Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**d-usa**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
You are forgetting that Vanguard are only 20 pts more if they do not take Jump Packs, which prevents you from using any special rules. All you get for those 20 pts is an extra attack. When you add Jump packs the price goes up considerably.

Also attacking multiple enemies is very rarely a good thing. Even without the disorganized charge your vets are going to be badly outnumbered, and there are still a vast range of units that are as good or better in the assault then marines are.

You could always attach an IC to vanguard vets provided they have the same type (infanty vs jump infantry)

Vanguard Vets with JP are 20 points more than Assault Marines with a power weapon.

I do think that they are meant to be a bodyguard unit considering the intervention USR.

**ClockworkZion**

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

From the wording of the rule as given in this quote below:

Nevelon wrote:Hm, something leap out at me in this bit:

Q: Could you shed some light on the UM special rules?
A: Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The Tactical detachment re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. The Devastator detachment get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

compared with:

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

The UM tac doctrine says in the shooting phase. So you don't get to re-roll during overwatch/interceptor fire, while the IF does. It's a minor boost that the fists have over the ultras. But seeing as we are talking about rumors, filtered through a number of different people, I'm not going to make any assumptions on intricacies of exact wording.

I'll save my getting bent out of shape and nerd rage for when I see pics or have the book in hand. Even then, I might wait for the first FAQ. Overall, I have a positive feeling about the new codex ATM.

That's a good point that I hadn't caught!

And thank you for saving the nerd rage. I've seen so much of it lately I think I may have overdosed.

Lobukia wrote:Wait, if its listing bolter weapons, why would special ammo in a listed weapon not gain the reroll?

Imperial Deceit wrote:If Iron Fists do get their CT exactly as it is currently rumored it doesn't really help their Sternguard. Special Ammo is what Sternguard is all about, otherwise ther are just expensive tactical marines. Besides they are veterans, if anyone should get a bonus for shooting, its them.

You mean "Imperial Fists" I hope.

That aside, I don't know GW's reasoning and we don't have the full verbatim rule, perhaps some logic for it is shared there.

**Lockark**

Melissia wrote:
I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

Is their any Space Marien chapters who follow the Imperial Cult maby who would be willing to work closely with the SoB?
(sorry for the off topicness, but a interesting question I just thought of when reading melissia's post.)

**Yodhrin**

Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

**Compel**

Thinking about it logically, I can imagine UM Tactical doctrine will just be 'reroll 1's to hit with shooting.' (as someone expanded on later in that quote....)

They then separate the specific tactical bonus of "twin linking tactical squads" and match that up with " Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings. "

**ClockworkZion**

Lockark wrote:
Melissia wrote:
I like the new Rhino variants. Wonder if I'll be able to ally them in and claim that they're Sisters vehicles instead somehow...

Is their any Space Marien chapters who follow the Imperial Cult maby who would be willing to work closely with the SoB?
(sorry for the off topicness, but a interesting question I just thought of when reading melissia's post.)

There are a few officially named ones that do, yes.

**Imperial Deceit**

Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

**Grarg**

Bah Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack again? Heh, serves me right for believing the first set of rumors where they moved to the elite slot

**ClockworkZion**

Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grarg wrote:
Bah Vanguard Vets are Fast Attack again? Heh, serves me right for believing the first set of rumors where they moved to the elite slot

Where'd you see that? The only thing I've seen on them said they were Elites.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

**Imperial Deceit**

I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

**prpetros**

Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

Much happier about this, Gives me a reason to start using my devastators again. The first rumour for the IF i thought the tank hunter was only for the Centurion Devs.

Still not clear how the Um tactics work. What is the Detachment it talks about?

Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The [b]Tactical detachment[/b] re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. [b]The Devastator detachment[/b] get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

**Hulksmash**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

Depending on the cost to upgrade to grav-guns they are MC/High T unit killers. You take them because they give you a one turn answer to things like Wraith Knights, Dreadknights, and Riptides. Let alone Nid MC's, Thunderwolf Cav, Terminators of all stripes, Wraith units of all types, crisis or broadside units, and the list goes on and on. I could easily see dropping a unit or two into the current meta.

