Codex: Space Marines [First post updated 27-08-2013 - Leaked White Dwarf images added]

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**Saythings**

I, for one, can't wait to run 4 TFCs. Scout Bikers with Gred. launchers in Dedicated Speeders with Heavy Flamers or Meltas.

Or four Stalkers with 32 shots to Flyers/Skimmers (with the new Tau/Eldar explosion in popularity). Followed by Combat Squaded Sternguard with combi's.

Either way, turn1 presence just got a lot better.

Being a BT player, I get to pick whatever SM ally I want to synergize with my list. That's fantastic. I never liked the idea of allying, but with the new rules (as rumored) you can pick whatever you want in your allies, and paint them like BTs and say they are following Salamander tactics with a regular Vulkan model, etc,etc.

It basically gives me a real reason to run 4 HQs (2 normal, 1 Emperor's Champion, and 1 Salamanders (or UM, etc), 4 Elites, 8 troops, 4 heavies, and 4 fasts with almost no penalty.

Obviously you can't max all those slots, but the potential for a large variety of army lists is HUGE. I'm excited for BT players, as well as other marines. I can't wait for the supplement but until then, I'm going to have fun figuring out new army compositions.

**Killian**

When they come out with individual supplements for these chapters all the bitching will be for naught.

**xruslanx**

honestly sick of this whinging. Please just cut it out guys.

**DogofWar1**

Killian wrote:
When they come out with individual supplements for these chapters all the bitching will be for naught.

Perhaps, but only if they actually include SCs, or suitable alternatives, in those supplements, something which is not confirmed and for which we don't really have a strong precedent. Most of us assume that will be the case, but we don't know just yet.

And of course, you still have to buy the main codex and the supplement. Army books used to be, what, $40? Now they're $50 plus the $30 supplement.

**Crazyterran**

Mr Morden wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........

1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.

2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.

3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.

1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.

Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.

3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...

Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.

The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)

As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)

As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?

As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.

What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome

You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........

The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).

As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................

Sure, they aren't great characters, but most of them have been there a while. The only character that should really have made a comeback is Captain Coteaz, since he's the only Space Marine SM I can think of that's really been removed. (Barring silly ones like half-eldar marine psykers or ones in the Armageddon/Eye of Terror books). You still don't have a good reason for removing them other than to 'make it fair' in the book that used to be Codex: Ultramarines. There's no real reason to remove them as they are, since anyone who wants to use a T6 Chaplain can simply use the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, or anyone who wants to use a Captain with a Heavy Flamer and makes Meltas awesome can use the Salamanders Traits. And, they already have models for them, if you don't want to kitbash them yourselves!

Besides, everyone's already screaming about how much better the Ultramarine tactics are, right? So might as well take out that special character they get while you use their traits anyways!

I'd rather them release a new - even ugly - plastic kit that everyone can use than 2 - 3 new Special Characters they'll sell to the niche marine players. Theoritically, you can have 72 Centurions in an army over 2000pts (probably not practically), where as you could still only have one IronHands CharacterGuy.

Don't pretend you have some superiority over me because you happen to play Dark Angels and Space Wolves as well. I have a small Imperial Guard army that I don't have listed since I don't bring it out, as well as Tau.

DogofWar1 wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:

In reality, nobody is losing access to anything, since you can just use the UM Chapter Tactics.

What people are losing are the ability to mix and match SCs and min-max the Chapter Tactics. (For example, Pedro with Combi-Weapon Sternguard using Salamanders or Ultramarines chapter tactics)

EDIT: Really, all that's changing is that instead of having Combat Tactics base, you get to pick one variant of Chapter Tactics instead, and can use characters depending on what you pick.

And why isn't losing the ability to mix and match SCs losing something? It is a wall that is being put up limiting how players play their armies.

Imagine if Eldar could only choose SCs by craftworld, or CSM by traitor legion, it would be a wall that was put up that may keep you from playing how you wish to play, and IMO the best way to make the game fun is to give more options, not less, which is what is happening here.

