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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
People hate playing tau for the same reason they hate playing against most IG players.

Because sitting through a 30 minute turn 1 shooting phase does not a fun game make.

and I say that as an IG player

Pretty much this.

How does it really take that long? I don't even understand how you could draw that conclusion. Yeah Tau are a shooty army, but that doesn't mean they have more guns somehow than what any other army could field. They don't really have anything that could really draw out the shooting phase than just trying to pick target priority, which should have been decided during the deployment phase.

And really that would imply that it's not fun to face orks when they are rolling 18 handfuls of dice.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How does it really take that long? I don't even understand how you could draw that conclusion. Yeah Tau are a shooty army, but that doesn't mean they have more guns somehow than what any other army could field. They don't really have anything that could really draw out the shooting phase than just trying to pick target priority, which should have been decided during the deployment phase.

And really that would imply that it's not fun to face orks when they are rolling 18 handfuls of dice.

It isn't fun to face orks.

I can't tell if the TC is trolling, or really trying that hard to find a reason for people to stop hating Tau. I'm going with option 1.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How does it really take that long? I don't even understand how you could draw that conclusion. Yeah Tau are a shooty army, but that doesn't mean they have more guns somehow than what any other army could field. They don't really have anything that could really draw out the shooting phase than just trying to pick target priority, which should have been decided during the deployment phase.

And really that would imply that it's not fun to face orks when they are rolling 18 handfuls of dice.

You'd be surprised how long it can take, especially with premeasuring and if your opponent starts the dreaded "well I could shoot this, but I need to shoot that..." dance. Debates over what's in range, LOS issues, rules questions, etc.

If you have a relatively new player, this can be even worse.

Again, I say this all as experience as an IG player. I've been on both sides of that kind of turn.

This is ruling out rules disputes, random table shenaniganery, or having to do a lot of look out sir rolls, etc.

Also, any army can be unfun to play if the player is a jerk or the player brought a list inappropriate for the game (uber competitive to what was thought to be relaxed or vice versa) that's not anything specific to Tau, orks, IG, or any other codex.

If you mean me, i'm not into trolling. if it's been perceived that way i cant help it.

I started the thread with good intentions but failed. it happens.

But why all the tau hate? We're seriously not that over powerful.
Eldar for example have things like 3 wraith knights that are T8 with 26" S8 ap 2 weapons that move 12" and have 6 wounds
psychic powers that can make them harder to kill.
AP 1 possible weapons on all units with catapults.
twin linked if you have a scatter laser.
one of the best transports if the game (except no assault).
move shoot and run or move run and shoot.

compared to tau who have lower bs
no cc ability.
a T6 riptide that can wound itself 30% of the time and gets hot or misses loads.
marker lights on maybe 2-3 units in an army that have to hit first in order to do anything.
if the opponent gets in 7" we're pretty much fethed.
10 point t3 troops with 4+ save or 6 point ones with t3 and virtually no save.
We have a good cheap HQ which give the opponent more points.
We have no psykers.
and to make matters worse we have to skirt round people or its game over.

I fail to see how we're that OP as everyone keeps saying. i dont look at allies personally though.maybe that's the issue.

Boniface wrote:

Compared to a list with a bastion hiding a single dude in the corner and 8 flyers

That army loses almost every game.

The only people who hate it are people who'd like to play an interesting game.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
You'd be surprised how long it can take, especially with premeasuring and if your opponent starts the dreaded "well I could shoot this, but I need to shoot that..." dance. Debates over what's in range, LOS issues, rules questions, etc.

That can literally be done by any slow player with models that have guns. It's not a Tau or IG exclusive thing. Now that most people don't plan for assault too much, it doesn't make sense that Tau always get singled out for being a shooty army that only shoots when most other army lists tend to maximize shooting and can bring just as many guns.

If you have a relatively new player, this can be even worse.

Again, I say this all as experience as an IG player. I've been on both sides of that kind of turn.

This is ruling out rules disputes, random table shenaniganery, or having to do a lot of look out sir rolls, etc.

Also, any army can be unfun to play if the player is a jerk or the player brought a list inappropriate for the game (uber competitive to what was thought to be relaxed or vice versa) that's not anything specific to Tau, orks, IG, or any other codex.

So the complaint is against people that don't know their army or game long enough to play the game smoothly, can't plan ahead, and/or are being uneccessarily rude. This isn't just against you, I see a lot of people try to make this complaint that Tau shoot a lot, like somehow their shooting phase just seems to last longer. When other armies have the same ability to take their time moving, shooting, running, casting psychic powers, selecting psychic powers and selecting targets, assaulting, and such. What is the Tau element in this, because I don't seem people crying about IG gunlines. I don't see complaints about Ork shooting heavy lists with dakka jets for extra dice rolling fun. Nobody cries over how long it takes to resolve shooting with the Dakka Banner DA. What is the Tau element that makes hate? Is this their secret warp power manifesting or something?

