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I've been thinking about grav weapons and I've finally worked out why they are needed. We have a plethora of high toughness models with good to great saves, however Space Marines don't have a huge amount of poisoned weapons or other weapons for non special ICs that wound on 2+/3+ etc., hence grav weapons filling that gap. I'm betting they are assault weapons meaning they bridge the gap between poisoned and heavy weapons.

I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

 protomane0 wrote:
please note, this a literal copypasta off of facebook, apparently an american 40k podcast "40kradio" is responsible for this, so all credit goesto them, and the hapless soul i copied this off of (hes a friend, im sure he wont mind =p


"Centurions:
The guys are a heavy support choice. They're a marine cased in heavy armor with powerfist with lascannons under slung on one pic and heavy bolters on the other. Think of a heavier terminator armor that a marine straps into. I think this is where Chaos Oblits came from. They look to be on 40mm and I'm really starting to dig these models.

Plastic Chaplain:
Like other plastic HQ's that have come out. He is armed with a Crozius and bolt pistol. He has ornate armor and he is in a dynamic pose.

Plastic Librarian:
Same as above regarding previous HQ releases. He is helmetless and he's armed with a staff. He also has a wicked cherub flying off his pack pack. I really like this model.

The Hunter:
I believe this will be anti-air rhino. Its a cross between Vindicator Heavy Armor and a whirlwind style weapon mounted on the back. It comes with two cannons that have three barrels.

Vanguard Plastic:
I saw two separate pics one armed with TH/SS and one with a pair of Lighting claws, finally. Same Marine bodies just with some new iconography to freshen up the models.

From what I have seen so far the Marine release is going to be huge for GW. Sorry about no pics but I promised."

Wow hope that's not that accurate or at least not the end of it, it would be better if the vets have different weapons in the box than thermies, and I'd have hoped the mini dreads would be more specialised, of rather have two heavy bolter or lascannons than one of each.

Looky Likey wrote:
I've been thinking about grav weapons and I've finally worked out why they are needed. We have a plethora of high toughness models with good to great saves, however Space Marines don't have a huge amount of poisoned weapons or other weapons for non special ICs that wound on 2+/3+ etc., hence grav weapons filling that gap. I'm betting they are assault weapons meaning they bridge the gap between poisoned and heavy weapons.

Sounds like that is their likely purpose, and they could probably reliably hurt something like a Riptide or a Wraithknight (depending on if grav guns allow saves). But if they are put alongside plasma etc as 1 per squad weapons (2 if you take the pistol) it still seems like you'd be better off taking Sternguard and forcing saves on the big monsters. Still willing to be pleasantly surprised by them though.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

I want units that are actually usable in other then pure fluff gaming.

Anyone want to bet that the new codex will be the same horse manure of unused units that the current one is?
Overpriced vanguards that nobody ever uses, legion of the damned never, ever seen in competitive play (hell, I havent even seen those minis in fun fluff gaming due to their insane overpriced point costs) and so on and so on.
I cant even remember the last time I actually saw a chaplain leading an army for example.

It would be fun to actually get more units that are equally viable in competitive gaming then the usual thing where tacs are taken only because you must have 2 troops and the rest being some sort of 1-2 unit spam.
Lets hope the new SM wont become like the dark eldar where only one effective build is ever seen in tourneys.

The new beefed up armour miniatures/units sounds like a fun thing but it will probably only become just another weak gimmick like the dark angel shield-and-mace terminator squad, looks awesome, sounds fun but nobody takes them since they are not the slightest bit effective.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
I just want to see my Thunderfire Cannon get the ability to be bought in a unit of 1 - 3.

That would be the bane of my enemies.

9 Thunderfire Cannons makes me just a little bit randy, not gonna lie.

 Fezman wrote:
Sounds like that is their likely purpose, and they could probably reliably hurt something like a Riptide or a Wraithknight (depending on if grav guns allow saves). But if they are put alongside plasma etc as 1 per squad weapons (2 if you take the pistol) it still seems like you'd be better off taking Sternguard and forcing saves on the big monsters. Still willing to be pleasantly surprised by them though.

I think you'll be able to take multiple grav guns in a veteran squad, possibly forcibly paired up with a boarding shield ala Forgeworld. The new plastic vets, I'm assuming its one combined set for Sternguard and Vanguard, make me think the easiest place to add in the grav guns is that box set.

Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Thunderfire Cannons will probably take a 50% points increase.

They will nerf what has been popular and make the new kits 'compulsory'.

Either way I am pumped about the stern/vanguard combo box. If it is the quality of the DC box, money will flow.

I doubt you will be able to take TFC in units of 1-3... GW seems to be getting away from the whole "spam the most powerful unit in your codex" thing. I for one have been pleased to see that all the codecies have been becoming less and less competitive and more and more "beer and pretzels". GW claims that their products are meant to be used in a casual setting where the impressive paint job/modeling effort of an army is more important than the functionality of the list you built. Hopefully "powerlisting" like taking 9 TFC's is dead.

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Indeed! I think I ought to start playing double-FOC or Apoc exclusively at this rate, because Fast and Elite fill up so fast too.

 SickSix wrote:
Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Raptors and Warp Talons would like to have a word with this statement...

Yeah, Raptors are interesting, but not great. Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them. Maybe in a Zone Mortalis game or something.

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed, rather that GW have realised how good they are and decided to make more money from them.

In other words - I'd be more than happy to see a straight up copy and paste job for Sternguard, but that might be because I've got 20 of them and just finished converting a Pedro count-as...

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed,

Models that get cool new multi-part plastic kits never get less than the best when it comes to their new rules. (sardonic laughter)

 kronk wrote:
Yeah, Raptors are interesting, but not great. Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them. Maybe in a Zone Mortalis game or something.

Mark of Tzeentch with an allied grimoire is the only idea I've considered trying.

I still cannot fathom putting power armor on... to strap into power armor on top of it...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Vanguard will be the hotness because they get a new kit. Sternguard will probably be nerfed somehow, I know it makes no sense but GW has a proven history of doing this as described by the other posters.

Raptors and Warp Talons would like to have a word with this statement...

As would Mutilators and the DA flyers...

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Given that Sternguard are also supposed to be getting plastics, I'm going to lean towards optimism and hope they are not getting nerfed,

Models that get cool new multi-part plastic kits never get less than the best when it comes to their new rules. (sardonic laughter)

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

Also in the eldar codex most of the models that are now considered very very good were old models. Things like warp spyders, wave serpents and bikes.

Chaos has the helturkey, but other than that the best units are still typically the old models

Tau, the riptide is very very good but in no way mandatory, other than that I think everything else that is really good is old models. The pathfinders got new models but are now cheaper moneywise then they were before if I am remembering right.

Just doesnt seem to add up. But maybe I am missing something.

pizzaguardian wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I just don't get the drama over the Black Templars.

You are a successor that never should have gotten a supplement in the first place and always should have just been a few pages in the SM codex. Flesh Tearers don't have a standalone codex and aren't crying for one. Neither are DA and their vast number of unforgiven successors. Hell, if the Wolf Brothers had not been disbanded, they wouldn't rate a standalone or supplement either. Hopefully BT get rolled rightly into the SM codex and balance is restored.

Wait, what?

Sir do you have any real knowledge or BT 's or know about the DA codex?

To be honest it has long been time to roll all the marines codices into one. Dark Angels didn't need more than 4-5 pages of the Marine codex. Same with Black Templars. The book should be a one stop shop of all the Astartes rules and be done with it.

The only army that needs its own rule book was the Demon hunters and it should have been the Inquisitorial codex covering all that stuff in one.

More books makes more mess. Easier to balance rules when you don't have 10 marine army books.

 Leth wrote:

Just doesnt seem to add up. But maybe I am missing something.

It adds up to GW not repeating things they've done in the past with kits like the Trygon where they're a lot better than the older models. GW seems to have heard the complaints about making older models useless but swung it pretty far the other way were the new models aren't really needed.

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Cut LR and make it a DT, perhaps move Whirlwind or Pred to FA?

 kronk wrote:
Warp Talons... I can't think of a time that I'd want to take them.

Well, if they had grenades they'd be decent, considering a jumpy Vanguard veteran costs the same as a Warp Talon, but has BP+CCW instead of 2 lightning claw attacks. Of course, the very cheap bikes not to mention stupid Heldrakes make fast attack slots scarce outside of Apoc. I only have a single Heldrake though, and even when I do get around to actually building my CSM I won't get more because I despise having even one because of how ridiculous they are especially now (got it before the 360 buff). So with one Heldrake and one squad of Bikers, I'm not sure what the last one will be. Could be Spawns if I ever buy some (expensive, ugly things) to run around with my Juggernaut Lord, or could be Talons/Raptors.