If some combination of SCs is broken, then they could fix that while they're writing the codex, or maybe get a writer to write some story into the codex about how Lysander and Vulkan pissed each other off on some backwater planet and as such can't be in the same FOC and must be allied in. It would not have been hard to remove the cheese combinations while keeping more options available, but that was not the path they chose.

Consider that:
UM: 6 SCs (two of which are upgrades)
Chaos: 7 SCs
Eldar: 9 SCs + Avatar of Khaine
SW: 8 SCs (2 of which are upgrades)
DA: 5 SCs
GK: 8 SCs (1 upgrade)
Necrons: 7 SCs
DE: 8 SCs
Tyranids: 5 SCs (though only 2 in HQ, the rest scattered among elites and HS)
BA: 8 SCs (2 upgrades)
Tau: 6 SCs (1 upgrade)
Daemons: 9 SCs
Orks: 4 SCs
IG: 12 SCs (all over the book though)
BT: 2 SCs
IF: 1 SC
WS: 1 SC
CF: 1 SC
Salamanders: 1 SC
RG: 1 SC
IH: 0 SCs

It's a restraint on play style that they could have easily avoided and balanced, but they didn't, and now they're restricting play styles, while *maybe* giving us options back later with supplements that you have to buy.

So, your argument is that you can't mix and match Special Characters now? I guess, depending on if CFs actually get different traits from IFs. Before you couldn't mix their Chapter Tactics anyways, and had to pick one or the other. There was no real benefit rules-wise previously to mixing SCs together, and, with one of our relics apparently providing EW, you can take a better equipped Chapter Master beat stick for cheaper, most likely.

I mean, the Pedro mixed with Salamanders or Ultramarines traits was one of the cheesier ones I could think of, but even Pedro mixed with Vulkan now that they don't replace Combat Tactics would've been 'cheesy'.

On the other hand, I do think limiting Special Characters, over all, was dumb for everyone. Then again, I would never have bought a Vulkan model to use with my UM's anyways, and would've kitbashed together a 3rd Captain or something.

If the rumors are right, you can still ally in other Chapter Tactics, so, if you used more than two Troop Choices anyways, nothing is stopping you from using them both still.

**FAAC**

Things have changed. lol. This happens.

My best friend works with older people (retired onwards) and says the worst thing is a lot (not all) moan all the time. From this topic it looks like Space Marines have a surprisingly large number of older players.

PS I'm not trying to troll. I'm just saying what a lot of people are probably thinking. Personally I'm very excited about the new C:SM and plan to start a homebrew chapter when it comes out. Planning to try and make Centurians work... I've got a cool paint scheme for them and thinking they could augment an infantry-only force. I think the two wounds is useful and is (ignoring insta-kill stuff) statistically like having an invul save.

**Brother Weasel**

MandalorynOranj wrote:
I understand why they did it, but (speaking as someone who doesn't play marines) it does seem like a pretty big deal. Of course these specific characters don't join up often in the fluff, but your counts-as captain who uses a set of rules represented by this model will join up with anyone you please. Once they hit the table, all a special character is is a collection of rules, typically ones you can't get just with wargear on a stock HQ. It doesn't seem very sporting when no other army restricts how you mix these rule-blobs, but then marine players get... not exactly screwed, cause this sounds like a good book, but maybe their toes stubbed a little.

IF the rumor is correct... you can also still take 2 of them, just one as an ally, allowing you to take 2 of them... the only thing you lose is being able to take the 2 upgrade characters...

Anpu42 wrote:

this could be a fun discusion, on another thread

wasnt' there for discussion, and If i want to have it here, I will till a MOD says not to.

**Crazyterran**

FAAC wrote:
Things have changed. lol. This happens.

My best friend works with older people (retired onwards) and says the worst thing is a lot (not all) moan all the time. From this topic it looks like Space Marines have a surprisingly large number of older players.