To brighten up the match whenever I face a Tau player I call him Comrade as much as I can While either dropping wolves into his gunline in drop pods or outgunning him with an artillery regiments worth of pie plates.

People do complain about how long IG and orks take to shoot though. I keep saying Tau aren't unique in that regard, other armies are guilty of it too (hence why I keep reminding you I'm an IG player.)

If you've really never heard someone complain about IG or Ork shooting phases as well you need to get out more. They probably get more flak than Tau to be honest.

I'm really not sure what's the point in arguing this further, you seem to be taking this really personally for some odd reason. Tau is known for long shooting phases. This is a thing. Many people have seen it firsthand. Just chill out and do your best to avoid perpetuating the stereotype. Its what I do when I play my armies.

tau singlehandedly messed up the meta. That alone makes people hate them lol whether theyre op or not

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
...and just saying: Necrons are the only 6th codex so far, iirc, with no Skyfire. Seeing the cost of Heavy Destroyers, they should totally have Skyfire and Interceptor.

This is patently wrong, considering the fact that they can field a viable competitive army consisting of nothing but Zooming fliers which, by definition, have Skyfire.

And well there's that and they are a 5th ed dex. You can say a you want that they were designed with 6th In mind but they were still made in 5th

Boniface wrote:
Although i'd rather work toward the greater good of all than be a zealous brain washed puppet of a xenophobic dictator.

Oh the irony, change one word and this can basicly be the motto of every Imperium player.

The main reason I dislike Tau is because its one of the top-tiered codexes, while Im stuck with a mediocre one. Its not really that fun to see codexes being written on the basis of them taking their antidepressants for the month. Sure you love Tau, they were brought out at the top of the emotional rollercoaster, now its just waiting for another codex thats going to end up on the bottom of it. Also their kinda mary sue fluff of never truly losing, takes the grimdark out of it.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Although i'd rather work toward the greater good of all than be a zealous brain washed puppet of a xenophobic dictator.

Oh the irony, change one word and this can basicly be the motto of every Imperium player.

The main reason I dislike Tau is because its one of the top-tiered codexes, while Im stuck with a mediocre one. Its not really that fun to see codexes being written on the basis of them taking their antidepressants for the month. Sure you love Tau, they were brought out at the top of the emotional rollercoaster, now its just waiting for another codex thats going to end up on the bottom of it. Also their kinda mary sue fluff of never truly losing, takes the grimdark out of it.

..You mean besides the whole Tyranid nomming large swaths of planets thing? Along with losing to the Imperium in several key wars?

People don't hate Tau, they just hate certain Tau players.

Boniface wrote:
If you mean me, i'm not into trolling. if it's been perceived that way i cant help it.

I started the thread with good intentions but failed. it happens.

But why all the tau hate? We're seriously not that over powerful.

Yes, you can help it. By not making posts like this. You're simply dismissing people's concerns, you're not addressing them in the least. Your line of reasoning in your first post was "people should love Tau because Tau can take out this OTHER incredibly cheesy army, and that prevents people from using it". That simply makes no sense. That doesn't prevent anything, it just prevents people from using it against Tau(possibly).

You displayed no good intentions, you just gave BS reasons for people to stop disliking Tau. I am simply more convinced you're a troll. On the chance you are not, you need to figure out how to argue better. I highly recommend you pick up a couple books on persuasion. Dismissing the actual concerns by not even mentioning them and then stating some BS benefit is a logical fallacy meant to distract from the actual issues.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
People do complain about how long IG and orks take to shoot though. I keep saying Tau aren't unique in that regard, other armies are guilty of it too (hence why I keep reminding you I'm an IG player.)

If you've really never heard someone complain about IG or Ork shooting phases as well you need to get out more. They probably get more flak than Tau to be honest.

I'm really not sure what's the point in arguing this further, you seem to be taking this really personally for some odd reason. Tau is known for long shooting phases. This is a thing. Many people have seen it firsthand. Just chill out and do your best to avoid perpetuating the stereotype. Its what I do when I play my armies.

The difference between the lengthy shooting phases of tau and imperial guard is marker lights. So while yes the both do a lot of shooting, but at least with imperial guard you get to be involved by rolling saves.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Although i'd rather work toward the greater good of all than be a zealous brain washed puppet of a xenophobic dictator.

Oh the irony, change one word and this can basicly be the motto of every Imperium player.

The main reason I dislike Tau is because its one of the top-tiered codexes, while Im stuck with a mediocre one. Its not really that fun to see codexes being written on the basis of them taking their antidepressants for the month. Sure you love Tau, they were brought out at the top of the emotional rollercoaster, now its just waiting for another codex thats going to end up on the bottom of it. Also their kinda mary sue fluff of never truly losing, takes the grimdark out of it.

