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Kangodo wrote: Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
I mean, it could be that the weapon is strength X AP2, wounds on armor save, and ALWAYS inflicts ID. Or inflict ID on 4+, 5+ or 6+?
against 3+ saves with 1 wound, plasma/melta would be better(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against 2+ saves with 1 wound, would be equal to plasma and melta(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T4 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be equal to melta but better than plasma (excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T5 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be flat better.
I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Kangodo wrote: Hahaha, you need to make sure that the [.quote] and [./quote]'s are correctly placed. You probably have one [.quote] too many!
But things being confusing is really a player-issue.
ID clearly says that Strength needs to double the Toughness.
I just think that Strength 'X' needs much more wording than S4, and it both comes down to the same thing.
They shouldn't make Plasma useless.
They shouldn't make Grav useless.
If they balance it right, there will be a point where both Plasma and Grav are equally strong at killing stuff.
In my opinion that point will be T7Sv4+, T6Sv3+ and T5Sv2+ since that are commonly found statlines in codices.
I mean, it could be that the weapon is strength X AP2, wounds on armor save, and ALWAYS inflicts ID. Or inflict ID on 4+, 5+ or 6+?
against 3+ saves with 1 wound, plasma/melta would be better(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against 2+ saves with 1 wound, would be equal to plasma and melta(excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T4 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be equal to melta but better than plasma (excludes gets hot, range, RoF, and cost)
against anything T5 3+ or better with more than one wound, would be flat better.
I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
I can't say I agree with the last two sentences. Being able to wound (for example) a Riptide on a 2+ and inflict instant death on it from a ranged weapon that will likely be carried by Sternguard in Drop Pods or even basic Tactical Marines is just a bit too much. If Grav weapons did that they would invalidate monstrous creatures of any kind, save the Chaos Daemon ones lacking an armour save (poor Khorne).
2013/08/12 13:54:16
Subject: Re:Codex: Space Marines.first post updated
Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/12 14:02:46
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
Imperial Deceit wrote: Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
I think challenges should only be applicable between HQ choices.
No one is really losing morale over their commissar dying...that just means you got a field promotion!
Now your Grand Master goes down...you feel that pain...a Hive Tyrant goes down...you literally feel that pain.
Leave the challenges to the big boys who would do them. Or at least IC only. Though I do enjoy the mechanic of an MC being able to pick out the powerfist guy...if only for game balance.
When September rolls around (And it will, I promise)
LIES!
you have no proof time will continue to pass
past performance is no guarantee of future results
That's exactly wrong.
If psychology has anything like a law at all, it is "the best predictor of behavior, is past behavior."
OK - now that that's out of the way...
Unfortunately, the best mechanics for any kind of grav weapon - are also going to be accounting nightmares (not that that won't stop GW in the current design ethic...). If they are not just be another "Ho hum, Marines have a new kill-anything-from-far-away gizmo" - then they should, IMO, work something like the old graviton gun combined with the Tremor Staff rules.
JUST my two cents, but I'd like to see: Range 24", STR X AP - Heavy 1 (more for bigger grav weapons) 'Models (not units) hit with a grav weapon may not move, shoot, or charge, are considered in dangerous terrain, and WS 1 with their Attacks reduced to 1'. On each subsequent turn, the model may make a STR test to leave the area and throw off the effect. Models hit by grav weapons are considered in play for purposes of victory points, scoring, etc. as applicable and do not count as removed or as casualties. Vehicles struck by grav weapons have their movement halved. A second hit by a grav weapon immobilizes that vehicle, with no hull point removed. Flyers hit by grav weapons are forced to land on a 2-4, and crash on a 5-6. *
They should change the meta, not the lethality of Marines.
*What happens to unit coherency when one model in 5, or 10, or 30 is hit by a grav weapon? Dunno. I'd guess a) the unit has to move to coherency as per normal if the affected model recovers, b) models in units auto-recover on the following turn (your buddies drag you out of the high-grav area and the effect ends). Either one handily slows down the enemy in interesting ways without just outright killing models.
Yeah, it's a bit convoluted - but I think it'd be fun.
"Exterminatus is never having to say you're sorry."
Imperial Deceit wrote: Challenges are stupid and have no place in 40K. Having said that I believe that at the very least SM should be able to ignore challenges with a Ld or Int check or something. (I think every army should really)
Band of Brothers: "When a character in a unit with this special rule is challenged, EVERYONE accepts the challenge." Fluffy story: Soldiers of the Imperium live together, fight together and die together.
Exergy wrote: I dont like it having a strength value, str4 ID 2+ saves but not 3+ saves. Would it really be too powerful if it just always caused ID? At least that way it treats things equally.
Ooh, you are right. Abyssal Staff and equivalents got FAQ'd that for Instant Death you check against the stat you rolled against. Maybe they should undo that FAQ? And otherwise you have the perfect argument to why Grav-weapons won't have a S-value!
And yeah, always ID would be quite overpowered. I don't want a Sarg with a Grav Pistol having a 50+% chance to ID Mephiston or a Riptide.