PS I'm not trying to troll. I'm just saying what a lot of people are probably thinking. Personally I'm very excited about the new C:SM and plan to start a homebrew chapter when it comes out. Planning to try and make Centurians work... I've got a cool paint scheme for them and thinking they could augment an infantry-only force. I think the two wounds is useful and is (ignoring insta-kill stuff) statistically like having an invul save.

Yeah, T5 and 2 wounds is pretty decent. I'm trying to decide whether I want a set of Grav-Cannon/Hurricane Bolter ones to replace my Vindicators or not, since Rolling to Hit is a lot more reliable than blast templates, especially against smaller groups/well spread out things. (it'd probably be a set of 3-4 of them, giving 15-20 grav cannon shots. They'd be going around with my Contemptor Mortis w/ Kheres).

So, 15-20 Grav Cannon shots vs 2 Demolisher Cannon shots - the Demolisher Cannons are probably better vs Hordes, but a lot easier to shut down than the Centurions. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Grav Cannons will put down well-spread 15 Grav Cannon shots is 10 hits, (12.5 if you are Ultramarines), and roughly around 2 6s - which is 3 Hullpoints. (2 Hullpoints + the double Immobilize = 3), which will take down the vast majority of vehicles. It'll be a very good chance if the Grav Amps allow you to reroll Armor Penetration shots, as well.

The Hurricane Bolters might end up doing more damage against Orks / Guardsmen, however, but against the Orks, you can always point those Grav Cannons at any Bikes/Mega Nobs/Tanks he has, while the rest of your army cuts down the infantry. Guardsmen, you can point them at the vehicles, as well... and, besides, your Vehicles weren't going to last very long against Guardsmen anyways.

Throw something like Tigurius or even a Librarian with spells to provide cover saves, and they'd be pretty well off. Alternatively for Devastator Centurions, Lascannons/Missile Launchers could be a pretty good combo for tank/heavy infantry hunting. Downside is that they put out less weight of fire, but get to do so from the relative safety of the Aegis Gunline. Again, Tigurius with cover-denial spells will ruin anyones day.

On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>

**Anpu42**

Crazyterran wrote:
On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>

Two words: Land Raiders

**Mr Morden**

Crazyterran wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Wow - pity you did not actually read my post or you could have replied in a constructive way........

1. I did not say they were removing SCs - only that they should treat all the Chapters the same - but apparently you feel that only Ultramarines should get SCs - special snowflakes that they are.

2. I have an Ultramarine, Space Wolves and Dark Angels army - so again you are barking up the wrong tree mate if you think I am crying over my own Chapters.

3. You should look at your own rant and consider who is angry.

1: You implied that you would want to see Ultramarines Special Characters removed in your previous post, due to the fact that other chapters don't have as many special characters. Rather than remove them, they could have added more, or, can add them in supplements down the line. Why should already existing special characters be removed in place of new ones? In fact, as i'll discuss below, the only Ultramarines Special Character that is worth his points as things look now is Tigurius - and even that is debatable.

Not everyone is going to get equal attention. Not all Eldar Craftworlds get the same love in Codex: Eldar, or all the Dark Eldar Cabals. Hell, the Chaos Marine book is the most even handed one in those regards, but any Undivided legion other than the Black Legion gets screwed, too. There is a far larger uproar about Codex: Space Marine's Special Characters than any other - and it's frankly getting ridiculous.

3: I'm hardly angry. More tired of whining about Special Characters. Honestly, if someone wants to use Tigurius, they can take the Ultramarines chapter tactics. If someone wants to represent the Ultramarines First Company going to war, well, they can play Dark Angels. Or, run Crimson Fists/Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics.