..You mean besides the whole Tyranid nomming large swaths of planets thing? Along with losing to the Imperium in several key wars?

Well the Tyranids were a minor fleet and even so the Tau pulled off some feats that other races didnt, like the guerilla war on a planet against the steam roller/carpet race. You mean the crusades of the Imperium which only did superficial damage and have already been fixed/repaired, off course after that its now impossible for the Imperium to do anything else due to the convenient saviour in the form of the Tyranid fleets showing up.

 xole wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How does it really take that long? I don't even understand how you could draw that conclusion. Yeah Tau are a shooty army, but that doesn't mean they have more guns somehow than what any other army could field. They don't really have anything that could really draw out the shooting phase than just trying to pick target priority, which should have been decided during the deployment phase.

And really that would imply that it's not fun to face orks when they are rolling 18 handfuls of dice.

It isn't fun to face orks.

It is for me and most of my opponents, at least you're still killing Orks, Guard, Cultists, or Tyranids by the bucket load even if you lose.

Well to be honest most people hated tau when they still used their 4th edt codex. I have had people complain to me about using tau in 5th edt when i was first starting out thats how bad the hate was. The thing is people love to have something to hate.

I think the problem stems from giving Tau a little too much capability in shoring up their weaknesses. The idea for a competitive environment is to allow people to bring a list that can 'deal with' most if not all of the current meta.

The practical side, unfortunately, is that the meta is dominated by the list that can do what it does SO well that ...unless an enemy is specifically designed to stop it...cannot be stopped by a TAC list.

The Tau are a different animal. Their ability to counter most listbuilding techniques is inexpensive and placed in such units that they can still do what they want to do amazingly well. They are a hard counter and a beast in shooting, hence the hate.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
People hate playing tau for the same reason they hate playing against most IG players.

Because sitting through a 30 minute turn 1 shooting phase does not a fun game make.

and I say that as an IG player

Hey, at least you can own it, though.

Skriker

Tau combine the worst of camping shooty armies with the ability to not only strip armor saves, but also cover saves that many armies rely on. Then they have built in counters to things that shooty armies fear: assault. Then you throw in cheap upgrades to grab interceptor on heavy fire platforms. Guard does one thing well, shoot you off the board. However they can be countered by deepstrike or fast, tough assault units. Tau have a lot of solutions to those things that made shooty armies have to think about composition and use some modicum of tactics. for the most part, tau dont really have to react to much of anything besides hopping jump jet units forward and backwards. They can castle up and attrition you down faster than you can them.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
People don't hate Tau, they just hate certain Tau players.

This is pretty much whats up.

Every time someone has a miserable time playing against Tau, it is probably because it was one of those lists where the Tau player turtled and took forever to think about every dice roll/measurement.

If you think about it, most armies can build a list with a similar play style and actually have it be competitive. The main problem is that people buy Tau under the assumption that they are a shooting army and their job is to use their long range to sit back.

A veteran Tau player, someone with a brain or anyone who enjoys "actively" playing the game will see that the army has plenty of mid-field potential with units requiring some finesse.

Side note: These "30 min shooting phases" are 100% linked to the player not the army. My 1750 Tau army takes about 10-15 minutes max to carry out a shooting phase and that includes some chit chat. I don't see what is so hard about: "These fire warrior are going to shoot at your ork boyz" (10 seconds required to check range and grab a few dice).... you then roll, grab the 4+ rolls, roll again and pick out the 3+ rolls, then he rolls a few cover saves. That took maybe a minute max - repeat for however many units you have.

 troa wrote:

Boniface wrote:
If you mean me, i'm not into trolling. if it's been perceived that way i cant help it.

I started the thread with good intentions but failed. it happens.

But why all the tau hate? We're seriously not that over powerful.

Yes, you can help it. By not making posts like this. You're simply dismissing people's concerns, you're not addressing them in the least. Your line of reasoning in your first post was "people should love Tau because Tau can take out this OTHER incredibly cheesy army, and that prevents people from using it". That simply makes no sense. That doesn't prevent anything, it just prevents people from using it against Tau(possibly).

You displayed no good intentions, you just gave BS reasons for people to stop disliking Tau. I am simply more convinced you're a troll. On the chance you are not, you need to figure out how to argue better. I highly recommend you pick up a couple books on persuasion. Dismissing the actual concerns by not even mentioning them and then stating some BS benefit is a logical fallacy meant to distract from the actual issues.

Ok so maybe looking at it objectively the thread is a Troll on the basis that it serves no merit and is inflammatory. That doesn't mean I am a troll or even had that intention.

