Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have to imagine the obvious answer to this question is "It's Parmesan with a side of Mozzarella," but I was wondering why wouldn't GW/the Imperium use more heavy weapons on Terminators.

I mean, they can tote around assault cannons, so you'd think they could handle plasma cannons, heavy bolters, multi-meltas, and lascannons (already have MLs covered with CML).

I suppose in terms of rules you could incorporate them into the standard Terminator Squad, making them the more shooty group (maybe 1 Heavy weapon per 2 or 3 Terminators (though CML and Assault Cannon is still 1 for every 5) vs. 1 for every 5 like right now), and then have the assault terminators in the other elite slot.

Also, I know mainly it's the realm of the Sternguard, but it might also be cool to allow them access to Special Issue Ammunition for, say, 5 pts a man.

Dark Angels have plasma cannons. I really don't think terminatoes need to become heavy weapons squads.

In the old days the fluff said Terminators were mainly used for clearing enclosed spaces where mobility wasn't a priority but close range firepower was (Space Hulks, urban environments etc)

Hence assault cannons and heavy flamers.

The answer is simple, it's because Terminators were originally used for close quarters engagements and boarding actions. Typically in a fortified bunker that the Terminators are charging into or the confined corridors of a starship during a boarding action it is difficult to carry around heavy weapons. The lascannon alone wouldn't fit around corners whether it was carried by a Terminator or not. The two most common heavy weapons are the Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer because the Assault Cannon can spray the now breached hole with lead and the Heavy Flamer can fill it with promethium.

That being said, it would be nice if GW would give us some more weapon options in the new Codex. I wouldn't mind, and I can't believe I'm saying this as a Marine player, if they nerfed Storm Shields a bit or at the very least allowed a Terminator squad to take shooty weapons and a Storm Shield in place of their heavy weapons. I feel that ever since Storm Shields got so good no one but desperate Black Templar players are taking Storm Bolters and Power Fists or the exceptionally terrible, especially after 6th edition Furious Charge nerf, Lightning Claws.

My hope is that in the next Codex Terminators will get some new toys to play with in the ranged department area and while I don't expect Lascannons or Plasma Cannons anytime soon, some enhanced Bolters or the ability to Skyfire with Missile Launchers might see the resurgence of shooty Terminator squads.

They don't need to nerf storm shields.

What they should do is make tactical terminators cheaper. Like, say, 35 points each. And make Assault Cannons 20 pts and keep the other 2 weapons the same.


Tactical terminators put out a lot of firepower, but they are a little too expensive for it. 6th did make 2+ armor a little better in the assault, which was the real reason Th/SS was so good.

Before, any type of power weapon armed enemy could go in and dominate tactical terminators before they got to swing. Now only a few units can do that and kill them before they swing, like Incubi. After all, a unit of PF terminators is the same as a unit of thunder hammers offensive-wise.

No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

Heavy weapons are rather against the point of terminators not only in the fluff, but on the table top as well. Taking your best armored units, with the best close combat weapons, and putting them behind some trees and having them plink with a machine gun or three is a hideous waste of said armor and close combat power.

It makes sense to give them a little bit of heavy weaponry to add a little versatility just in case, but terminators are not devastators. Fluffwise, devastator are devastators. Game-wise, there's no reason to take an already expensive unit and make it even more expensive by giving it gear that it will rarely use.

How about a compromise, Terminators with Heavy Weapons of the usual variety with Shields?

Still a waste.

A devestator with a lascannon costs 51 points. A terminator with a storm shield and a lascannon would cost 75 points. And honestly, it might well cost more due to the combining shooting and stormshield thing, which would make them even better, so the fair price would be more like 80.

For a single lascannon. And all you get is +1 to your armor save, and turning a 4+ cover into a 3+ invul. The slightly better saves aren't worth the massive points cost those would have to face.

Fluffwise, it would make a lot more sense to put those lascannons on predetors or devestators who are already doing those jobs of long range support shooting, rather than giving them to units that can survive being up close.

For this to work, you'd have to have a Terminator Devastator squad. We already have Tactical and Assault, after all.
The thing is, Tacticals get access to one or two heavy weapons but because they have power fists, they pack a punch in combat too. Devastators would have to lose the fists - leaving the only reason you'd take them over normal Devastators is the ability to move and fire at full BS. If you need them moving that usually means you need them up close, where they'd want to have those fists still.

It's a confused unit concept that doesn't really sit well with the rest of the army.

Nobody remembers Cyclone missile launchers and reaper autocanons.

Obliterators...

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Obliterators...

...cost 60 points each. Nobody wants that for vanilla Marines.

I feel like giving a squad of Terminators heavy weapons would be a complete and utter waste. They're close range shock troops, not backfield dudes with lascannons.

