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Losing Heroic Intervention is indeed a big bummer. I fielded Vanguard vets for the first time (wanted to do that for forever, but haven't gotten much games in since assembling them) last Thursday... and with HI landed next a 6-man devastator squad with 4x ML and wiped it out

It's also very much a bummer that Templars can't get Redeemers as dedicated. The damn thing was developed from the Crusader, after all.

I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

Well, we can't have those people running around with CC-squads in a edition that is clearly intended for ranged, right?

Kangodo wrote:

Well, we can't have those people running around with CC-squads in a edition that is clearly intended for ranged, right?

Perish the thought!

I really miss turn one assaults.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Well it is also possible that these CT are just a taste of what is to come. There maybe way more for each CT then has been leaked.

For the sake of IF and IH, I bloody well hope so. Having read that roundup, it turns out that the most thematic HQ for IH, the MotF, comes with our supposedly special Chapter Tactic by default for every flavour of Marines, and in exchange he gets....+1 to repair rolls. Seriously I don't get this; they managed to look at BT and go "OK, so we give them their special thing(Crusaders), and we say 'no libbies', sorted", yet they were apparently incapable of looking at IH and saying "OK, so we give them their special thing(Rites of Battle/Zealot on MotF/Techmarines), and we say 'no chappies', sorted".

IF arguably have it even worse than us, since at least there might be some IWND Dreadnaught/Techmarine shenanigans to try, while they essentially get stuck with weaksauce versions of Ultramarines traits. Bolter Drill is a worse version of Tactical Doctrine, and Relentless Devs and Centurion devs is infinitely more useful than Tank Hunter, especially given the paucity of armour in a lot of 6th Edition regional metas.

No chaplains? IH has the Iron Fathers, which are essentially chaplains (chaplain tech marines, still though..)

Man though, Space marines get all this and yet CSM is derided for wanting rules for their legions.

Hence why I said our "thing" would be Rites of Battle(or in the new 'dex, seemingly, Zealot) on our MotF and (maybe)Techmarines, instead of a pointless +1 to vehicle repair rolls. Iron Fathers are not "essentially Chaplains", they're a total fusion of the two roles.

Maybe they are taking it away to make Blood Angels stay special - unless they loose it as well?

 Nevelon wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/278011-new-codex-space-marines-rumor/page-68#entry3420390

Nice compilation with some info I hadn't seen before. If this is accurate, White Scars might work out OK. Would require a little bit of tweaking from pure bike though. I'm not a fan of the one squad=troops if that comes to pass, not from a list building POV, but from a game play one. Which of your identical bike squads zooming across the table is the one that can score as a troop pick? What a headache...

WHITE SCARS CHAPTER TRAITS:
+1 to Jink saves
Autopass Dangerous Terrain tests
+1 to Hammer Of Wrath attacks
All White Scars units gain the Hit & Run USR, except for Terminators and Centurions.
KOR'SARRO KAHN:
Khan gives Bikes and Dedicated Transports in the White Scars detachment the Scout USR.
Moondraken inflicts D3 Hammer Of Wrath hits.

Wow, just look at Tigurius:

VARRO TIGURIUS:

Tigurius is Mastery Level 3.
He knows all Psychic Disciplines.
He can re-roll his dice when determining his psychic powers.
He can re-roll Reserves rolls(even successful ones).
The Hood Of Hellfire is now a Psychic Hood that lets him re-roll failed Psychic Tests.

EDIT:

On the other hand:
VANGUARD VETERANS:

Heroic Intervention: Negates the penalty for Disordered Charge and the Sergeant auto-passes Initiative checks for Glorious Intervention.
They CANNOT charge after Deep Striking anymore.
1 point cheaper per Marine.
Jump Pack upgrade is 7 points cheaper per Marine.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Stuff

Not related to your post, but you might want to change the BT part of your signature

They don't need to take away Heroic Intervention to make BA special, Decent of Angels does that. Heroic Interverion is what made the Vanguard special. In the current game, a squad of Sternguard popping out of a DP (which is cheaper then Jump packs for Vanguard) is going to do a lot more killing then Vanguard are. Especially if they get some kind of re-roll with their special issue ammo.

Taking away the deepstrike assault is a big deal. That is one expensive unit to throw on the table and not get to assault.

The heroic intervention was the most important reason to waste those points. They already had to hope they deep struck without scattering too much and then got a good roll to assault. They still got shot up and could be hit by interceptors.

Now they are just an assault squad with power weapons and an extra attack. The upside is they are now able to bring a special character with them and not really worry about it messing up their cool ability.

spamthulhu wrote:
Taking away the deepstrike assault is a big deal. That is one expensive unit to throw on the table and not get to assault.

