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Hi, after recently getting back into 40k since last playing in third, i find my mate's tyranids keep mulching me so want more flamethrowing goodness to deal to them. Deciding between a hellhound or a chimera w heavy flamer carrying toon command squad with 2 x flamer and 1 x heavy. I know the hound has better range but will the chimera mke up or that in being able to hose a single target with 5 templates or 2 different targets at once?

Neither. 4x flamer PCS in a Vendetta is the correct choice. The Chimera can only move 6" and fire (and can only fire one of its own flamers if it moves at all), and the fire point is at the back of the hull so getting shots with the passengers is difficult at best unless you disembark. The Hellhound is the clear winner between the two since it can move 12" and then drop the template another 12" away, meaning you might actually get to flame something before your unit dies. The only problem with the Hellhound is that it is a fast attack choice that isn't a Vendetta, which means it doesn't actually exist.

Yeah, those vendettas sure are good at tearing through termagant hordes!

Yeah see i'm still getting my head around flyers and their rules, didn't know troops could fire from them! Thatd be a pretty badass unit, has there been an update allowing spec weapon squads to take transports? 2 x flamer squads in a vendetta would be even better

 Talore wrote:
Yeah, those vendettas sure are good at tearing through termagant hordes!

The Vendetta's job is to deliver the PCS. I'm sure it will have plenty of MCs to shoot at while the PCS flames the little bugs.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Yeah see i'm still getting my head around flyers and their rules, didn't know troops could fire from them!

You can't. You disembark the PCS on a suicide run, the Vendetta just ensures that your flamers get to their target asap while being a powerful gunship in addition to delivering the flamers.

Thatd be a pretty badass unit, has there been an update allowing spec weapon squads to take transports?

They can ride in any non-dedicated transport just like any other unit. The limit on which units can ride in a transport is gone in 6th, the only thing that matters is that a unit can't start the game aboard a dedicated transport that was bought for another unit (and Vendettas are not dedicated transports, they're fast attack).

2 x flamer squads in a vendetta would be even better

You can only have one squad in a transport, never 2+. Fortunately a 4x flamer PCS and a 3x flamer SWS, each in their own Vendettas, is a good choice. Unless you're playing a very small game it's hard to go wrong with 3x Vendettas and appropriate passengers as your fast attack choices.

Troops cannot fire their weapons while embarked upon a vendetta. Special weapon squads cannot take dedicated transports of their own. My previous post was sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.

EDIT: Beaten by half a minute D:

Sarcasm doesn't translate to text very well.

Regarding the OP's question, for taking out squishy hoards both are very good choices, but with different roles.

The Chimera is primarily for delivering scoring troops to objectives. A lot of flamers in them makes them good for clearing an objectives, especially in cover. The problem with the Chimera is that they are not fast, so moving very much means snap firing, and you can't snap fire flame templates. Check the rules regarding passengers and firing.

The hellhound however is fast. It also has a much better, and versatile, threat range due to how you place the flame template.

Proxy one up and play around with it. It's good fun, but I usually use platoons for my anti-hoard.

Why not both? You are going to need troops right? Get the PCS with 4 flamers in a chimera and get a hell hound to zoom up next to it. Remember one of them is going to die before you get to do anything so having both will ensure at least one tank gets to flame something.

I also say skip the heavy flamer and just max out on regular flamers. You're aiming at gaunts right? You already ignore their armor and you already wound on 3's. so skip the very costly heavy flamer. Use those extra 15points for...more flamers! Or smoke launchers on the hellhound or something.

make a guard blob squad to protect the home front with flamers in it, and yes, hell hounds do work very well, and yes, you can take a fast attack that is not dettas with no issues... I run a squad of 2-3 hell hounds, and with LOTS of success, especially with all the xenos players now.

usually get about 10+ hits with them, and usually 10+ deaths.

gives the enemy something else to worry about, they have a hard time deciding weather to shoot the HH's, all my massed long range stuff, or the troops.

Go hellhound, save chimera for command units (it gives an extra bit of range to all of their orders!). Good points brought up about the range issues between the two as well, hellhound wayyy outranges the chimera.

As far as vendetta goes, I don't like putting command squads in them, as I find CCS's and PCS's to be some of the most valuable units in a footslogging army because of FRFSRF. That being said, if you're not running a bunch of platoons, I guess most of their commands become a hell of a lot less useful.

Hellhound, 100% hellhound.

Unlike vendettas, a hellhound is a fast vehicle that starts on the board, which means it's frying gribblies turn one, rather than turn 2, or sometimes turn 3, and the guys inside don't need to risk mishapping with their scatter as flamers pile out the back.

Unlike a chimera full of flamers, the hellhound is fast, and has decent side armor (which you'll want if you're getting close to stuff to prevent the worst of flanking fire), and, much, much more imporantly, has torrent. That means you've got a weapon that it has a 12" range, rather than a 0" range, so you're firing it faster (once again, firing turn one, rather than turn 2 or 3), and you're firing it much, MUCH better what with being able to twist the template around to get as many hits as possible.

