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AerialAssault:
Due to the largely open construction of its decks and the sophisticated targeting matrices used by its crew, a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew’s full Ballistic Skill.”
redkeyboard wrote: If you move more than 6" then you can only snap shot with the guys inside.
Wan't that also the case in 5th? Am I wrong there?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/12 22:51:30
I mentioned why I believe DE Mech builds to be sub-par. I think there are other, very similar builds that will far outperform them, i.e. 6-8 Serpent Mechdar or Bakery Necrons. Both armies can get the alpha strike on DE pretty easily. I can't imagine a Mech DE list vs. a Scythe list going well for the DE player at all, unless the DE player were of a much higher skill level. The same goes for Serpent spam. Both function similarly to venom spam but I think they are better due to their increased durability.
IMO, 2 HP and AV10 is just a bit too flimsy to rely on exclusively. I think Venoms are still plenty good, I just wouldnt rush to fit 6-9 into a list and would rather take a more balanced approach.
AerialAssault:
Due to the largely open construction of its decks and the sophisticated targeting matrices used by its crew, a Ravager that moved at cruising speed may fire all of its weapons using its crew’s full Ballistic Skill.”
redkeyboard wrote: If you move more than 6" then you can only snap shot with the guys inside.
Wan't that also the case in 5th? Am I wrong there?
Ahh I never knew about the Ravagers thank you. And as for the second point its been a while since i looked at the 5th edition rulebook but I thought with fast vehicles you could disembark after 12". I am most likely not recalling that correctly, so just disregard the post.
StarTrotter wrote: I'd concur with the above. I'd argue that Tyranids might be Tier 2 (I will note however that this is with a very limited list that is very predictable). Daemons are hard to rank because of their randomness and being a rather unpopular army.
Maybe in your area but Daemons seem to be all the rage around New England.
I avoid certain FLGS because over 50% of the armies are Daemons.
Yeah, Daemons are EXTREMELY popular. I think only Tau and Necrons are currently more popular, though I imagine Eldar will overtake Crons.
redkeyboard wrote: Ahh I never knew about the Ravagers thank you. And as for the second point its been a while since i looked at the 5th edition rulebook but I thought with fast vehicles you could disembark after 12". I am most likely not recalling that correctly, so just disregard the post.
Respectfully, I almost never disregard people's posts. (just those people on my ignore list)
People should always be listened to, and I make tons of mistakes -- so I'm not one to judge when we make them
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LValx wrote: The same goes for Serpent spam. Both function similarly to venom spam but I think they are better due to their increased durability.
IMO, 2 HP and AV10 is just a bit too flimsy to rely on exclusively. I think Venoms are still plenty good, I just wouldnt rush to fit 6-9 into a list and would rather take a more balanced approach.
I think every build you can make has bad counters. Serpent spam and Crescent Cafe are two good ones.
The problem is that there are probably a lot of Serpent Spam lists in big events. Its an extremely solid list and tons of people have serpents sitting in the collection.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 23:02:30
Yeah, if Bakery/Serpent spam weren't so popular, I wouldn't feel as nervous about building pure mech DE. However, both of those armies will always be encountered at events. Hell, Serpent spam may be the best list in the game currently (too early to tell, but in my experience they are awfully good at everything). I don't expect a TAC list in 6th edition to be completely devoid of bad matchups, I could accept say a 40-60 split. Unfortunately I think Mech DE vs Mech Eldar or Flyer Crons would be more of a 20-80, or even worse, obviously not in favor of the DE.
This isn't all just theorycrafting either, i've played Scythe heavy armies vs. 5th style DE and it was absolutely brutal, if not unfair for the DE player. It is incredibly difficult to hide from both Scythes and Serpents, as both move as fast or faster than Venoms and both of the aforementioned transports also boast the perfect firepower to take down DE skimmers.
1; fliers are either stupid strong or waste of time. There is no "its goood but not awesome" flier.
2; assaulting is dead except for very fast or virtually unshootable units. And even they have issues.
3; Challenges both nerfed many and buffed many characters. There are a ton of melee monsters that are good in normal assault but ravage anything in challenges. And likewise there are characters that have no hope in a challenge...space marine powerfist sergeant anyone? I hate this rule over all others in 6th.
4; vehicles under av13 are almost useless. Some are fine but most are a waste now. Hull points made high av killable and low av unable to even get lucky.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
I've had extremely good luck thus far using DE as allies for my serpent spam. In my current list I'm bringing 4 serpents, 2 venoms and 1 ravager.
Why? A few reasons. One of them is footprint. 7 serpents takes up a huge amount of board space. That can work against you in a lot of situations. Venoms take up significantly less, giving you a bit more room to move your firepower around.