Oh, and they don't fall down to a certain dragon unit that all of your previous examples of comparables do.

**davou**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

I agree, and was very sad to see the elect to fail all morale checks thing disapear.

**ClockworkZion**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Imperial Deceit wrote:Yes I did mean Imperial fists, however now that i think about it, Why not Iron Fists as well? Are they not Space Marines? If you prick them, do they not Bleed?

Well they're 22nd founding, and while they are one of the many Sons of Dorn, the chapter trait is specifically named after the Imperial Fists, so that's why I was confirming it. And if you price a Marine he kills you. It's pretty simple there.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

Or they are a new unit that doesn't have an easy win button attached and will take tactics to employ properly and people will still enjoy using.

Just saying, that there is plenty of room in the middle of "OP" and "Sucks Jervis' Left Nut" for units to exist.

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

I never said they WHERE OP. I said there was a lot of room on the scale between OP and total trash. Don't put words into my mouth.

And obviously they aren't for you if you can't see a way to use them effectively. But for every one who things X unit sucks there are others who are willing to give them a chance or at least see if they can make them work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Imperial Deceit wrote:I, personally, am very glad that the new codex doesn't have any auto-includes or insta-win units. Despite the fact the my loyal BA will be playing as SM. I believe that SM was never about having the ultimate single unit on the field, but rather how through tactical acumen and skill SM are able to function as a whole to take down larger armies or superior units. Adding in a weapon or unit that takes away the critical thinking aspect of the army is not fluffy. The power of a SM army should more be based on how the player fields and runs their army and less from list building.

Agreed. A large number of options and nothing seems like I -need- to have it.

prpetros wrote:Q: What are the Imperial Fists chapter traits?
A: IF get bolter drill and that allows them to re-roll any 1s, it does not work with sternguard special rounds. Also Devs and Centurion Devs get Tank Hunters special Rules with a +1 on damaging buildings.

Much happier about this, Gives me a reason to start using my devastators again. The first rumour for the IF i thought the tank hunter was only for the Centurion Devs.

Still not clear how the Um tactics work. What is the Detachment it talks about?

Ultra marines are a little lengthy but they choose the doctrines of Tactical, Assault, or Devstator. The [b]Tactical detachment[/b] re-roll ones, unless they're tactical marines and they re-roll all failed to hit rolls in the shooting phase. The Assault detachment re-rolls charges, unless they're assault squads, bikes, attack bikes and they get fleet. [b]The Devastator detachment[/b] get to re-rolls on snap shots and overwatch shots, unless they're Devastators and they gain relentless as long as they're not disembarking from a transport in the movement phase.

From my understanding, without seeing the book, with the UM/Vanilla Chapter Trait you pick one of those three doctrines: Tactical, Assault or Devastator and your army is that "detachment". The idea is that your army is picking to focus on a specific style of combat, so it chooses tactics to support those elements.

**Lockark**

Yodhrin wrote:
Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

**Exergy**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.

the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

According to B&C, Salamaders get re-rolls for both flame AND melta weapons. Might be too OP if true, coupled with Vulkan making Meltas MC, that means any tank that gets in Melta-Range it all but guaranteed to get popped.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.

Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.

the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.

**Exergy**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

It has nothing to do with being OP, stop jumping to that conclusion.

They cost 190 for 3 of them BASIC, as in with just heavy bolters. For less points than that (and I'm assuming they follow the prices of the DA codex here, which is all but confirmed now). I can get a triple Lascannon Pred, or 5 Devs with 4 Lascannons/4 MLs with skyfire, or TEN devs with 4 multi-meltas So please tell me why I would ever want these guys, especially when Eldar and Tau have so much AP2/quasi-rending that would wreck them in one turn of shooting?