And honestly, the vast majority of the Ultramarine Special Characters are pretty much worthless in a more 'competitive' game. Marneus Calgar can have 3 Warlord traits and gets buffs to God of War! All for 275pts, and he'll still probably lose to Abaddon and a good chance to lose against Draigo or Lysander. Sure, it provides strategic buffs to the army, but you'd probably be better off with Tigirius for a whole hell of a lot cheaper. Chaplains (Cassius) are hardly ever worth their points, as being stuck with an AP4 weapon when designed for Close Combat is pretty lame. Getting Hatred rather than Litanies of Hate will be great, but... I suppose, depending on the points cost of a normal chaplain, his T6 and FNP would be worth it, but, if Chaplains went down a decent amount...

Sicarius is 185pts now, but granting a free ability to a tactical squad, plus mediocre combat abilities, still isn't that great.

The only Ultramarine Character that'll be worth it, really, is most likely Tigurius. But, Kantor is useful, as is Vulkan. Lysander is still probably the best Combat Character in the book, even with his price hike. (Then again, if we can buy EW via relics, a bog standard Chapter Master might have him beat in that regard)

As for Telion, it even says in his fluff blurb that he goes and hangs out with other chapters that are close to the Ultramarines. Likely, they too follow the Ultramarines Doctrines. (But this is Okay, since if you are using Scouts, you'll probably be using Raven Guard or something - and Telion's stealth would be wasted)

As for Chronus... did anyone pay his stupid points costs outside of Apocalypse on a LR Terminus?

As for 'fluffy' games, you could always just ally in your Telion or what have you, and just make sure they have something to distinguish them. For example... being a different company.

What I said was - what I felt they should have done and I stick by that...............it would have made sure that not only do we get new SC models, we also get some new fluff on Chapters that are under represented.....which is sorely needed. Whereas what we do get is Centurions - awesome

You then go one to say that most of the Ultramarine SC are pointless - so what's the issue with taking some out and ether making them more generic or putting in new ones that can be used effectively. You cna still use the models as Chapter Masters, Captains etc unless you subscribe to some wierd idea that they can only represent the specific SC...........

The Eldar example doesn't compare as there are not restrictions on the SC that can be used together. I get the impression if they had been "even handed" and they had just put in 3 really good Ultramarine SCs it would have been you screaming and shouting about how your Chapter had been stripped of its fluffy chacraters (that also according to you don't really work, or are overpriced and no one uses).

As I mentioned before I don't have an bias towards one army so perhaps I can see it more objectively....................

Sure, they aren't great characters, but most of them have been there a while. The only character that should really have made a comeback is Captain Coteaz, since he's the only Space Marine SM I can think of that's really been removed. (Barring silly ones like half-eldar marine psykers or ones in the Armageddon/Eye of Terror books). You still don't have a good reason for removing them other than to 'make it fair' in the book that used to be Codex: Ultramarines. There's no real reason to remove them as they are, since anyone who wants to use a T6 Chaplain can simply use the Ultramarine Chapter Tactics, or anyone who wants to use a Captain with a Heavy Flamer and makes Meltas awesome can use the Salamanders Traits. And, they already have models for them, if you don't want to kitbash them yourselves!

Besides, everyone's already screaming about how much better the Ultramarine tactics are, right? So might as well take out that special character they get while you use their traits anyways!

I'd rather them release a new - even ugly - plastic kit that everyone can use than 2 - 3 new Special Characters they'll sell to the niche marine players. Theoritically, you can have 72 Centurions in an army over 2000pts (probably not practically), where as you could still only have one IronHands CharacterGuy.

Don't pretend you have some superiority over me because you happen to play Dark Angels and Space Wolves as well. I have a small Imperial Guard army that I don't have listed since I don't bring it out, as well as Tau.

So your main argument is that - "they were in one book so they always have to be there" - even if no one uses them? So why do I not have my Nefarti rules - I have the model but I can't use it as her (although I can as a Vampire) - the world did not end...........etc. What other reason do you have to keep them or more improtantly make them unique to Ultramarines - the primary army you play?

My good reason is I would rather have 3 Good SC's per Chapter than various poor Legacy ones - and as you keep saying anyone can use them - they just have to use the tactics for that Chapter or ally them in, but the issue is currently player s will have to use the Ultramarines one - for no apparent reason. It also seems to have made the writters focus on UM again as they have the most SCs/ possibly best Tactics so more people will play them and so the circle carries on.