As for argument/persuasion skills, truly enough you are correct, I haven't really made a substantial enough effort to do either.
But honestly I was getting a bit sick and tired of seeing thread after thread of tau hate.
Thought it might be nice to see a thread about tau in a positive sense, although sufficiently backing that up is impossible.

Since Tau were first released they have been hated (seemingly irrationally).

Ok genuine reasons why people should like Tau.
We're good allies, we can prevent other armies from being out of control just by existing. If you're making an allcomers list you need to consider Tau. We broke the meta which means things like triple drakes and necron flyer lists are no longer feasible and therefore can't be used to ungodly affect on other armies.
Breaking the meta is good also because new lists will come out with new combinations of units that haven't been used in a while. Variety is the spice and all that.

At present we viewing Tau in a semi vacuum. There are plenty more codices to come out yet to square things off.

Honestly I don't believe I can convert popular opinion. People are far to entrenched. tau are the race everyone loves to hate.

Hmm nahh... I still hate tau. Silly and obnoxious rules, silly and obnoxious models. Thanksgiving turkey battle suits, fish head people, dreadlock jarjar people and ugly mosquito men... no thanks.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
People hate playing tau for the same reason they hate playing against most IG players.

Because sitting through a 30 minute turn 1 shooting phase does not a fun game make.

and I say that as an IG player

Perhaps, but then you make up for it by not getting into assault until turn 4.

 Kain wrote:

 xole wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
How does it really take that long? I don't even understand how you could draw that conclusion. Yeah Tau are a shooty army, but that doesn't mean they have more guns somehow than what any other army could field. They don't really have anything that could really draw out the shooting phase than just trying to pick target priority, which should have been decided during the deployment phase.

And really that would imply that it's not fun to face orks when they are rolling 18 handfuls of dice.

It isn't fun to face orks.

It is for me and most of my opponents, at least you're still killing Orks, Guard, Cultists, or Tyranids by the bucket load even if you lose.

I agree, horde armies are almost always fun to play against, especially if you yourself have an elite army. Makes for an excellent "cinematic" 40k moment to stave off hordes of gaunts or boyz while the bodies pile up. I think if more Tau players tried to use the mobile and aggressive parts of the codex instead of castling all the time the army would be seen in a less negative light.

Boniface wrote:
Since Tau were first released they have been hated (seemingly irrationally).

Ok genuine reasons why people should like Tau.
We're good allies, we can prevent other armies from being out of control just by existing. If you're making an allcomers list you need to consider Tau. We broke the meta which means things like triple drakes and necron flyer lists are no longer feasible and therefore can't be used to ungodly affect on other armies.
Breaking the meta is good also because new lists will come out with new combinations of units that haven't been used in a while. Variety is the spice and all that.

At present we viewing Tau in a semi vacuum. There are plenty more codices to come out yet to square things off.

Honestly I don't believe I can convert popular opinion. People are far to entrenched. tau are the race everyone loves to hate.

Why do you say seemingly irrational? Most posts here have given valid reasons why they dislike Tau. When they were released they were the nice guys, the new hope from all the impending darkness. But that was the attraction of 40k, the impending doom. The Tau, like the Newcrons were disliked because of their new fluff, which seemed at odds with 40k. Fluff wise they are quite boring imho, as they never seem to suffer long-term negative consequences, seemingly like the Ultramarines.

Off course breaking up the ''meta' is good, it forces people to adapt, try new tactics. It stops being positive when you have to get Tau allies just to be able to do something in this new 'meta'. Being forced to include Tau to make an allcomer list doesnt appeal to people who want to win, but are also trying to keep it fluffy (the allies chart is already messed up). Getting allies shouldnt be the anwser, but with GW's way of making codexes different in use/power it seems to be the only one for low tiered armies taking on higher tiers. What youre saying is if Im losing I should try taking Tau allies, off course if I win, my opponent will start doing the same, untill we all end up with the same army.

While your statement about Tau being in a semi vacuum is correct, you should also realize that only the IG can possibly challenge their shooting dominance. No other upcoming codex will feature such heavy firepower, as its not the character of that army. The Tau are amng the top right now and this will probably not change during this edition barring major changes.

People hate an army for a reason (already provided in similar threads all over) mostly and hating Necrons is also still pretty big next to Tau. If the majority of people dislike Tau does it really matter that much to you? Is your local 'meta' really that hostile against them, because thats the place where it matters.

I don't understand how Tau allies really helps anyone. You would be forced to bring markerlights just to buff a hammerhead or Riptide to ignore cover. I just don't see it as cost effective. I personally think that taking Tau as allies would be a hinderence since you're not getting to enjoy the benefits of synergy in the Tau codex. I'm not saying it would be bad, but nothing as simple as the Heldrake where it relies on nothing more than itself and brings other units as a bonus. With Tau you bring one unit, then bring another to get the bonus.