Buuuut that's going a bit off topic. I do hope the Vanguard vets get a slight point decrease, especially in jumpy mode. Jump packs are currently technically worth 7 points for an assault marine in that 5x7 points for jump packs removed = 35-point Rhino for free. But of course considering a basic assault marine only costs 18 points with the jump pack, 30 for an extra attack and special weapon options is a bit much. Especially considering it's not worth taking all that many special weapons, you end up being better off just taking TH+SS terminators instead given the cost. As it is right now, 25 would be a fairer cost for jumpy Vanguard compared to other C:SM units, but since other codices drop model point costs constantly... hard to say. DA assault marines are 17 points, so no huge drop there. Oh, but let's not forget another thing about the Vanguard unit cost - right now, its sergeant costs 45 points. Yes, that's with a power weapon, but it also means a jump sergeant is 55 points, which gets a bit ridiculous for a single-wound sergeant with a basic power weapon, considering he is mandatory yet his stats are the same as the rest of the veterans'. So you basically pay 10 points.... for the ability to challenge? Doh.

Getting the new Vanguard kit would also help with making the unit cheaper, considering the current Vanguard kit comes out at a whopping 250 points for the 5 models, since it has 1 relic blade (could be counted as power sword to get rid of 15 points), 2 power swords and 2 plasma pistols, plus the jump packs. Of course Finecast can be relatively easily converted to get rid of unwanted weapons, but even so.

Anyways, pointless rant that is known to anyone anyway, but that's what posting when tired causes

OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for shitstorm of critique...)

Nope, completely agree. I actively avoid playing competitively, I win some, I lose some, but the easiest way of avoiding getting frustrated by trying to play a poor ruleset for competitive gaming is not to play it competitively.

That said, I do want to feel I've got a chance every time I set up, so I do try and make an effort with my lists, I just don't tend to spam, and don't play one list exhaustively, I field what I fancy and change it around nearly every game.

aliusexalio I could not agree more with you. Who cares if warp tallons are not the "Best" option? They are by far the coolest one. Same is said for the warp fiend or whatever the giant walking thing is that looks sooooo coool! I for one am more into building a 1850 or so army that allows me to swap and change things at lower points levels and making them look super cool then, building a new army that I can then collect and paint making them look even better than the last one I built.

I'm all for a fun army, and rarely play a minmaxed list. But if the units you like and find fun in theory gets your army wiped off the table in practise, it's not so fun. In other words, a "beer and pretzels" army only works if all parties involved have the same idea of what that even means. Like for some people they swap like a single unit into something else "less optimal" and that's supposedly that, and then they bring 3 flyers when they know I have 0 zero air defense (as I did at the time).

I simply refuse to play against those armies. A friend of mine wants to min max and pick the best option while writing off some of the cooler options as useless. In our small gaming group he often finds that if i chooses not to play against him then he really has no one to play with and ends up just doing what is cool rather than what will smash the opponent into oblivion. If you get into a game with someone who brings 3 flyers knowing that you have none tell him "no thanks" and find someone else to play with.

 tvih wrote:
I'm all for a fun army, and rarely play a minmaxed list. But if the units you like and find fun in theory gets your army wiped off the table in practise, it's not so fun. In other words, a "beer and pretzels" army only works if all parties involved have the same idea of what that even means. Like for some people they swap like a single unit into something else "less optimal" and that's supposedly that, and then they bring 3 flyers when they know I have 0 zero air defense (as I did at the time).

agreed, i guess having a gaming group who all have a similair attitude works the best. Our group has an understanding that we all play for fun and we are looking for epic battles, yes offcourse you will run into a flying hive tyrant with iron arm or a soulgrinder of nurgle with 2+ cover save, but those are exceptions and actually have this "'wow"' factor because they are special.

I love some of the less cost effective units (I bought and painted 6 nurgling bases and they honestly suck compared to my other options...) but.. they are fun, i like m in my nurgle army and they stay close to my fw great unclean one....

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.