I would rather they did not release a horrfically poor looking plastic kit that I will never use - no matter what the rules are for them. I think the concept and appearance is some of the worst work that GW have done and thats following truely shocking attempts at crowbaring in Space Marines flyers

re bias - I have substantial armies for all except Chaos Marines and Chaos Demons -and that my point - I am not playing one army and a few allied units..............

Killian wrote:
When they come out with individual supplements for these chapters all the bitching will be for naught.

Which comes accross as "Screw you guys - I have my stuff - you can wait and pay extra .............."

**Killian**

Mr Morden wrote:

Which comes accross as "Screw you guys - I have my stuff - you can wait and pay extra .............."

Oh I'm sure they will have an Ultramarines one too. Why would they pass up the chance for more money?!

**Crazyterran**

Anpu42 wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
On the other hand, getting 6 Assault Centurions anywhere is going to be a pain in the ass. 19 S9 AP2 on initiative attacks on the charge sounds great, but... getting them there, on the other hand... >.>

Two words: Land Raiders

Even a Crusader can't carry six.

I suppose it can carry five, though.

So your main argument is that - "they were in one book so they always have to be there" - even if no one uses them? So why do I not have my Nefarti rules - I have the model but I can't use it as her (although I can as a Vampire) - the world did not end...........etc. What other reason do you have to keep them or more improtantly make them unique to Ultramarines - the primary army you play?

My good reason is I would rather have 3 Good SC's per Chapter than various poor Legacy ones - and as you keep saying anyone can use them - they just have to use the tactics for that Chapter or ally them in, but the issue is currently player s will have to use the Ultramarines one - for no apparent reason. It also seems to have made the writters focus on UM again as they have the most SCs/ possibly best Tactics so more people will play them and so the circle carries on.

And if Ultramarines players want to use their Scoring Sternguard list from 5th, they have to use Crimson Fists. If Crimson Fists players want to use a beatstick, they have to use Imperial Fists (presuming they don't share), and if Raven Guard want to have awesome bikes, they get to use White Scars. If Imperial Fists want to have the rules to back up a Jump Pack strike force, they use Raven Guard... it's the same for everyone. Except, you know, the only character that changes scoring units in the army is a non-Ultramarines Character, and the most widely used character in the 5th Edition book is a Salamanders one. In fact, the vast majority of characters used out of the 5th Edition book was non-Ultramarines ones!

But, of course, the Ultramarines get all the love, woe for everyone else. Clearly the Ultramarines need to lose all of their fluffy special characters, because the Iron Hands need to have one or two, even though their chapter doesn't work anything like other Codex Chapters. Instead, of, you know, just adding a few extra characters! But clearly we need to take away from those greedy Ultramarines!

So, your 'good' reason is essentially, despite the fact that everyone will have to adjust to the Chapter Tactics/Special Characters change, 'screw the Ultramarines'.

Also, please tell us more about how amazing you are for all the different armies you play, and how unbiased this makes you.

EDIT: Though in fairness, the Iron Hands do get boned, but they've gotten boned since before fourth edition in a very continuous basis. At least Forge World gives them some indirect love via Sons of Medusa.

**Mr Morden**

No yet again you did not read my post - I said 3 GOOD SCs for ewach Chapter including Ultrmarines - you know trhe ones you went on and on about how poor they are............

Please keep reminded us all how fixated on one army you are and how the smallest change to your beloved chapter screws you over.

I play Ultramarines FFS - can't you read

**Crazyterran**

Mr Morden wrote:
No yet again you did not read my post - I said 3 GOOD SCs for ewach Chapter including Ultrmarines - you know trhe ones you went on and on about how poor they are............

Please keep reminded us all how fixated on one army you are and how the smallest change to your beloved chapter screws you over.

