT really that unpopular? I seem to find a lot of people who love them.

If you look on the Internet, you can find anything you imagine. Yes, even that.

What is this internet you speak of?

I would hardly call BT the worst selling product of GW though which some posters seem to indicate.

But what am I saying, of course they are the worse selling product, why else would/might they produce a limited edition cover on the codex for BT players.

 Breotan wrote:
Yes, Ouze, some people like BT. I'm guessing not enough buy BT to make it worth GW's time and effort.

That's only because GW chose not to sell BT by making their first actual codex pants. Since the army didn't have an established cult following comparable to other SM chapters back then, they got dropped like a hot potato in favour of better MEQ lists.

Does anyone else think the grav weapons sound a bit gimmicky rather than good? A gun that makes Terminators as fragile as a breadstick but turns Ork Boyz and Guardsmen into powerhouses...far too situational when we already have low-AP, high-STR gear. I just can't see, unless they have some ridiculous new traits yet to be revealed, why I'd choose them over plasma or melta.

My guess is that Tactical Squads will stay as a 10 man kit. The question is how they will incorporate the grav weapons. I would guess they'll simply slightly extend the special/command sprue in the tactical box to include a grav gun and a grav pistol (so expect a price rise if they do?). As for discerning between which are the older tactical boxes and which are then new "grav" type, I would expect to see them change the box art Eldar-style.

Regarding dual kits, I just looked at the Hunter on Lexicanum and that leads me to think the other AA tank will be a Rhino variant, so a dual kit seems likely to me.

The new unit I'm most interested in is the shooty version of the "mini-dreadnought." If I had to guess what rules they would have, well, ATSKNF etc obviously, but I'm guessing 2+ save, Relentless, probably T5 or W2 and perhaps the ability to fire two weapons.

 5deadly wrote:

You want CC monster zealots in a BT army? run it using Ba codex

I actually considered this at one point, because in terms of tabletop efficiency it's a good path to take currently, and can still have a lot of the BT flavor with some optional Codex and BA-specific stuff thrown in the mix.
- BP+CCW troops via either assault marines or Death Company. The latter could be used to represent a "Marshal's household" army where the Sword Brethren use Death Company rules. BT players have difficulty using their PA SB models because they're not great and the elite slots are better used for termies, but using the SB models as powerful DC in a troop slot? Nice. Only problem is the twin lightning claw model, since for some reason DC doesn't get claws. Could be used as a Vanguard veteran, though.
- Red Thirst works great for Templars - just think of it as a sort of "Unbound Zeal" type of thing - some squads going above and beyond in zeal
- Like BT, you can get Land Raiders as dedicated transports - Redeemer would be so nice compared to the somewhat lackluster (at least against other MEq) LRC in terms of actually doing damage instead of just transporting!
- Basically all the BT-specific kits can be represented by the BA codex, with WYSIWYG gear. The EC is sort of the odd man out - but technically I guess he could just blend in as a sergeant or even as a basic captain.

You don't have the EC special rules or neophytes mixed with initiates, but other than that it can work wonderfully and be more versatile than an actual BT list. But personally in the end I opted out of doing this. Didn't want to buy the BA Codex and while I could memorize the relevant rules without owning it, it just felt like a cop-out in the end. But that's more inside my own head kind of thing rather than an actual problem. Still, it was tempting in any case, since it would've allowed me to use Sternguard and Vanguard in my lists too, and I like those units/models. Not to mention assault marines as troops, yummy! Nobody ever uses assault marines, but I still like them a lot. Just very rarely use them with the BT codex because other units tend to eat up the Fast Attack slots, especially now with Storm Talons in the mix.

But funnily enough, if BT do get rolled/turned into a C:SM supplement, in many ways that path will probably lead to similar list possibilities as using the BA codex would. No Death Company for CC awesomeness, but otherwise.

Overall I hoped BT would get a separate Codex again, but if we get rolled, as long as the supplement retains the BT flavor of things I don't mind that much. I need SM codex too, in any case.

As for how much BT sells? Hard to say on the casual crowd, but they certainly do have a cult following. One only needs to look at the B&C ETL challenges and compare their points to other chapters

 ace101 wrote:
Does anyone have rumors about how Chapter tactics work with generic characters? Will it be similar to the 4th edition ones or predefined like 5th? I'm very interested, as to the replicability of Blood Ravens, BLUUD REHVENS!!!

You want lots of librarians and to steal things from other chapters?