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 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

I'll second that, actually. Not a hugely popular opinion, but I think that Ward did a great job with the current Codex, and I'd be more than willing to let him do it again.

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.

I blame the Dark Angels. They're a chapter never really did have a sense of humor.

Marines make a piss poor beer and pretzels army at present; I don't want a hardcore army, I just want a fun army which doesn't lose constantly.

I can mess around with my Guard, and keep it fluffy and I'll generally still get a good fight, even against some pretty min-maxed armies. I likely won't win, but I'll at least make them work for it.

With marines, you just die if you don't have a flawless list or get great rolls and the other guy gets awful ones. I've seen one powerful marine army in my life, using a Badab War HQ which gave the army stealth running 2 thunderfires and a bunch of shooty marines behind aegis lines or in ruins, and it dies to heldrakes real bad, or a mobile close combat army (daemons give him quite a bit of trouble, as do Tau, which just ignore his cover, like a boss).

Fluffy doesn't work for marines at present, and I'd consider a successful codex one which allows that and to still stand a chance of surviving. I've got a small, but reasonably varied foot-marine army, and I'd like to be able to use it without basically throwing the game away or having to build more of those godawful drop pods.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Marines make a piss poor beer and pretzels army at present; I don't want a hardcore army, I just want a fun army which doesn't lose constantly.

I can mess around with my Guard, and keep it fluffy and I'll generally still get a good fight, even against some pretty min-maxed armies. I likely won't win, but I'll at least make them work for it.

With marines, you just die if you don't have a flawless list or get great rolls and the other guy gets awful ones. I've seen one powerful marine army in my life, using a Badab War HQ which gave the army stealth running 2 thunderfires and a bunch of shooty marines behind aegis lines or in ruins, and it dies to heldrakes real bad, or a mobile close combat army (daemons give him quite a bit of trouble, as do Tau, which just ignore his cover, like a boss).

Fluffy doesn't work for marines at present, and I'd consider a successful codex one which allows that and to still stand a chance of surviving. I've got a small, but reasonably varied foot-marine army, and I'd like to be able to use it without basically throwing the game away or having to build more of those godawful drop pods.

I know that feeling.

My last game with my BA, didn't know which army my oppo would choose from his main two or three. So I took some bits and pieces, some anti tank, some anti air etc etc.

He chooses his Nids, sets up with Swarmlord, Flyrant, 2 Tervigons and a bunch of Gants and Gaunts.

Turn one I just remember thinking "how the hell do I deal with this?!"

Needless to say, I didn't!

spamthulhu wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I just don't get the drama over the Black Templars.

You are a successor that never should have gotten a supplement in the first place and always should have just been a few pages in the SM codex. Flesh Tearers don't have a standalone codex and aren't crying for one. Neither are DA and their vast number of unforgiven successors. Hell, if the Wolf Brothers had not been disbanded, they wouldn't rate a standalone or supplement either. Hopefully BT get rolled rightly into the SM codex and balance is restored.

Wait, what?

Sir do you have any real knowledge or BT 's or know about the DA codex?

To be honest it has long been time to roll all the marines codices into one. Dark Angels didn't need more than 4-5 pages of the Marine codex. Same with Black Templars. The book should be a one stop shop of all the Astartes rules and be done with it.

The only army that needs its own rule book was the Demon hunters and it should have been the Inquisitorial codex covering all that stuff in one.

More books makes more mess. Easier to balance rules when you don't have 10 marine army books.

Marines is an easy copy paste job. No reason not to multiply this template for GW. In rules and models. Double win.

Maybe its time to roll the non imperial books into an "adversaries of the god-emporer & friends" dex.
Because more books = more mess.

The only army who needs a codex is:
- one that has been white dwarfed.

Anyone else has a book to play from. The Inquisition especially deserves to return to the place they had in 3rd ed: as part of the BRB. As possible allies. Not as Army. ID also remove the LotD from C:SM and put them into an "allies" section.

Just for once, could we stop 'rolling' anything anywhere before we have more than a rumor of a cover ( and No pics ) ?

azreal13 wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Heavy support: Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwind, Land Raiders, thunderfire cannon, devastators, and on top of that a 'hunter' and 'centurions' ? Seems a bit crowded.....

Cut LR and make it a DT, perhaps move Whirlwind or Pred to FA?