I play Ultramarines FFS - can't you read

It doesn't screw me over at all. And yeah, I even said you played Ultramarines. Maybe you should read my posts? And, having three equally good characters for each chapter is an idiotically impossible task. Someone would still be getting shafted, tears ensue.

And, seven characters isn't a 'small' change. It would be needlessly removing seven characters. I would be just as annoyed if someone suggested removing Lysander, Pedro, Vulkan, or any other character from the book. In fact, previously, I was excited when there were older rumors saying that there would be an Iron Hands Iron Father character and Salamanders character.

Just because I don't agree with what you say and get on my knees for you doesn't mean I'm not reading your post. Maybe you are expressing your thoughts poorly. Or maybe your posts are stupid? Then again, you are clearly so much superior to anyone who thinks that the Special Characters should stay, because, you know, you play so many armies.

EDIT: Clearly I am focused solely on the Ultramarines. Maybe I should start crying how Ultramarines lost stuff that made them unique between the 4th and 5th edition books? Tyrannic War Veterans! Oh noes! Ultramarines Honor Guard and the Axes of Macragge! Oh noes!

Oh wait, those were good changes for everyone. Yay!

**Leth**

It is amazing how we have been told that we dont have all the information on how these things work but are already decrying them as bad, or screwing people over, or other such nonsense.

Here is the thing that was clearly covered. YOU CAN ALLY WITH THE BOOK.

So you want Tigerius in your army? all it requires is that you take a minimum of 2HQ 3 Troops. Now if you want to min/max everything with the chapter tactics then no you can't. But outside of that almost everything that was possible before is still possible now. I used to run pedro and lysander, I still can if I want to because I can ally him in. They will even have all the same rules for combat tactics. Now I will probably not do this anymore because from the sounds of things other units will make my list work better.(It will be interesting to see if Space Marines get access to all the core rulebook disciplines)

Want telion? take a squad of scouts. Chronus? Simply add a small ultra marines detachment.

They even went out of their way to make the ultramarines chapter tactics pretty good so you are not even really hurting your army by taking a small ultramarines detachment that you can then further specialize.

Seems like they tried their best to make models useable in any army and I am grateful for the diversity available especially when you factor in allies, even from other space marine army books.

Iron Hands from what I gather are going to have it better than they have had it since chapter approved.

BT are getting rolled in, but short of the ultramarines I think they are getting the most special characters, their own special HQ and units configurations as well as being updated instead of being forced into the update que behind whatever other books would come along. Overall I think that is a bonus.

Ultramarines have the most special characters, they have the most chapter tactics diversity but guess what. THEY REPRESENT THE MOST CHAPTERS IN THE SETTING.

Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

**Mr Morden**

Look - you started the vitrol in your first reponse so don't come over all high and mighty now................

Its not removing people from the universe, its removing charcters that you say no plays cos they are rubbish and swapping out ones that people would - or is that impossble.

Plus if its Soooo impossible I guess there won't be any new characters in the the other SM codex's as apparently it just too hard to do this for anyone else - sorry not hard "Idiotically impossible?" So we should just give up and not bother trying - wonderful...........

So why is it ok to "bone Iron Hands"beacuse they always have?

**tomjoad**

Leth wrote:

Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).

**Crazyterran**

Mr Morden wrote:
Look - you started the vitrol in your first reponse so don't come over all high and mighty now................

Its not removing people from the universe, its removing charcters that you say no plays cos they are rubbish and swapping out ones that people would - or is that impossble.

Plus if its Soooo impossible I guess there won't be any new characters in the the other SM codex's as apparently it just too hard to do this for anyone else - sorry not hard "Idiotically impossible?" So we should just give up and not bother trying - wonderful...........

So why is it ok to "bone Iron Hands"beacuse they always have?

Coming off high and mighty? How could I! I mean, you play every army in the game but the Chaos ones - it's not like you don't know better than everyone else!

So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!

Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!

And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.

Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.

tomjoad wrote:
Leth wrote:

Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).

They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.