With the chimera, you can get up to 3 heavy flamers and 3 regular flamers, compared to the one heavy flamer and the inferno cannon, which may sound like a deficit to the hellhound, but because you're actually going to get to use that inferno cannon, and use it well, while the regular flamers may or may not get killed before you get to use them, and they're likely only hitting a couple of models in a single blast.

The chimera does give you a nasty, nasty overwatch, but the hellhound is fast enough, and with a long enough range to be able to avoid close combat for a few extra turns (if not possibly avoid it altogether). And that chimera can always get blown up and the few dudes inside killed off before overwatch happens anyways, which is going to be more likely if you have to be closer to your opponent's stuff, and have worse armor.

And actually, as an added bonus, the hellhound can take a hull heavy bolter and shoot both it and the inferno cannon after having moved 12", or they could take pot-shots at MCs (which, with a little creativity, you can use the inferno cannon to still shoot at infantry while doing) with multimeltas that can do the same.

I second the hellhound between the two options OP is considering. I've been running 2 hellhounds and vendetta lately in my 1500pt games and they've been working pretty well together so far. Having those flame templates on the board turn 1 is pretty nice. You can get a first turn flame off or get into better positioning with their speed. Once turn two rolls around you're in optimal position to light things up and you'll probably have your flier on to boot.

I would reserve more special weapons for your CCS and vets in chimeras. Plasma comes to mind to help deal with MCs and any multi-wound infantry.

You may also want to consider a Manticore...those things make hordes cry.

Thanks for the advice, ive been playing mostly 1500 to 1750 point games and have found i always lose my command elements from both guard and allied marine detachments to that annoying doom character the nid have. Hence a reshape, i am now going to take a librarian for the null zone and a commisar for rerolls. Putting the pcs in a metal box prevents them succumbing to the doom itself, yet from what i can work out i can still use the reroll on the footsloggers who will surround the chimera. I have recently acquired a stormtalon and am hesitant to sink 130 dollars plus the forgeworld lascannons into a vendetta until im playing larger games, though must admit pretty much every guard tactics page has spam vendettas. While useful for hunting mcs, after that i just cant see lascannons being that helpful. The rules you have mentioned re the hellehound are really good, also i like the fact that i can swap the guns for other battles. Might do as suggested and proxy each (the guy whose house we play atbhas just about one of every model ever on his display shelf) for a game and see what works best at 1500pts. I was originally running marines but have changed to guard for the deluge of infantry you can bring, which seems to be the key in 6th. Sternguard and whirlwinds have been the only unit pulling their weight so far!

From what everyones said here it sounds like hellhound is the go, anyway it could be useful against that doom thing? Seriously, how cheap is that thing! Always gets dropped once my squads are stuck in cc and i lose 10+ troops a turn from there on.

Well, concerning the vendetta you don't need to spam it to have a decent list, and as for building one, I just made mine using lascannons from heavy weapons kits, which turned out to be a lot more cost-effective than FW.

In the mean time, if your opponents are ok with it, just proxy the stormtalon in as your vendetta.

Also, if you're having trouble with doom, just load up on meltaguns then and stick your CCS and PCS in chimeras. Regardless of how many wounds he sucks from your grunts Str 8 means instant death either way on a failed 3+.

As somebody who regularly uses Scarabs, I totally support Peregrine.

Never use Hellhounds, only Vendettas. Hellhounds totally don't scare me more than Vendettas and I think they are poop. Never use Hellhounds, only Vendettas.

But the hellhound is as fast as your scarabs and instant kills them....maybe they are poop if they drive straight at you. The hellhound can move 12" just like your scarabs but can also flatout 12" as well. You either waste time chasing it or get flamed when you try to attack something else. Sure sure there are many "what if's" but I think you're basing that assumption on maybe one (probably new) IG player.

 portugus wrote:
But the hellhound is as fast as your scarabs and instant kills them....maybe they are poop if they drive straight at you. The hellhound can move 12" just like your scarabs but can also flatout 12" as well. You either waste time chasing it or get flamed when you try to attack something else. Sure sure there are many "what if's" but I think you're basing that assumption on maybe one (probably new) IG player.

He was being sarcastic. Notice the repetition of words like 'totally.'

 Chumbalaya wrote:
As somebody who regularly uses Scarabs, I totally support Peregrine.

Never use Hellhounds, only Vendettas. Hellhounds totally don't scare me more than Vendettas and I think they are poop. Never use Hellhounds, only Vendettas.

Yes, if you are list tailoring to beat a Necron scarab list you should take Hellhounds. If you're making a TAC list you should take Vendettas.

I'm just wondering what your Manticores are doing throughout all of this OP? Are these not considered mandatory for TAC IG anymore?

Wait..sarcasm..on the internet? I thought this magical place was exempt from such base human behaviors such as sarcasm.