A whirlwind isn't fast...right now. But maybe to become the second half of a new AA tank?
Predators should be fast. But FA?
FA : marines+bikes, marines+speeders, marines+jumppacks, maybe the fliers, etc.
El: termies, veterans, dreads, techmarines, etc
Until GW condenses a few of these there isn't a free spot.IMO.

I'd consider the Devastators in trouble if they add heavy weapon tooting heavy infantry in the same slot.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Yea, most of the new fliers, the new on foot demon engines, some of the dark angels stuff would like to have a word with you.

The word is sarcasm, which I made explicit in my initial post though apparently either you, the Dark Angels or both missed it.

I blame the Dark Angels. They're a chapter never really did have a sense of humor.

Awwww man. Let the Dark Angels off this one time. Don't they have it hard enough trying to hunt down their traitorous brethren in secret. They probably think sarcasm leads to heresy.

Ooh, Devs, ASM and Tacs all Troops?!

Controversial, but somewhat fluffy and not necessarily too OP if (IF) the points are balanced right.

Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

Is there any way they can make vanilla ASM not completely useless? Cause having read the DA book (which most certainly will have the same point values) I just don't see how...

Making them scoring would damn well help!

 tvih wrote:
Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

As a BA player I wouldn't mind at all, since our ASMs are only (well, were only) good cause of DoA, FC, FNP, and the discount we got for switching jump packs for a Razorback, and I highly doubt vanilla ASMs are getting any of those.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Well, frankly something needs to be moved to troops at this rate! Assault marines would indeed be a good choice (even with all the bitching that would cause from the BA camp), and even Devastators might work.

As a BA player I wouldn't mind at all, since our ASMs are only (well, were only) good cause of DoA, FC, FNP, and the discount we got for switching jump packs for a Razorback, and I highly doubt vanilla ASMs are getting any of those.

Don't forget special weapons options as well.

 azreal13 wrote:
Ooh, Devs, ASM and Tacs all Troops?!

Controversial, but somewhat fluffy and not necessarily too OP if (IF) the points are balanced right.

Should this happen, we might already have had a clue about it...the new Captains that came out with the Apocalypse release. There were Devastator and Assault versions...

They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.

Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops

The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make 10 man tactical squads unlock Devs and ASM's as troops, in the sense of how many tac squads you take allow you to take dev or ASM squads as troops.
Example, I take two two man tac squads, I am then able to purchase 1 ASM and 1 Dev squad, or 2 ASM or 2 Dev squads as troops
The limit is then that you can't take more than two of each, so if you take three Tac's you can't take 3 Dev's (as there aren't 3 squads in the standard company format). It fits the fluff and would solve the over crowding.

Sounds like a pretty good idea, and would prevent tacticals from becoming obsolete. Or at least this could be applied to Devastators, I'm not sure if it's needed for assault marines.

In any case let us hope they came up with some way of organizing the units reasonably. Having too many things packed into Heavy or other specialist sections ought to be bad for sales too, since why buy more models into a FOC group that you already have more than full

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I don't play 40k, but am interested in the codex for fiction and art (though it's been a while since I bought one, but I figured I'd pay attention to the Space Marine one because they're iconic). I'm also interested in the miniatures for use with other rules (something part way between a terminator & a dread sounds awesome). So yeah, I'm totally unconcerned with the 40k game performance.

That said, I wish 40k could be a game that can be played beyond the beer and pretzel level. I'm always on the look out for truly robust miniature gaming rules and would love for 40k to become something more than the non-serious beer & pretzels joke that it is. Well, I guess it's not a joke, but a very useful tool for selling people loads and loads of miniatures. So it works for GW's purposes.

My number one wish for the Codex is that Captains, Chaplains and Chapter Masters aren't absolutely awful. Codex Dark Angels demonstrated that GW's rules department are still complete idiots and still didn't know how to make either decent, and they even managed to make Chaplains look worse in the process by giving people 65 point prescience Libby's.

I don't give a toss about the new units, most of them will probably end up mediocre anyway. I have low hopes for Dread Marines and the new AA tanks. If the new weirdly sized Termie/Dreadnought thing is an MC it will probably be good, if its a vehicle it will almost certainly be naff. Another thing that would kill it is if it suffers from the 'delusional designers image of firepower' as I think of it. The Storm Talon, from purely a model perspective, looks like a really fierce and dangerous assault craft with its twinlinked gatling cannons and other guns. In the reality of the game, its not that impressive at all.

The new Chapter Tactics without SC's rule sounds awesome and I really hope its true.

