Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Azreal13**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.

Well, turn around and get it before you become partly responsible for driving the thread into a Mod shaped wall.

**PaperworkNinja**

Kroothawk wrote:
Imperial Deceit wrote:
However I assume that learning how to serpintine properly is something that SM are taught how to do.

I'd love to see these assault troops run in serpentine pattern

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I think we blew past the coffee stop a few pages back. But you have to admit its better then endless posts about how terrible Centi are.

Better?

If they'd just put the Devastator Centurions' guns on the pauldrons instead of under the giant smashy fists we'd have a winner. I still want to see a rule allowing for a marine to be able to eject from from a stricken Centurion and be able to fight on foot as a fully-armed & armored marine.

**AlmightyWalrus**

OverwatchCNC wrote:

The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.

For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.

6^

Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

**Exergy**

Desubot wrote:
Arnt we supposedly getting a gun that will wound a riptide on a 2+?

you mean a meltagun? Yes you are getting a meltagun

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:

The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.

For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.

IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...

**Alfndrate**

6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it

**PaperworkNinja**

Okay, just saw the new photo of the back of the Centurions at BOLS. So it's an augmenting suit like a Dreadknight and not an entirely new armor option. Give it an ejection rule and I'm cooler with it now than I was at first glance.

**Exergy**

Marthike wrote:
The real Problem is they are competing for the HS spot with thunder fire cannon which is the same (everything) as before.

A 2+ T7 model that is gonna be tough to compete and very cheap, unless the grav cannon centurion is just as good.

how do you know it will be the same everything as before? New codex, perhaps new rules.

TFC might get smacked by the nerf bat

6^

Alfndrate wrote:
6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it

Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:

The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.

For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.

IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...

The Hunter and Stalker most likely won't have blast weapons, as those can't fire on aircraft. Furthermore, they're probably going to be at least strength 7. If they're multi-shot S7+ weapons with Ignores Cover they'll be a counter to Wave Serpents.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Why am I sitting here considering finally attempting to paint White Scars.

**Alfndrate**

6^ wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it

Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.

We don't know what the points cost will be on the grav gun do we? It could be more prohibitive than a meltagun

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Why am I sitting here considering finally attempting to paint White Scars.

Because you saw the DCM thread about painting up First Founding Chapters, and you know we need a White Scars army

**Darkseid**

Exergy wrote:
TFC might get smacked by the nerf bat

There is a summary by 40k radio on some rules changes. Probabily someone with very good eyes who had a look at the upcomming WD.

40k Radio wrote:Most things remained the same. Some units got cheaper vanguard, sternguard, honor guard, tactical marines and some special characters.

Same psychic disciplines and thunderfires are the same and same points.

Kantor is in.

Grav are nasty against heavy armored troops. the roll to wound is based of the armor save. So shooting termies you would wound on a 2+ and all types are AP2.

Lysander is still in there and he is still bad ass but he is 30pts more.

No new shooty HQ. MoF is still in the dex so he's your beat option. No way to make termies troops or scoring.

The only one that deviates in this way is Kantor, he allows sternguard to score. Khan gives bike and dedicated transports in the WS detachment scout.

No bionic rules but Iron Hands have army wide 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die for vehicles and characters .

Centurion "devastator" come with Twin-Linked Heavy bolter and hurricane bolter for 60 pts. You can have up to 6 in a squad.

Legion of the Damned have flaming projectiles. All ranged attacks have ignore cover special rule.

Black templars are in the book. They can not take some selections but have access to Centurions, Thunderfires, and so on. They have special rules for Chapter Tactics.

Chapter Tactics for the following chapters: Ultramarines, White Scars, Imperial Fist, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They have two special rules per choice.

Centurions can be taken as Elites or Heavy.

Heavy support are the devastator option. They come with twin-linked Heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters. Hurricane can be upgraded to missile and HB upgraded to Twin- Las cannon or Grav-cannon and grav-amp.

Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.

They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.

Elites are the assault option. They come with Siege Drills at S9, twin-linked flamers and Ironclad assault launchers. They can upgrade flamers to meltas and assault launcher can be upgraded to hurricne bolters.

Can upgrade to omniscope which gives night fight and split fire special rules.

They can select a Land Raider as a dedicated transport.
Special Rules: Move through cover, Slow and Purposeful, Decimator Protocols(Can fire up to two weapons in each shooting phase), Very Bulky, Chapter Tactics, and TSKNF.

(Centurions) Two plus save no invul. Toughness and strength of five.

Also you can not deep strike the centurions.

Most things remained the same. Some units got cheaper vanguard, sternguard, honor guard, tactical marines and some special characters.