Ah yes......I get the sarcasm of that statement now. Repetition of the word totally only gave me the impression Chumbalaya was a Valley girl. :p

Who says I'm, like, not?

Whatever

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I'm just wondering what your Manticores are doing throughout all of this OP? Are these not considered mandatory for TAC IG anymore?

Getting nommed by outflanking genestealer/gaunt blob. Well, technically my russ and whirlwind were. Manticore was sitting on the shelf at games workshop store for 98 bucks that got spent on a talon for next time as two hive flyrants made short work of all my rhino teams. Tempting though. My only concern is my usual nid oponent has almost all his stuff in reserve so id have nothing to nuke.

Bear in mind most of my woe comes from the simple fact i am a relative noob, to 6th anyway, and the 3 guys i game with are quite experienced. Though in saying that in a 3 way capture the relic mission i did considerably better, destroying almost all the nids and daemons, but didnt have enough troops to get the objective (hence my move from marines to marines w guard detachment, to guard with marine detachment now). I learnt that 6th is not the slugging match that third was and there are a lot more special rules to consider. I seem to remember vehicles being a lot sturdier in 3rd, as i used to play against orks a lot and always induced rage by bringing a couple of baal preds.

Hellhounds all the way. They do terrible things to Nids.

Also, with squadrons, how are you ever stuck with your last FA slot, deciding between a Hellhound and a Vendetta?

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Well, concerning the vendetta you don't need to spam it to have a decent list, and as for building one, I just made mine using lascannons from heavy weapons kits, which turned out to be a lot more cost-effective than FW.

In the mean time, if your opponents are ok with it, just proxy the stormtalon in as your vendetta.

Also, if you're having trouble with doom, just load up on meltaguns then and stick your CCS and PCS in chimeras. Regardless of how many wounds he sucks from your grunts Str 8 means instant death either way on a failed 3+.

I made mine out of 2 discarded and the "Landraider Terminus Ultra" upgrade sprue they sell on the GW site. All in all it should cost you less than $25 for the upgrade (or less if you're lucky) as Lascannon bitz can still go for cheap now and again on Ebay, but it really isnt hard to make them.

Also, don't discount the Valktrie missle pods and door Heavy Bolters, it could be a real horde killer.

Hellhounds do fine in squads. If you're taking hull multimeltas, then two shots is better than one at BS3. If you're just talking about the inferno cannons, you'll help guarantee you get enough hits to make up for what just one can't, and without having the problem of placing a template down, then removing the models, and then having to template again.

3rd (albeit pricier than id like) option: vulture. Anyone use this? Tips for converting from valkyrie? It seems like the total silver bullet to hordes, but then ive thought that about whirlwinds, russes and plasma cannons too and been very very wrong...

pax_imperialis wrote:
3rd (albeit pricier than id like) option: vulture. Anyone use this? Tips for converting from valkyrie? It seems like the total silver bullet to hordes, but then ive thought that about whirlwinds, russes and plasma cannons too and been very very wrong...

Actually yes. I converted one a long time back. Here's the tutorial.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/297152.page

Try to ignore the paint job...definitely one of my earlier ones and not the best.

Wow, that actually looks amazing, really great tutorial thanks! How do they go in game? Im assuming punisher cannons would be the ideal load?

pax_imperialis wrote:
3rd (albeit pricier than id like) option: vulture. Anyone use this? Tips for converting from valkyrie? It seems like the total silver bullet to hordes, but then ive thought that about whirlwinds, russes and plasma cannons too and been very very wrong...

The Vulture is great. The punisher cannons are an excellent weapon against infantry of all types (even terminators die when they have to make that many armor saves) and average 6 HP a turn against vehicles if you can get into AV 10 (with vector dancer and flyer mobility to get you there). The only drawback is that it isn't a transport so it can't handle the Vendetta's job of getting scoring units onto objectives late in the game.

And I wouldn't bother converting from the Valkyrie, unless you're just gluing the alternate Vulture weapons under the Valkyrie's wings. The Vulture kit isn't that much more expensive than a Valkyrie and you're going to spend a lot of time and effort on any decent conversion.

 Peregrine wrote:
And I wouldn't bother converting from the Valkyrie, unless you're just gluing the alternate Vulture weapons under the Valkyrie's wings. The Vulture kit isn't that much more expensive than a Valkyrie and you're going to spend a lot of time and effort on any decent conversion.

At this time probably not, but if you like converting then it may be up his ally. I should mention when I converted that valkyrie it was before GW's price hike, so over here in the US I think the Valk was 50USD at the time and the FW vulture was a bit out of my budget. I'm not sure what prices are like over in New Zealand, but one of the posters from Australia on my tutorial mentioned the Valk was more expensive than the Vulture. I'm not sure if it's a regional thing or not, or if you benefit from the same price difference, but, yes, if you want a more interchangeable model and don't necessarily care about looks, pinning the vulture weapons underneath a stock valkyrie might be your best option.