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

I wish you lived near me…
I love DIY chapters, cool themes, fluffy units that fit the idea of your force and just having a fun game.
I pretty much quit because it became this Maximum death tween angst mouthy punk fest.
I hate sore losers and power gamers and guys that want to turn a 2 hour game into a 3 hour game because of the rules lawyer bit… that and the business model ruined me being an active member of my local and playing every weekends.
I wish more people had you attitude.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you have a generalist collection instead of a specialized collection then you handle the edition changes with much less purchases being required.

For example for my space marines I have a decent sized motor pool, a couple of every heavy weapon, a bunch of veterans of different stripes and a bunch of different HQs which will be magnetized for different configurations. When the new codex comes out I am looking at MAYBE 200 worth of additions(including codex), depending on how expensive the new armor guys are(if they even look good).

But then again I like to have a large diversity of stuff I can bring to the field instead of one uber build that never lasts more than a few codex’s much less an edition.

It also follows that things that become good wont even get a new kit. Look at warp spiders, guardians, wave serpents, and a bunch of other things from codex eldar that are good but without a new kit? Tau there was nothing mandatory in their new models to make a good list, are riptides good? damn right but are not mandatory.

And that’s how I do it… the basics won’t go anywhere and can be effective in the right hands.
I add other units as spice…

I also Stand by the It’s not your List it’s You…
Tactics play a huge role… poor tacticians can face poor tacticians MinMax, role the dice and march the field.
I’m thinking before the battle and every piece of terrain I place is for a reason. Every unit I set down Is sat there to move from A-Z and do its job…
I think some people just sort of rely on special rules to get them by…
Beardy, Sniviling sore loser, power gamer, might not even get a full game out of me… I’ve scrapped a Couple of games mid turn, 45 mins in and walked because the guy I was playing was 2 or more of the above qualities.

Fezman wrote:OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Well...Ward did an ok job with the 5th edition one, not sure if i want him again. Personally, id like to see Phil Kelly write our Codex, especially after the good job he did with CSM (like it or not, CSM did get better with their dex, just ask the flaming turkey).

5deadly wrote:

 aliusexalio wrote:
Having read a majority of the replies above, does NOBODY here care about simply having a thematic army? A beer and pretzel army? An army that simply looks great because its got cool units and is painted well? An army with a story? An army like no other?

I might be wrong, but I guess a majority of the people that frequent these forums and bother reading and replying to these threads are metagamers which are very very much concerned with having the best army and winning.

Now nothing wrong with that, but it would be nice to see some people simply happy that GW is updating gaming material, providing variety and being creative.

Warhammer is not only points, math, statistics and winning for me. I am really looking forward to making a fun army and trying out different themes and... ill probably enjoy winning with my ''special"' army that with my "'meta"" army.

(braces for gak storm of critique...)

I wish you lived near me…
I love DIY chapters, cool themes, fluffy units that fit the idea of your force and just having a fun game.
I pretty much quit because it became this Maximum death tween angst mouthy punk fest.
I hate sore losers and power gamers and guys that want to turn a 2 hour game into a 3 hour game because of the rules lawyer bit… that and the business model ruined me being an active member of my local and playing every weekends.
I wish more people had you attitude.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you have a generalist collection instead of a specialized collection then you handle the edition changes with much less purchases being required.

For example for my space marines I have a decent sized motor pool, a couple of every heavy weapon, a bunch of veterans of different stripes and a bunch of different HQs which will be magnetized for different configurations. When the new codex comes out I am looking at MAYBE 200 worth of additions(including codex), depending on how expensive the new armor guys are(if they even look good).

But then again I like to have a large diversity of stuff I can bring to the field instead of one uber build that never lasts more than a few codex’s much less an edition.

It also follows that things that become good wont even get a new kit. Look at warp spiders, guardians, wave serpents, and a bunch of other things from codex eldar that are good but without a new kit? Tau there was nothing mandatory in their new models to make a good list, are riptides good? damn right but are not mandatory.

And that’s how I do it… the basics won’t go anywhere and can be effective in the right hands.
I add other units as spice…

I also Stand by the It’s not your List it’s You…
Tactics play a huge role… poor tacticians can face poor tacticians MinMax, role the dice and march the field.
I’m thinking before the battle and every piece of terrain I place is for a reason. Every unit I set down Is sat there to move from A-Z and do its job…
I think some people just sort of rely on special rules to get them by…
Beardy, Sniviling sore loser, power gamer, might not even get a full game out of me… I’ve scrapped a Couple of games mid turn, 45 mins in and walked because the guy I was playing was 2 or more of the above qualities.