They cost 20 points more than an identically equipped unit of Assault Marines, so they are not really that expensive if you consider that you are getting 2 attacks on every model for those points. And they have the exact same odds as dying as the regular Assault Marines.

The heroic intervention was the most important reason to waste those points. They already had to hope they deep struck without scattering too much and then got a good roll to assault. They still got shot up and could be hit by interceptors.

Now you are "wasting" 20 points to attack multiple units (which would be better with a larger unit, good thing that they are cheaper) and you are less at the mercy of the dice gods leaving your previously more expensive unit out in the open to die. Both versions of Heroic Interventions are situational, but the new version doesn't mean that you are one dice roll away from getting the unit wiped off the table without doing anything.

Now they are just an assault squad with power weapons and an extra attack. The upside is they are now able to bring a special character with them and not really worry about it messing up their cool ability.

A unit that can protect the special character better as well, for not very many points more.

True, but with the reductions do you think and assault squad would retain its higher cost? I am not sure that will be the case.

In the end one of the Vanilla Marine's biggest issue was that it couldn't build a reliable assault army with the options they had. Now It looks a bit better with some of the options and the ability to afford Vanguards a bit better. A raven guard army will be a bit stronger with fast attack/elite options for assaults.

spamthulhu wrote:
True, but with the reductions do you think and assault squad would retain its higher cost? I am not sure that will be the case.

Don't know.

Its the only unit for which the rumors have not mentioned a drop in points so far.

 d-usa wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Stuff

Not related to your post, but you might want to change the BT part of your signature

Aye, I guess that's a bit out of date now.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1404786&posted=1#post1404786 My full roll-up so far of everything that's been posted on the 40k Radio Facebook. Fair warning, it's a loooooong post and is ordered chronologically.

If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The UM can still use it with non-bolter weapons however, re-rolling plasma guns/heavy weapons is still pretty nice

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The Imperial Fist Warlord trait does NOT work on Sternguard special ammo. Every bolter weapon listed on page 56 of the codex can use it though, save for Hurricane bolters because they're twin-linked.

Wait you have codex pages already?

when was this?

I just had an interesting thought, this is going to be the first codex that replaces a digital codex, I wonder if GW will do any sort of replacement deal for those people that have brought the digital one, like an auto update.......

Takes tongue out of cheek...

Is there any leaked pages or book pictures that has surfaced?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
If the IF Bolter Drill lets special ammo reroll on sternguards, it might make it as good/better than the UM ability

The UM can still use it with non-bolter weapons however, re-rolling plasma guns/heavy weapons is still pretty nice

From what I've read the UM ability is really down to how you want to build your army to take full advantage of it, and that makes sense. It looks like it's supposed to represent the full flexibility of the Codex by giving you rules that suit different army builds (which also makes it nice and flexible for the 8 billion successor chapters the UM have, all of which seem to be a -little- bit different than each other) while other the other chapter's traits are more specific to the way they operate instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marthike wrote:
Is there any leaked pages or book pictures that has surfaced?

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Wait you have codex pages already?

when was this?

No, I just have that really long Q&A I put together out of what 40k Radio answered on their Facebook.

EDIT: Here's the link again: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1404786&posted=1#post1404786 It's my full roll-up so far of everything that's been posted on the 40k Radio Facebook. Fair warning, it's a loooooong post and is ordered chronologically.

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I can't think of a good reason to take away heroic intervetion though.

So Blood Angels can keep it!

I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

You are forgetting that Vanguard are only 20 pts more if they do not take Jump Packs, which prevents you from using any special rules. All you get for those 20 pts is an extra attack. When you add Jump packs the price goes up considerably.

Also attacking multiple enemies is very rarely a good thing. Even without the disorganized charge your vets are going to be badly outnumbered, and there are still a vast range of units that are as good or better in the assault then marines are.

You could always attach an IC to vanguard vets provided they have the same type (infanty vs jump infantry)

Hm, something leap out at me in this bit:

Q: Could you shed some light on the UM special rules?
A: Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

compared with:

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

The UM tac doctrine says in the shooting phase. So you don't get to re-roll during overwatch/interceptor fire, while the IF does. It's a minor boost that the fists have over the ultras. But seeing as we are talking about rumors, filtered through a number of different people, I'm not going to make any assumptions on intricacies of exact wording.

I'll save my getting bent out of shape and nerd rage for when I see pics or have the book in hand. Even then, I might wait for the first FAQ. Overall, I have a positive feeling about the new codex ATM.

I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

If Iron Fists do get their CT exactly as it is currently rumored it doesn't really help their Sternguard. Special Ammo is what Sternguard is all about, otherwise ther are just expensive tactical marines. Besides they are veterans, if anyone should get a bonus for shooting, its them.