**Naw**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
It could be the folk are underestimating how 'Special' the special characters are meant to be

Lysander (for example is unique), a one of a kind, special. There is only one of him

so you shouldn't be able to put a lookie-likey into a homebrew chapter

Yes, I can see how that makes sense. Next time in a tournament with ny Eldar if my opponent fields e.g. Eldrad I will point out to him that he is not allowed to field him, because Eldrad is unique. Doh.. You were being sarcastic, were you not?

**Godless-Mimicry**

Well this thread escalated quickly.

**mwnciboo**

I find it really difficult to see GW's framework or thoughts behind the way they do things.

For example the IF get Lysander - But he's not even the Boss - Vladimir Pugh is...But they get the 1st Captain instead.

UM's get a full choice and Extra low level characters like Sergeants.
Raven Guard get Shrike, but No Chapter Master.
Salamanders get Vulkan He'stan (4th Company Captain) , but no Tu'Shan who is their Chapter master.
White Scars get Kor'sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) , But no Chapter Master Jubal Khan.
Iron hands get an oversized drill bit inserted in the rear.

I think a Chapter Master and another Captain is fair for every founding Chapter. A few others for chapters of Note :-

Crimson Fists, Cortez & Kantor.
Black Templars etc.

They could even Share Special Rules, so you get a special Command Option, and another "Bigger Brother Version" Command Option. They are the same Chapter so would share their rules. Instead we get a scattergun, nonsensical crazy set of options.

**Mr Morden**

Crazyterran wrote:

So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!

Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!

And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.

Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.

Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.

24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........

Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?

Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?

**battlematt**

So far I am very happy with the rumors. I play Hawk Lords, which are a successor chapter to Raven Guard. I have been collecting a painting for years now and yes I have won a few tourneys. I have never used any of the special charters as I think they belong with their home chapter. What will change for me now is, I will ally with Shrike and the Raven Guard. This means that I will have to buy and paint a few new models. I hope that this will cause people to paint more chapters to ally with. I am excited about this, imagine all the combos that this will bring to a tournament.
This is the biggest change to marines I can remember. While I do feel for the people for whom this change will be difficult, I think that these changes fit how marines work and improve the game as a whole.
Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".
And now back to the "sky is Falling" thread.

**tomjoad**

Crazyterran wrote:

tomjoad wrote:
Leth wrote:

Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).

They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.

I've seen it said that a libby cannot just take Null Zone every time as is done now, but no mention yet of there not being a new discipline, with or without Null Zone. Aside from NZ, I think the other C:SM powers have been incorporated into the main rule book, so maybe SM won't get a discipline all our own for this reason, but I'd still be surprised if this was the first new codex that didn't include even one new power for its psykers to take.

**Anpu42**

mwnciboo wrote:
Instead we get a scattergun, nonsensical crazy set of options.

But they look like Fun nonsensical crazy set of options!

**MandalorynOranj**

battlematt wrote:
Special charters are supposed to be special not something that you see teamed up together in every tourney list. Maybe Shrike or Calgar or whatever will have the spotlight that they deserve. I hope my opponent will see my SC and go "holy crap is that who I think!".

Why would they ever do that? They're a piece of plastic/metal/resin that is commercially available to everyone. The thing is, while in the fluff and the background, you're right, these special characters are unique and rare, once you actually look at the game, there's nothing "special" about them other than the rules they bring to the table. It's not like Calgar will only show up in your list by some flight of fancy because there is one Calgar model roaming the world, dropping into games as it pleases. You see a character in the codex, you like the rules and want to use them in a game, you pay the points. That's the extent to which they are special.

**battlematt**

No they lost their uniqueness when you could take them all together without any restriction. I mean who cares what chapter they are from when they are all piled together in a cheese list.

