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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Do you think grav weapons will have the haywire rule, given their fluff?

More than likely. THe rumored stats are already divergent for a 6thedition grav weapon family, in HH: Betrayal. I find it odd that the same weapons published by the same parent company will have 2 different rules.

 ace101 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Do you think grav weapons will have the haywire rule, given their fluff?

More than likely. THe rumored stats are already divergent for a 6thedition grav weapon family, in HH: Betrayal. I find it odd that the same weapons published by the same parent company will have 2 different rules.

Could be that these while they are considered part of the family, are divergent weaponry. Kinda like how a stalker bolter is different from a normal.

About Legion of the Damned: I am wondering if the Apocalypse entry is a preview of what we might see for them. Soul blaze, flesh bane and ignores cover would be pretty epic.

Too much worrying and not enough Everyone needs to calm down and think that these are space marines... Yes, they are going to have some overpriced units, and yes they may have units that you are going to at...but overall I'm willing to bet its going to be a great book.

S4 makes the most sense to me for grav weapons. That would make it 2+ against 2+ sv, 3+ against 3+, etc. etc. to 6+ against 6+.

It would also make sense to make it blast. If you're increasing the gravity I suppose you could make a gun that hits one guy, but it makes more sense that the gun would fire some sort of hyper dense matter or something and effect a piece of terrain and the models within it.

I guess against vehicles you could make it S4+1 per every AV above 10. How potent it was against vehicles would be dependent on whether you count the front AV or rear AV for strength, and whether you hit against front or rear armor. If you went front armor-front armor or rear armor-rear armor you'd probably just glance on 6s, but if you went front armor-rear armor, you'd probably have a solid chance of landing hits (like against a Leman Russ tank, it'd be S8, but hitting against rear armor 10).

Could be a fun weapon. I imagine you could hypothetically load up on some combination of heavy bolters and grav weapons and be capable of wiping out all kinds of infantry.

 Kirasu wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm very curious to know what's in the Sternguard kit to make it $50.

The Grey Knight kit comes with enough wargear to make 1 of 3 units with almost all their options, and is $35. The Sternguard had better come with enough gear to strike down the Emperor Himself should they choose it to justify that.

I would hazard a guess we'll get one of each combi, powerfist, power weapon, 5 bolters, some extra heads and pouches and crap. The combi weapons will influence people to buy the kit or bits to equip sargeants, characters etc. I would be surprised if it includes special weapons. Oh yeah I almost forgot about the awesome heavy flamer. IMHO, of course.

Please don't try to justify the cost by comparing it to a kit that gives just as many if not more options I imagine. The justification makes no sense, it's just price gouging and people will buy it.

Isn't the current 5 man Sternguard squad $45? Adding in shipping you're looking at over $50 already......

 SickSix wrote:
About Legion of the Damned: I am wondering if the Apocalypse entry is a preview of what we might see for them. Soul blaze, flesh bane and ignores cover would be pretty epic.

I would be great if they gave them more versatility.

My guess for Grav Weapons is that they're strength is * and their to wound roll is equal to the target's armor save. It's not like it's a complicated mechanic after all.

I imagine they'd have to have some effect against tanks, after all, if a Terminator has a bad day when gravity gets focused around you, i imagine a leman russ would have the same problems when the same happens to it.

Crazyterran wrote:
I imagine they'd have to have some effect against tanks, after all, if a Terminator has a bad day when gravity gets focused around you, i imagine a leman russ would have the same problems when the same happens to it.

If you want to get into the science then it should affect mass, not armour. Assuming it does damage based on an object's gravitational well, it would destroy MCs and tanks while doing bugger all to marines/terminators.

I suspect they came up with a game mechanic, then slapped the word "grav" on it to make it seem cool and technological. I doubt its in-game effects reflect the actual physics of space-time.

This is 40K.

Space-time is well and truly bollixed anyway, as are the laws of physics

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I'm very curious to know what's in the Sternguard kit to make it $50.

The Grey Knight kit comes with enough wargear to make 1 of 3 units with almost all their options, and is $35. The Sternguard had better come with enough gear to strike down the Emperor Himself should they choose it to justify that.

I would hazard a guess we'll get one of each combi, powerfist, power weapon, 5 bolters, some extra heads and pouches and crap. The combi weapons will influence people to buy the kit or bits to equip sargeants, characters etc. I would be surprised if it includes special weapons. Oh yeah I almost forgot about the awesome heavy flamer. IMHO, of course.

Please don't try to justify the cost by comparing it to a kit that gives just as many if not more options I imagine. The justification makes no sense, it's just price gouging and people will buy it.

Isn't the current 5 man Sternguard squad $45? Adding in shipping you're looking at over $50 already......

The current Sternguard squad is also Finecast, which means GW applies metal costs to them. With the new kit, you're looking at $10 plastic models, thus the general sense of irritation emanating from the thread. Well, that and Matroishka Marines.

xruslanx wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
I imagine they'd have to have some effect against tanks, after all, if a Terminator has a bad day when gravity gets focused around you, i imagine a leman russ would have the same problems when the same happens to it.