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

yeah, even for 45 points TH/SS just offer too much for too little. SS should be 4++ in either shooting or CC and 3++ in the other.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

yeah, even for 45 points TH/SS just offer too much for too little. SS should be 4++ in either shooting or CC and 3++ in the other.

Sadly Draigo and the DAs have spoken, storm shields will continue to pass out the best no strings attatched invulnerable save in the game for at least another edition.

Dark angels th/as termies are 49 pts each, blood angels are 45, I think codex marines will be between 45 and 49, not the cheap 40 they are now

 Formosa wrote:
Dark angels th/as termies are 49 pts each, blood angels are 45, I think codex marines will be between 45 and 49, not the cheap 40 they are now

they will be 45 points most likely, or they will come with additional rules and be more. Still they are too good at 45 points.

 Formosa wrote:
Dark angels th/as termies are 49 pts each, blood angels are 45, I think codex marines will be between 45 and 49, not the cheap 40 they are now

Or someone atupid will hear about all the whining about how assault sucks and make assault termis cheaper/more potent.

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

sounds more like the whinging of someone who thought high AP weapons are how one takes down a terminator...

terminators are very expensive for what they do. in some armies, they aren't even troop-able, so for some they are just tough guys with 1wound.

 Super Ready wrote:

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
Obliterators...

...cost 60 points each. Nobody wants that for vanilla Marines.

They cost 70 points, and come with worse leadership and no ATSKNF, and have slow and purposeful.

How many tourneys are terminators winning? How many did they win in 5th? Thats right, just about none. Terminators OP? hell no.


Tactical terminators need to be able to take 1 heavy weapon per 3, min squad 3, and cost 35 points. This would make them usable as versatile platforms. At that cost they are effective in melee or short range.

Assault terminators should be reduced to 37 points and land raiders need to come down in price. No one uses terminators anymore because they are ineffective at killing any army with even a tiny bit of speed. They have no range, no speed, and juts get kited all day long. TH/SS in a land raider is simply too expensive for killing one unit then having the terminators die to small arms fire or be kited around.

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

yeah, even for 45 points TH/SS just offer too much for too little. SS should be 4++ in either shooting or CC and 3++ in the other.

Sadly Draigo and the DAs have spoken, storm shields will continue to pass out the best no strings attatched invulnerable save in the game for at least another edition.

Yeah! Those Termies are totally obscene with their 2+/3++ saves, they're the most OP thing since Pulsa Rokkits!

*happily goes back to smashing face with a re-rollable 2++ LoC*

 Brother SRM wrote:
I feel like giving a squad of Terminators heavy weapons would be a complete and utter waste. They're close range shock troops, not backfield dudes with lascannons.

Why would they need to sit at the back? They can teleport and are relentless. They can dance on their tippy toes right down the enemy's throat with any weapons they like, and would probably be better off with heavy bolters rather than storm bolters

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

sounds more like the whinging of someone who thought high AP weapons are how one takes down a terminator...

terminators are very expensive for what they do. in some armies, they aren't even troop-able, so for some they are just tough guys with 1wound.

Yeah, because AP2 weapons are intended to be used to ignore 2+ armour..... but wait, that 2+ armour also has a 3+ inv.

I'm well aware that massed fire is the best way to bring down TH/SS termies, They require a hefty amount of it, though, and are pretty much a guaranteed kill on anything they do manage to reach. They are, if anything IMO undercosted, but you're welcome to your opinion.

It does bring up the point though. Why create an AP 2 weapon category when the main source of 2+ armour (terminators) aren't the intended target of it? Remember that in 5th, when this occurred, AP2 wasn't the buff to vehicle damage charts that it is now, so it wasn't so they'd be better anti-vehicle. A Disintegrator, for example, is S 5, AP 2. Why not make it S 5 AP 3, since you're not supposed to be using it on termies anyway? It's not like it's an anti-tank weapon. Plasmaguns? Why would they be AP 2 rather than AP 3, since the only army that has access to massed 2+ saves is Marines using terminators (and i suppose Ork Meganobz, but with no invulnerable they are prone to getting chumpslapped all to easily).

There is precious little 2+ armour out there that isn't some form of SM Terminator, so what IS the intended target of AP2 weapons that AP 3 guns aren't intended for, in your opinion?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
No, they really do need to nerf Storm Shields.

Allowing a 2+ model a 3+ invuln was fething slowed, and they are cheap for what they do.

Making other termies cheaper just pushes the imbalance more out of whack.

Of course most SM players will consider this heresy

yeah, even for 45 points TH/SS just offer too much for too little. SS should be 4++ in either shooting or CC and 3++ in the other.