Most of the people in my meta are like this, but we also try to out do each other. Its not like people aren't competitive (not WAAC or the poor sport). I've supposed its a vocal minority that want ROFLStomp FOTM army like tau is, but better than tau. Me personally, i want good Chapter Tactics so i can finally run Blood Ravens, not Ultrasmurfs wearing BR colors.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

Maybe not Troops, but scoring I could see as a possibility. I don't think it's a coincidence that the FOC fits a Space Marine battle company in its entirety, plus some support as is. Also, the thought of Devastators as a Troops choice is kind of a terrifying natural conclusion to the las/plas minmaxing in 4th edition, and I don't think I'd like to see more of that.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I have a gut feeling the new Captains we got for the Apoc release will unlock devs and ASM as troops, much like Master of the forge did with dreads.

Maybe not Troops, but scoring I could see as a possibility. I don't think it's a coincidence that the FOC fits a Space Marine battle company in its entirety, plus some support as is. Also, the thought of Devastators as a Troops choice is kind of a terrifying natural conclusion to the las/plas minmaxing in 4th edition, and I don't think I'd like to see more of that.

What happened in 4th? I wasn't around for it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
What happened in 4th? I wasn't around for it.

Before 5th edition introduced the need to take full-sized squads to unlock special and heavy weapons, 6-man Tactical squads with plasma gun and lascannon ruled the tabletop, due to Mathammer theorests having decided that this was the ultimate effective use of points.

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

My lord are you jaded. You're just going overboard, chill out.

Did I miss some Ward related SoB debacle?

Grey Knights were not 'pure' enough and had to slaughter some SoB as they were pure as the driven snow, and then proceeded to destroy some evil-McNasties from the warp. Kinda funny actually, as if the GK needed to be more pure ...

Am quite curious about the Centurions though ... harkening back to the whole 'Legion' and Roman empire thing ... just what I feel is going on.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
OK, here's a question: who would you like the author to be?

I'm going to come out and say I want Ward to get the gig again...because the current C:SM is the book I've most enjoyed playing.

Yes, let's have Ward write the codex. Then we can read about Ultramarines killing Khorne with their bare hands while wearing Sisters of Battle Skins for capes. And then there'd be a story about an Ultramarine captain who single handidly destroys a Tyranid fleet by throwing a Sister of Battle into their main exhaust port.
And then a story about an Ultramarine Librarian who, kills a Sister of Battle and....

TRIVIA TIME!

1. Ward wrote the 5th Edition Space Marine codex (it was apparently intended to be Codex: Ultramarines but due to some changes on how they wanted to handle the Codex Marines they got shoved in there right before it had to go to print), and Sisters DID NOT get mass slaughtered in it.

2. Ward wrote the new and revised fluff for the Sisters in the WD Codex, and it's FRIKKIN' GREAT. I play Sisters and I don't hate ANY of it. I REALLY love the bit in there where Sisters make it to a Shrine World that had been lost in the Warp, make planet fall, recover artifacts and GTFO before the Grey Knights show up and lamely glass the planet of Daemons. (This is actually significant if you recall that the Grey Knights use the Emperor's Tarot and their super-duper fast ships to react to everything before it can get out of hand, but the Sisters beat them there by DAYS and were done and gone by the time the Grey Knights hit the system).

3. The Bloodtide was the only instance in the Grey Knight codex where the Sisters were killed and the only reason it comes off as so bad is because no one proofed it and revised it. It's supposed to show how pragmatic and "take-no-chances" Grey Knights are but the writing needs some more work. It's not nearly as bad as some of the stuff out there when it comes to the Sisters (I'm looking at you Word Bearer series that talks about corrupting and then killing a coven of Sisters!).

Seriously, it's 2013 and Matt Ward has done a fair amount of good work that -AT LEAST- balances out anything he's done wrong, so quit focusing so hard on the bad all the time. I don't know about anyone else but I do rather tire of the hyperbole all the time about Ward and all the "travesties" he's committed. He's just one man whose doing his job the best he can under harsh deadlines and while juggling multiple projects at once AND nothing he does gets into a book just because he wrote it. Final call goes to Jervis, and there's even talk that ideas have to be vetted by the other devs too.

GW, please be gentle with my wallet next month... I kind of want everything on that list!

Hell. Brace yourselves for not-centurions in 3rd market.