**Crazyterran**

Mr Morden wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:

So, three Special Characters for every 'main' chapter represented in this book - twenty four, if we include the Crimson Fists. Making them all good would be absolutely impossible. There would still be brokenly good ones, terrible ones, and there would still be tears. Not to mention the tears over the fact that the Codex: Space Marine book would have twenty four characters while all other books are lucky if they have eight or nine. Unless, of course, you didn't mean every one of the main chapters, in which case, who is it okay for them to not get the same as the others, since you want everything to be completely fair!

Clearly, according to you, just adding an Iron Hands character or two is right out of the question. We have to remove Ultramarines characters to make room! Instead of just adding a Master of the Forge character with a Captain's statline that has a few unique rules that represent an Iron Father for the Iron Hands. Nope! Get out of there, Chronus! Goodbye, Telion! Adios, Sicarius!

And I didn't say it's okay to bone the Iron Hands, just that's the fact of the matter.

Did you even play during Fourth Edition? I mean, seriously, did you? If not, you shouldn't really be talking about how terribly bad other chapters have now.

Yes I played 4th ed - and the other editions too.

24 SCs - Ok, thats fine, its a bigger book than other codexes if I read it correctly so thats fine - and yes lets have 3 each rather than 6 and 1 each (or none) - and if there is not room - then yes lets take out some redundant UM characters (which is you view on them remember) and put them in the special UM codex that will then come out? The Badab books managed 22 Scs..........

Why is some fairness so bad ? Why do other Chapters have to make do?

Again you have not answered the question - why is it impossible to create any new SCs for other Chapters but somehow other marine players should sit quietly and emrely wait for their expensive special codexes where these "Impossible" SCs wiull somehow appear?

It's not, ideally there would be no supplements and it would all be in the main codex. Also, the badab *books* did have twenty two special characters. Over multiple books. As in, more than one, and each of those Badab Books are probably bigger than the Codex: Space Marines is going to be.

They could also make new Special Characters without removing anything. I also didn't say that the Ultramarines characters are redundant, I just said that they aren't competitive/good. Cassius (or any Chaplain) is not competitive. I would love for them to add Tu'shan, Vladmir Pugh, Jubal Khan, and whomever the Raven Guard Chapter Master is. They could've added them all into the Codex, and I would have been thrilled! More flavour is good!

Doesn't mean they'd have to remove anything.

All I'm arguing is that they don't need to remove anything. You are the one turning this into things needing to be removed to make room for others, when people are perfectly capable of using the characters already available. I would be overjoyed if they added more characters - it adds more depth to the overall story. However, removing characters to add characters means that somebody is losing out for someone else - and that's stupid. Who's to say that if they removed Telion, Chronus, Sicarius, that they would necessarily add anything to replace them? They didn't replace Coteaz, for example.

tomjoad wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:

tomjoad wrote:
Leth wrote:

Zion could you add that to the list of questions? What disciplines do regular librarians get access to?

Quite a few pages back it was said that we'll keep the same disciplines from the main rule book as we have now. I haven't seen anything saying there won't be any new powers for us to roll for in the new codex though, so that remains a possibility (and I'll be surprised if there isn't a SM discipline in there).

They already said there is no Space Marine unique power tree, and that Tigurius is getting Divination rather than his own unique power.

I've seen it said that a libby cannot just take Null Zone every time as is done now, but no mention yet of there not being a new discipline, with or without Null Zone. Aside from NZ, I think the other C:SM powers have been incorporated into the main rule book, so maybe SM won't get a discipline all our own for this reason, but I'd still be surprised if this was the first new codex that didn't include even one new power for its psykers to take.

I think I read somewhere that they won't be replacing our Codex powers, but I'm too tired to look now - maybe tomorrow. (or later today, but it isn't tomorrow until I sleep, damnit!)

**Anpu42**

battlematt wrote:
No they lost their uniqueness when you could take them all together without any restriction. I mean who cares what chapter they are from when they are all piled together in a cheese list.

That is are reson to buy/play APOC

**AgeOfEgos**

General warning--some of the responses in this thread are skirting the line between spirited disagreement and becoming personal. Remember, toy soldiers and all that. Thanks.

Ryan