Same psychic disciplines and thunderfires are the same and same points.

Kantor is in.

Legion of the Damned are 25 points a model.

No Vows (Black Tenplars), just chapter tactics.

Grav are nasty against heavy armored troops. the roll to wound is based of the armor save. So shooting termies you would wound on a 2+ and all types are AP2.

**Exergy**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:

The real problem is, as stated previously, nothing in this release seems to be giving us anything to deal with trip Drakes lists, trip Riptides lists, or the 3 Eldar powerbuilds. Unless some of the units like Sternguard become much cheaper then this SM codex is going to be in the same boat as DA or CSM. Except at least the CSM dex has drakes and super cheap troops to make up for the shortcomings whereas DA and C:SM do not.

For all we know, the Hunter or Stalker could have Ignores Cover and thus be hard-counters to Wave Serpents.

IG Collosus have ignore cover and they arent a hard counter to wave serpents...

The Hunter and Stalker most likely won't have blast weapons, as those can't fire on aircraft. Furthermore, they're probably going to be at least strength 7. If they're multi-shot S7+ weapons with Ignores Cover they'll be a counter to Wave Serpents.

really cost, RoF, and strength of the weapon are going to have a huge impact on if these are effective counters. I am just saying that ignores cover alone wont be enough.

**MadmanMSU**

This may already be posted here somewhere, but I didn't see it, so:

Hunter and Stalker are both S7. Hunter is AP2 with armorbane though. No idea how many shots they get, but at least the Hunter has some oomph to it.

EDIT: Apparently Stalker is 4 shots and Hunter is 1 shot. Makes sense.

BT get Adamantium Will and Crusader, along with buffs to melee in challenges. Crusader units can take two power weapons standard. EC has an AP2 sword striking at initiative and if you add the BT Chapter Tactics be becomes a challenge machine. He also has 2+/4++. Once per game Helbrecht can give Hatred and Fleet in the Assault phase. It only works on units with Chapter Tactics(Black Templars). BT can not take librarians.

IF get Bolter Drill (changed from TL to re-rolls ones?) that doesn't work for sternguard. Also get Tank Hunter for Centurions with +1 to vehicle damage rolls.

Salamanders get to re-roll wounds and penetrates on flame weapons, re-roll saves for failed armor saves against flame, weapons, and all characters get to master craft one weapon for free.

Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die

Ultra marines choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devastator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

It looks like Tacticals will still be 1 special and 1 heavy per 10. That's not a direct quote, that's me interpolating from what was said. I could be wrong.

Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.

Can take a single unit of bikes as troops if HQ is on a bike

Above is all from 40k Radio.

**Hedgehog**

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Why am I sitting here considering finally attempting to paint White Scars.

Because White Scars are totally awesome?

I'm interested in the new AA tanks, although I'm wondering if the jacks mean that they lost some or all of their utility if they move. the rumour about different chapter traits for various chapters sounds interesting though - the key for me though is the need for biker troops, either in the base codex or in a quick supplement.

I'm also interested in a few things no-one else has mentioned yet - particularly scout bikes and the land speeder storm. scout bikes are an interesting concept but just aren't good enough for the cost - perhaps they will change? As for the LSS, I'm really hoping for it to become a dedicated transport for scouts - at present the FA slot it eats is far too valuable!

**Imperial Deceit**

I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.

**xole**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.

If it only affected flyers it would be pretty pointless to do so. Very, very rarely are two flyers going to be close enough together to warrant a blast template over a straight shot.

**Darkseid**

MadmanMSU wrote:
Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.

Stealth Marines! Finally!

Given that these chapters get such interesting rules, I wonder what's in for Ultramarines?

Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and IWND on characters / vehicles, which is also quite good. Also taken form 40k Radio.

6^

Alfndrate wrote:
6^ wrote:
Alfndrate wrote:
6^ wrote:
Incidentally the grav weapons will make Mark of Nurgle more balanced. MoN bikes T6, wound on 3+ AP2! MoN obliterators: wound on 2+ AP2. LOVE IT.

Yes, because Power Armor needs ANOTHER thing that eats through it

Yeah that's unfortunate, however so is MoN being the only real choice in C:CSM. Now MoN has a hard counter and it's a costly mark.

We don't know what the points cost will be on the grav gun do we? It could be more prohibitive than a meltagun

Maybe, I personally wonder how effective Grav gun spam will be. Poor wraith guard army :(

**Desubot**

MadmanMSU wrote:

Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.

Hazza totally can make reasonable marines in camo. Glorious.

**Alfndrate**

Darkseid wrote:
MadmanMSU wrote:
Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.