If you want to get into the science then it should affect mass, not armour. Assuming it does damage based on an object's gravitational well, it would destroy MCs and tanks while doing bugger all to marines/terminators.

I suspect they came up with a game mechanic, then slapped the word "grav" on it to make it seem cool and technological. I doubt its in-game effects reflect the actual physics of space-time.

exalt for physics

I like the gun versions of centurions and hope their rules are decent though if they have enough shots to kill a full squad of power armour then if they have haywire for the gravity weapons they'll be blasting landaiders in one salvo!

I am amzed at how little attention the old school AA tanks are getting. They both remind me of some of the epic sclae tanks and I love that GW is pulling out the old RT style chassis. It gives some credibility to the idea these are recently rediscovered STC designs. Assuming that is the sane fluff route they take.

Still want the old Anti-Grav Rhino back.

barnowl wrote:
I am amzed at how little attention the old school AA tanks are getting. They both remind me of some of the epic sclae tanks and I love that GW is pulling out the old RT style chassis. It gives some credibility to the idea these are recently rediscovered STC designs. Assuming that is the sane fluff route they take.

Still want the old Anti-Grav Rhino back.

What are you talking about? These tanks have always existed. We have always been at war with Eurasia.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
My biggest issue with them being AP2 is that it would make Plasma seem kinda redundant. It would also give access to an AP2 anti-infantry gun with no drawback (gets Hot!), while still killing things just as effectively.

My prediction thought of that.
Plasma is still S7, so better against MC's with a bad save, better against vehicles and just as good against anything at T5 or below.
A plasma gun would also have a bigger VoF.
That results into situations where you want plasma and other situations where you want melta, rockets or Grav.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I can't see Grav weapons being AP2 or 1. If it wounds based on armour save, then I imagine it works by having a greater kinetic impact caused by the mass of heavier armour slamming into the center of the shot. On the other hand, lighter armours wouldn't have as much inertia as they are lighter, so they don't have as much kinetic energy transfered from the shot. Gravity is a constant acceleration between objects based on Newton's law of universal gravitation, although it's a bit more complex thanks to relativity, so I imagine a grav shot to be similar in effect to the singularity grenades in borderlands. If that were the case, then I could see the profiles like this:
Grav-Pistol S4 AP4 12" Pistol, Grav
Grav-Gun S4 AP4 24" Assault 1 Blast Grav
Grav-Cannon S5 AP4 36" Heavy 1 Large Blast, Grav

Maybe S5 on all of them, but that makes a bit of a difference between 3+ and 4+ saves. We'll see.

I think they also need S5, so they wound 3+ armour on a 2+
The battle rep had them wipe out Space Marines, that's quite hard on 3+
S5 also gives them some chance at shooting vehicles.
I do agree on the range and so, but a gun with a blast seems too strong.

Also, AP4 would make these weapons useless and I thought it was confirmed that they are AP2?

And with S5, AP2 a Large Blast would be overpowered against TEQ-squads, so that would make it a normal blast.

Edit: never mind that.
I did some new calculations and it might be S4, so it won't outshine plasma at almost any role.

What do you think cost will be for Grav weapons? I have a feeling they'll be like Plasma weapons: same S and AP across, just different ranges/weapon type, with a uniform cost for all of them. That being said, if they are as strong as the WD battle report suggests, I an easily see all of the variants (pistol, gun, etc) costing 25 pts each.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
What do you think cost will be for Grav weapons? I have a feeling they'll be like Plasma weapons: same S and AP across, just different ranges/weapon type, with a uniform cost for all of them. That being said, if they are as strong as the WD battle report suggests, I an easily see all of the variants (pistol, gun, etc) costing 25 pts each.

If it costs 25pts for a Grav Pistol/Gun, they will never see use. Ever. Plasma Guns cost 15pts in CA, and, presuming SM get the same prices as DA, Grav Guns would then be useless for their cost.

Maybe 25ppm to upgrade a Centurion to have twinlinked Grav Cannons, or whatever it is.

Nevermind, misread a post.

Does anyone else look at the Centurions and think this is what GW will base a new Obliterator on?-I could sure see someone convert them that way.

Not unless they significantly change the fluff for Obliterators...

 aka_mythos wrote:
Does anyone else look at the Centurions and think this is what GW will base a new Obliterator on?-I could sure see someone convert them that way.

Nope!

Obliterators are basically Terminators who have fused with their suits and have absorbed technology/weapons along the way, Centurions are Marines in Power Armor piloting a kind of exo-suit that carries guns or breaching drills. Not really the same thing when you get down to it.

Plus Centurions are a bit bigger.

My GW guy is planning to take one of the Centurion boxes for the store and paint them up proper so that people can actually see what they look like. He knows that GW has their "paint crappy and take bad pictures of stuff" moments.

 ace101 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Do you think grav weapons will have the haywire rule, given their fluff?