They have hurricane bolters too. So that is 9 TL HB shots and 3/6 regular bolter shots. of course I am having some trouble with the plural. Do they have one twinlinked heavy bolter or 2 twin linked heavy bolterS. Do they have one twinlinked hurricane bolter or 2 twin linked hurricane bolterS. I keep seeing the S and it clearly looks like they have 2 of each weapon.

With lascannons and missile launchers they cost 90 points each, get a missile and lascannon shot, both twinlinked. Can walk and fire. If they are IF they get crazy tank hunter bonuses. IH they get 6+ fnp and IWND. Devs cant use IWND

Consider that an obliterator is 76 points with T5, only gets 1 lascannon shot that isnt twinlinked and dont have ATSKNF. sure they have a 5++, but 24 points gets you twinlinked on the lascannon, an extra twinlinked missile launcher, ATSKNF, and chapter tactics, which could be 6+FNP and IWND or Tank Hunters? Seems like 24 points well spent.

**Imperial Deceit**

Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

**perezba7**

I really like the look of the new tactical squad and vet squads. Looks like the tactical guys finally got legs that have them standing more up right as opposed to the old "squatting legs" The vets look like they have some awesome weapon and bitz choices. I definitely like the new grav gun option as well. As for the new EXO SQUAD Marines, Idk, not for me, I keep thinking of that old cartoon show EXOSQUAD. Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

**Gwyidion**

Tigurius makes me urpy. Looks like 5 points less than Eldar's generic farseer + Autarch without upgrades, but tougher, meaner in combat, much better psyker, better reserves manip.

Just - why?

**Exergy**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Just saw the Centurion rules, T5, 2+, NO ++ save, 60 pts each basic.
Its official, centurions are the new Mutilators...

with twinlinked flamers, ATSKNF, str9 ap2 armor bane at init, and grenades they are both cheaper than mutilators(61 points with MoN) and considerably better.
the shooting versions look better than obliterators too.

I was mostly talking about the shooty ones, but the assault ones also have Slow and Purposeful, and apparently cant deep strike (B&C dont say), which means you NEED a LR to get them anywhere. Thats at least 440 pts right there. You might as well just take hammernators, roughly the same price and since they have a ++ and Centurions don't, are much more survivable.

I am not making a case that they are good, but they arent mutilators. Mutilators are terribad. No grenades on an assault unit, Ld8 and no ATSKNF on an assault unit, No Character to take challenges on a unit that is clearly designed to have another character in it, and Chaos's general problem of getting their assault units into assault(without high capacity landraiders)
They have to swap their weapons every round of combat making them less than optimal in the second round of fighting.

O but mutilators have FEAR, must be Fing awesome!(nope more bad)

I can already see so many ways that Centurians are just flat better than Mutialtors. The lack of a 5++ is bad, but there isnt that much AP2 ignores cover, so it isnt like they are going to be out in the open that long.

**ClockworkZion**

Lockark wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Lockark wrote:
I just read the rumors on BOLS about how the new chapter tactics work.

As a CSM player I'm VERY butt hurt that chaos legions didn't get a similar rule... I guess I got to wait for a Emperor's children or Iron Warrioir codex supplement. But even that makes me butt hurt that I have to buy a supplement well loyalists get all their rules in a single book.

Don't be so quick to lament, at least you guys will still be able to get away with proxying whatever the hell you like to replace your crappy rules, I can already imagine the bollocks players of certain Chapters who got crappy rules in this 'dex are going to deal with if they try proxying.

I played with that damned 4th ed csm dex all 5th and never proxied a loyalist dex despite the fact everyone told me I might as well. I'd rather not start now.

I would of rather got a half decent dex in the 1st place.

also so far from what I read it sounds like all of the chapters got prety good rules. The ultramarien's choose one of three at the beginning kinda feels clearly the best of the lot, but none of them read as crappy to me.