Sadly Draigo and the DAs have spoken, storm shields will continue to pass out the best no strings attatched invulnerable save in the game for at least another edition.

Yeah! Those Termies are totally obscene with their 2+/3++ saves, they're the most OP thing since Pulsa Rokkits!

*happily goes back to smashing face with a re-rollable 2++ LoC*

There most certainly are strings for Kairos, like bad dice rolls meaning you never get said save or actually get a worse one.

TH/SS termies are not the only 2+ save in the game. They arent even a significant portion. Almost all 150+ point HQs are 2+ save and things like dredknights, riptides, GK, chaos, or DA terminators (dont get SS), or armored shell tyrants are all prime AP2 targets. Then you see the occasional Sanguinary Guard, 2+ save wraithguard or bikes via warlocks, lone wolves in TDA, 2x CML BT termies, and Wolf guard termies.

Also, AP2 is twice as likely to punch through th/ss terminators as a non-ap2 wound. So yeah, doubling your effectiveness is pretty decent.

 Ascalam wrote:
It does bring up the point though. Why create an AP 2 weapon category when the main source of 2+ armour (terminators) aren't the intended target of it? Remember that in 5th, when this occurred, AP2 wasn't the buff to vehicle damage charts that it is now, so it wasn't so they'd be better anti-vehicle. A Disintegrator, for example, is S 5, AP 2. Why not make it S 5 AP 3, since you're not supposed to be using it on termies anyway? It's not like it's an anti-tank weapon. Plasmaguns? Why would they be AP 2 rather than AP 3, since the only army that has access to massed 2+ saves is Marines using terminators (and i suppose Ork Meganobz, but with no invulnerable they are prone to getting chumpslapped all to easily).

There is precious little 2+ armour out there that isn't some form of SM Terminator, so what IS the intended target of AP2 weapons that AP 3 guns aren't intended for, in your opinion?

Terminators abandoning their firearms and not caring about their 2+ to pick up a Stormshield is a reactionary measure. AP2 is indeed meant to combat TDA, and that is why players started putting Stormshields on their Terminators. If AP2 is out of the question, any other configuration barring maybe LCs is superior to the TH/SS load out, including PF and Storm Bolter.

One of the DoW2 intro cinematics even has a Blood Raven Terminator get blindsided by a plasma shot to his face and melting.

I didn't say th/ss were the only 2+ in the game

I said that SM termies are the MAIN source of 2+ armour, both in th/ss and regular varieties (and the chaos sm ones..still sm) , and AP 2 weapons were intended to take out 2+ armoured targets, in rebuttal to the claim above that AP2 weapons aren't for killing termies.

Orks only have one 2+ save HQ (2 if you buy mega armour for a warboss. Buying it for a Mek is rather futile as you give up the only reason to take it. Meganobz are 2+ save also.

DE -. Drahzar has a 2+ save. No-one else has a 2+ armour save, regardless of their price point

Eldar Pheonix lords have a 2+, but i think they are the only ones. (edit: wraithguard are 2+ now? Need to get the new eldar codex to read..)

No Daemon i know of comes with a 2+ save (though you can achieve a 2++ with gifts and a little luck, if you play tzeentch)

Tau commanders perhaps - don't have the new book, but you could buy the 2+ armour upgrade in the old one. No other 2+ saves in the book that i know of

Necrons reserve 2+ saves for Hq's only afaik. Could be wrong as i don't have the new dex.

Nids have armoured shell tyrants (but everyone runs them as flyrants instead so you don't see them often) and Tyrannofex (also rarely seen)

Then you have every SM dex's Terminators, plus a fair few 2+ armoured HQ's.

Given the overabundance of SM armies, the main 2+ save you are likely to run into is Termies.

AP 2 guns are good for killing regular termies, as you are reducing a 2+ save to a 5++, but against TH/SS you are only reducing it by a point. Still helps, but AP 2 weaponry also tends to be rare, expensive and fire few shots, so you're generally better of just boltering them down with half your army instead...

I think on the "why is there AP2 weaponry if it's meant to destroy termies who just get a 3++ anyway" question:

GM might have realized something like that was going on, but probably not to that much of an extent. Instead of hitting termies with the nerf stick, they added more 2+ save stuff (MCs, etc), and then tweaked the vehicle damage chart to make AP2 more useful there too.

Not to mention, with the addition of flyers, assault termies can't even get at everything on the field, which makes them a little less useful in terms of meta, and the general cost of fielding them while protecting them (land raider transport) tends to get them close to 500 points for a unit of 5.

And of course, that's points that you can't put towards anti-air, which you definitely need this edition. 5 SM assault termies + LR + ADL = 550 points. That's pretty expensive.