Stealth Marines! Finally!

Given that these chapters get such interesting rules, I wonder what's in for Ultramarines?

Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and IWND on characters / vehicles, which is also quite good. Also taken form 40k Radio.

Ultramarines get Plot Armor, whenever there is a unit of more than 5, their armor save drops to 6+. A unit of 5 or less is only hit and wounded on 6s, preventing rerolls. A unit of 1 becomes toughness 10 and wins the game.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Hedgehog wrote:
Because White Scars are totally awesome?

Aye, I've been a fan of White Scars since Space Marine (and by that I mean old epic) but I was never convinced I could paint the white after a few places I've tried elsewhere, banners etc for other armies.

However I am thinking once again, maybe its time to get back on the hors... Bike.

Alfndrate wrote:

Because you saw the DCM thread about painting up First Founding Chapters, and you know we need a White Scars army

Hmm.. it seems I need to go and investigate.

**Alfndrate**

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Hmm.. it seems I need to go and investigate.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/960/390075.page#5939926

It's part of an already going thread

**Imperial Deceit**

xole wrote:
Imperial Deceit wrote:
I actually really like the idea of an AA blast template, it would be like an actual flac cannon. There is no reason why they can't write a rule that allows the new AA guns to fire blast against aircraft.

If it only affected flyers it would be pretty pointless to do so. Very, very rarely are two flyers going to be close enough together to warrant a blast template over a straight shot.

Not really, a blast weapon at BS:4, especially if it is twin-linked or heavy >1 has a better chance of hitting a flyer. If you center it over the model you have to scatter atleast 2" to miss, and depending on the direction you need a scatter by 4" or more on some models. Flyers are very large. Given that the worst a BS:4 can scatter is 8 that means you have a 25%-50% chance of hitting the flyer even on a scatter, add in the 33% to not scatter at all you get a 71% chance to hit with a blast (assuming you scatter an equal amount in each direction) vs a 66% chance with a single BS:4 shot. If you get to re-roll, a large blast, or more then 1 shot the odds get even better.

**AlmightyWalrus**

40k Radio wrote:
No Vows (Black Templars), just chapter tactics.

Oh for the love of...

6^

Maybe Vows will be their chapter tactic.

**MajorWesJanson**

MadmanMSU wrote:
This may already be posted here somewhere, but I didn't see it, so:

Hunter and Stalker are both S7. Hunter is AP2 with armorbane though. No idea how many shots they get, but at least the Hunter has some oomph to it.

EDIT: Apparently Stalker is 4 shots and Hunter is 1 shot. Makes sense.

BT get Adamantium Will and Crusader, along with buffs to melee in challenges. Crusader units can take two power weapons standard.

IF get Bolter Drill (changed from TL to re-rolls ones?) that doesn't work for sternguard. Also get Tank Hunter for Centurions with +1 to vehicle damage rolls.

Salamanders get to re-roll wounds and penetrates on flame weapons, re-roll saves for failed armor saves against flame, weapons, and all characters get to master craft one weapon for free.

Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and It Will Not Die

Ravens have stealth and get to use jump packs in assault and moving.

Can take a single unit of bikes as troops if HQ is on a bike

Above is all from 40k Radio.

BT makes sense and is a rather clean way to do it. Called it on Ad Will (but forgot it was a USR). Crusader as a run and sweep boost is a lot different from Righteous zeal, is more limited but more controllable, and the name fits.
Iron Hands, awesome, my guys are a successor.
Flame weapons for Sallies is good, dropping meltas from that makes them less insane vs tanks. Mastercraft a weapon on characters is both fluffy, simple, and pretty useful.
Ravenguard, I would have thought Infiltrate before Stealth, but it makes scouts rather better, esp as it will stack with camo cloaks. Jump pack for move and assault makes their assault marines and vanguard decently more dangerous in assault. I like it.
IF bolter drill makes sense, though not on sternguard is sad. Bonus to centurions is a bit gimmicky though, kind of pushing the new kit.
Single unit of bikes with a bike HQ? bit more limiting, but I like it. Reign in FOC shenanigans, making it work more like Orks (one unit per HQ, not as many as you want like GK)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
40k Radio wrote:
No Vows (Black Templars), just chapter tactics.

Oh for the love of...

Still guessing that Vows will be attached to the Emperor's Champion. Just no longer an army-wide rule.

**AlmightyWalrus**

On the plus side (as has been mentioned), assuming Templars don't follow their own allies chart, Sisters and Templars allies is a go!

**Imperial Deceit**

Looks like AlmightyWalrus can flinally run Codex: Religious Nutjobs.