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

**Exergy**

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Centurions seem to be geared toward anti-vehicle pretty heavily, which would have been a big deal in 5th but given how hurt vehicles are in 6th its less important than it was.

at least C:SM gets units designed for 5th edition
CSM gets units designed for 4th edition, or maybe even 3rd(warp talons I am looking at you)

**spiralingcadaver**

perezba7 wrote:
Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?

QFT, they don't really make sense in the core 'dex, since it's a pretty unnecessary retcon (instead of making some sort of elite-er termie unit)

It would have been fine to stick in some chapter that had a theme about having depleted TDA suits and this is the stop-gap/innovative alternative, or for it to be some sort of specialized experiment, but it's not very fitting in the game world to have a heavier unit than termies that isn't based on them in generic C:SM.

**Exergy**

ClockworkZion wrote:

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

PMs and Heldrakes are just that I win button that you are talking about.

It is like GW took the best unit in the CSM codex, made it better, added an additional crazy powerful flyer and then nerfed everything else and added some terrible units.
Zerkers got nerfed, Tsons got hit by the edition shift, regular CSM got nerfed, oblits nerfed, DPs nerfed, Terminators nerfed, chosen nerfed.
Of those units, only DPs even approached I WIN button

**ClockworkZion**

Exergy wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:

The CSM book is more than half decent in my eyes regardless what people tell me. I haven't seen a codex come out yet for 6th I would call "bad". The fact is that GW has been changing the books to have less "I WIN" buttons and that's great. All the books have options but nothing is a self-supporting monster that can win the game for you on it's own (except MAYBE the Heldrake, but that's more of a case of just taking 3 of them), and I think people are missing that.

Frankly I'm tired of hearing people sell their book short because they don't want to move away from the easiest to use units in the book. Yes, some units need more support than others, or have very specific roles in what they do, but I still don't see anything I'd say is "useless". In my mind it's all a matter of play style and a willingness to experiment, not the "I Win" units that truly makes a book good or bad for any one person.

PMs and Heldrakes are just that I win button that you are talking about.

It is like GW took the best unit in the CSM codex, made it better, added an additional crazy powerful flyer and then nerfed everything else and added some terrible units.
Zerkers got nerfed, Tsons got hit by the edition shift, regular CSM got nerfed, oblits nerfed, DPs nerfed, Terminators nerfed, chosen nerfed.
Of those units, only DPs even approached I WIN button

I did say "less" I win buttons. Yes the CSM still have a couple of units that feel like they need to be in every list, but the other options aren't BAD, they're just overshadowed by things that are too GOOD.

Most of the Zerker nerf came out of the edition change, not the codex, at leas the codex does offer a way to make them better in combat (chainaxes) even if they aren't free. And the rest of those I stand by not being bad units. They get overshadowed for sure, and some may even need some more support than others, but that doesn't make them bad, it just makes them more complex to play.

**Mr Morden**

spiralingcadaver wrote:
perezba7 wrote:
Why would SM's need heavy infantry that are heavier than termies but smaller than a dreads?
QFT, they don't really make sense in the core 'dex, since it's a pretty unnecessary retcon (instead of making some sort of elite-er termie unit)

It would have been fine to stick in some chapter that had a theme about having depleted TDA suits and this is the stop-gap/innovative alternative, or for it to be some sort of specialized experiment, but it's not very fitting in the game world to have a heavier unit than termies that isn't based on them in generic C:SM.

Exactly they have Dreadnoughts and Terminators but I guess GW decided they needed a new unit and got bored with making terrible looking flyers and decided the ruin the look of the infantry as well- plus side if they have rubbish rules and look rubbish - no one will use them and they will be quickly discarded....................surely there was something esle they could have done.......like new Firedrake Salamander Terminators

Conversely the AA Marine tanks make sense - adpations of present deisgns that fit with the fast moving ethos of the Astartes.