More than likely. THe rumored stats are already divergent for a 6thedition grav weapon family, in HH: Betrayal. I find it odd that the same weapons published by the same parent company will have 2 different rules.

Yeah, it's almost like the same company having Storm Shields that are 3++ in one book, and at the same time, 4++ in CC only in some other books. Inconceivable! :p

DogofWar1 wrote:
S4 makes the most sense to me for grav weapons. That would make it 2+ against 2+ sv, 3+ against 3+, etc. etc. to 6+ against 6+.

It would also make sense to make it blast. If you're increasing the gravity I suppose you could make a gun that hits one guy, but it makes more sense that the gun would fire some sort of hyper dense matter or something and effect a piece of terrain and the models within it.

I guess against vehicles you could make it S4+1 per every AV above 10. How potent it was against vehicles would be dependent on whether you count the front AV or rear AV for strength, and whether you hit against front or rear armor. If you went front armor-front armor or rear armor-rear armor you'd probably just glance on 6s, but if you went front armor-rear armor, you'd probably have a solid chance of landing hits (like against a Leman Russ tank, it'd be S8, but hitting against rear armor 10).

Could be a fun weapon. I imagine you could hypothetically load up on some combination of heavy bolters and grav weapons and be capable of wiping out all kinds of infantry.

I just hope it's a "wounds against armor save" rule and not a "S4, Toughness is equal to armor save" rule.

Having a Riptide or other MC ID'd by a squad weapon would SUCK.

RogueRegault wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
S4 makes the most sense to me for grav weapons. That would make it 2+ against 2+ sv, 3+ against 3+, etc. etc. to 6+ against 6+.

It would also make sense to make it blast. If you're increasing the gravity I suppose you could make a gun that hits one guy, but it makes more sense that the gun would fire some sort of hyper dense matter or something and effect a piece of terrain and the models within it.

I guess against vehicles you could make it S4+1 per every AV above 10. How potent it was against vehicles would be dependent on whether you count the front AV or rear AV for strength, and whether you hit against front or rear armor. If you went front armor-front armor or rear armor-rear armor you'd probably just glance on 6s, but if you went front armor-rear armor, you'd probably have a solid chance of landing hits (like against a Leman Russ tank, it'd be S8, but hitting against rear armor 10).

Could be a fun weapon. I imagine you could hypothetically load up on some combination of heavy bolters and grav weapons and be capable of wiping out all kinds of infantry.

I just hope it's a "wounds against armor save" rule and not a "S4, Toughness is equal to armor save" rule.

Having a Riptide or other MC ID'd by a squad weapon would SUCK.

Why would it suck? Riptides and MC tear up the battle field killing expensive squads or ID expensive independent characters in one turn? Why can't other armies have a 1 turn counter to them? I mean, then you just have to learn how to play your riptide and MC better then, don't you? That's the exact thing players are told to do with nerfed uber units such as Mephiston...

If you choose to play 40K, that is owned and developed by a company such as GW, accept that you are in a constant arms race and stop moaning about it.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Does anyone else look at the Centurions and think this is what GW will base a new Obliterator on?-I could sure see someone convert them that way.

Nope!

Obliterators are basically Terminators who have fused with their suits and have absorbed technology/weapons along the way, Centurions are Marines in Power Armor piloting a kind of exo-suit that carries guns or breaching drills. Not really the same thing when you get down to it.

Plus Centurions are a bit bigger.

Actually it was originally Tech-Marines, than anyone else who catches the obliterater virus.

Terminators became Mutilators.

On grav's I'd guess str 1 as it wounds verses armour but that will leave my daemons un touchable as I have no armour he he! So a minimal str at least could hurt. How they effect vehicles I don't know.

Agh the wait.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:

 Mkvenner wrote:

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I can't see Grav weapons being AP2 or 1. If it wounds based on armour save, then I imagine it works by having a greater kinetic impact caused by the mass of heavier armour slamming into the center of the shot. On the other hand, lighter armours wouldn't have as much inertia as they are lighter, so they don't have as much kinetic energy transfered from the shot. Gravity is a constant acceleration between objects based on Newton's law of universal gravitation, although it's a bit more complex thanks to relativity, so I imagine a grav shot to be similar in effect to the singularity grenades in borderlands. If that were the case, then I could see the profiles like this:
Grav-Pistol S4 AP4 12" Pistol, Grav
Grav-Gun S4 AP4 24" Assault 1 Blast Grav
Grav-Cannon S5 AP4 36" Heavy 1 Large Blast, Grav

Maybe S5 on all of them, but that makes a bit of a difference between 3+ and 4+ saves. We'll see.

A fella who had the White Dwarf claimed that they were AP2 and wounded on the enemy's armour saves. So I'm inclined to believe him, especially when he mentions that a full salvo cleared a power armour unit in the WD batrep.

My biggest issue with them being AP2 is that it would make Plasma seem kinda redundant. It would also give access to an AP2 anti-infantry gun with no drawback (gets Hot!), while still killing things just as effectively.

Itd be a question of power axe vs Hammer at that point.... Cost vs added benefit