Caederes wrote: Heh, anyone else think about how annoying it will be to shoot grav weapons at mixed armour save units if the whole "wound against armour save" blurb is accurate? No different to current wound allocation rules, but still a bit annoying. Heh, that could actually be a funny way to protect a Chaos Lord in a unit of Chaos Spawn, or Inquisitor Coteaz in a Henchmen unit. Against Grav weapons, per the mixed save rules, put the 5+ armoured bodies or non-armoured bodies in front for a change! If Grav weapons indeed cannot hurt units without an armour save, I can only imagine the look on a poor Space Marine players' face when my Spawn and Khorne Lord shrug off the fire from his new Centurions.
Ooh crap, the BRB and YMDC are going to explode. I will put my blast template over the inner-circle that has 2+ and allocate the wounds to the 5+ models.. That will teach you not to mess with me!
But the amount of Grav-shots are probably going to be limited, so you could fire them all one by one. Maybe it's even possible to roll for Bolters first, clearing the area of 5+ and then roll the Grav-weapons.
And I am willing to bet ALL MY INTERNETDOLLARS that they will wound on a 6+ against Sv -
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 14:17:03
It's not really a balancing factor. It was placed to create "cinematic moments". All it really does is make certain upgrades obsolete and dramatically reduce the value of Sergeants and their equivalents. I almost never even bother to upgrade my CCW on them anymore because its just throwing away points. The penalty for refusing a challange is too steep. It should have been left in fantasy where it belongs.
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
lost_soul wrote: I love new models as much as the next guy, but SM are already supposed to be the best of the best HUMANS in the universe. I hope this new codex brings more in the way of tactical advantages and such. Plus I have been waiting for salamanders so get the rules they deserve fluff wise to make them as awesome as they really are. Fire and anvil. I was really upset when the CSM codex came out and they didnt have any special rules for alpha legion. I mean you give me cultist and no special rules for alpha legion are you mad. I just hope they dont make the same mistake for this codex.
I corrected that for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imperial Deceit wrote: It's not really a balancing factor. It was placed to create "cinematic moments". All it really does is make certain upgrades obsolete and dramatically reduce the value of Sergeants and their equivalents. I almost never even bother to upgrade my CCW on them anymore because its just throwing away points. The penalty for refusing a challange is too steep. It should have been left in fantasy where it belongs.
Definitely agree with that last part. It's a cool and fluffy fantasy mechanic but IMO feels very out of place in 40k. I can only suspend my disbelief in futuristic modern combat just so much and challenges (along with random charge length over completely clear ground) break that particular camel's back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 14:22:05
I can see the random charge distance as they also added overwatch. Getting shot at while running is going to either slow you down as you serpine to avoid getting shot or speed you up to close faster on the enemy depending on the situation.
But if I am an IG Segeant and a Chaos Champion challenges me to a duel I am sure as hell not going to accept, but I am also not going to skulk away ether. I'm going to light him up with every lasgun in my squad, then punch him with my powerfist while he isn't looking.
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
Serpine does not stop you getting shot, but it does look hilarious...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/12 14:40:25
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
It doesn't stop you from getting shot; it just makes it way harder to hit you. Statistically professional shooters accuracy is decreased by 50% when firing at a moving target. (Based off a study of police training records)
War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR
Zweischneid wrote: But who says the Centurions are supposed to special in this "Sanguinary-Guard" style way? They are a siege-warfare exo-skeleton, that a regular Marine will step-into (or out-of) without taking off his Power Armour. I doubt it's the Sanguinary Guard (or even 1st Company Terminators) guys in a Chapter that get this job.
That is the point in all of this!
If they are just some heavy exo-skeleton, then why the "They have been here for 5000 years!"?
They could just say that they are a new invention, nobody would complain and none of the old fluff would be massacred.
But now we'll probably get some lore on "They were used in battle X and Y" while my codex doesn't mention anything like that.
Or they could have written they found them in a recovered forgeworld vault ready to be sent out to the legions before the Heresy began.
After many years of work and debate they had been declared sanctified and sent to the chapters for use. Politics became heavily involved in which chapters received the suits. The forgeworld has been rekindled and the units are in production. SInce it was only an ork invasion that had held the world for so long there was no chaos influence to cause the adeptus mechanicus to destroy them.
Imperial Deceit wrote: It doesn't stop you from getting shot; it just makes it way harder to hit you. Statistically professional shooters accuracy is decreased by 50% when firing at a moving target. (Based off a study of police training records)
Dude, watch the clip, it has to be done well to be effective... ;-) (and whilst a drama series it's based off a diary of real events, so you can watch it safe in the knowledge that real-life jarheads once mocked a real-life journalist for his zig-zag antics...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 15:22:38
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Erm, guys, I think you left the topic behind at the last coffee stop?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Imperial Deceit wrote: However I assume that learning how to serpintine properly is something that SM are taught how to do.
I'd love to see these assault troops run in serpentine pattern
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Better?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 16:37:12
Marthike wrote: The real Problem is they are competing for the HS spot with thunder fire cannon which is the same (everything) as before.
A 2+ T7 model that is gonna be tough to compete and very cheap, unless the grav cannon centurion is just as good.
The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imperial Deceit wrote: I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.
Sure, in a different thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 16:44:05
Las Vegas Open Head Judge
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato
And otherwise you have the perfect argument to why Grav-weapons won't have a S-value!
Renegades - 