Venoms don't care about a MCs toughness. Yesterday I was playing my buddy's screamerStar list. In one game he had a T8 DP coming at me. I grounded it with the serpents then lit it up like a Christmas tree with the venoms and warriors inside.
Venoms can carry grisly trophies. When combines with warlock seer councils its stupidly good.
Venoms are great targets for the dual 'guides' that my farseers often wind up having. When your army consists of nothing but serpents and seer jetcouncils, those powers are otherwise near useless.
I only use 2 venoms and 1 ravager for 4 serpents. You can see they are not the majority of the force, but only a small element.
So far I've had very good luck with the list. I've managed to table most of my opponents with it. On the 24th I'll take it to an RTT then to NOVA afterwords. Ill let you know how it performs there if you like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 23:16:35
1; fliers are either stupid strong or waste of time. There is no "its goood but not awesome" flier.
2; assaulting is dead except for very fast or virtually unshootable units. And even they have issues.
3; Challenges both nerfed many and buffed many characters. There are a ton of melee monsters that are good in normal assault but ravage anything in challenges. And likewise there are characters that have no hope in a challenge...space marine powerfist sergeant anyone? I hate this rule over all others in 6th.
4; vehicles under av13 are almost useless. Some are fine but most are a waste now. Hull points made high av killable and low av unable to even get lucky.
I take contention with point #4. I think your statement is a bit too strong. Low AV/HP vehicles are fine, but they need to be able to deliver an alpha strike to be worth it. The DE skimmers are fast and have access to Nightshields, DE also can make good use of the 50% chance of nightfight on turn 1. With a good board it'll be very easy to hide some venoms and that will ensure you the alpha strike and since pure mech has almost completely fallen out of favor, your venoms will almost always have viable targets (especially in a meta of MCs).
I've had extremely good luck thus far using DE as allies for my serpent spam. In my current list I'm bringing 4 serpents, 2 venoms and 1 ravager.
Why? A few reasons. One of them is footprint. 7 serpents takes up a huge amount of board space. That can work against you in a lot of situations. Venoms take up significantly less, giving you a bit more room to move your firepower around.
Venoms don't care about a MCs toughness. Yesterday I was playing my buddy's screamerStar list. In one game he had a T8 DP coming at me. I grounded it with the serpents then lit it up like a Christmas tree with the venoms and warriors inside.
Venoms can carry grisly trophies. When combines with warlock seer councils its stupidly good.
Venoms are great targets for the dual 'guides' that my farseers often wind up having. When your army consists of nothing but serpents and seer jetcouncils, those powers are otherwise near useless.
I only use 2 venoms and 1 ravager for 4 serpents. You can see they are not the majority of the force, but only a small element.
So far I've had very good luck with the list. I've managed to table most of my opponents with it. On the 24th I'll take it to an RTT then to NOVA afterwords. Ill let you know how it performs there if you like.
Unfortunately, i'll be missing NOVA, but definitely PM me with details of how you do. That list sounds VERY nasty and IMO epitomizes how DE/Eldar combos should be handled. I think taking a council or beastpack is a great starting point and I totally agree that a few Venoms can go a long way. I'm actually shocked you can fit all that in at 1850!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 23:20:38
Of course theres still the oddball vrhicle that doesnt evaporate the instant it shows its low av face. But in general, they suck.
vehicles with a jink or invul have a chance to survive even at low av. But theres what 4 armies that do either? And tau are av13 front so theyre even better lol.
Sorry using my phone since im on escort duty atm. Watching a dude work is boring lol
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
I have no issue with those that think DE weak. It's the misconceptions and comparisons that tend to irk me at times. I can field a venom with dual splinter cannons and some wracks for 95 points. MSU Wave Serpent is 200 points. We cannot compare apples to oranges.
I know DE transports are easily taken down but we can field a heck of a lot of them cheaply. And they can be outfitted to serve different purposes ... AT or AI. And yes, ravs can move 12" and fire.
All DE vehicles (except the dias, lol) can get both jink, flickerfields and nightshields. I have taken out wave serpents before they have downed my ravs/raiders. So yes, 2 or 3 HP only and AV10 is not great. But we can still get use out them. You do not see people complaining about razorbacks being weak - well some do.
Nec Ani barges will almost always get a lance pen against them if you are playing a dark/light list. Then they are just chimeras. We can add AA with our flyers or we can ally in AA. No our flyers are not OP. But they serve their purpose.
So yes, DE have certain weaknesses and certain strengths. But there are a lot of options to play with. Off hand eliminating the cc potential in De lists is always an obfuscating argument. Beast packs, grot squad raiders all can still work well. The archon is still a major cc threat. Overwatch is not the be all end all of cc.
It is okay not to like the way DE play but they are still better or at least as good in 6ed then they were in 5th ed. The opposition just improved. So we need to think a bit more when constructing a list, when deploying, when advancing. We need to play like DE not like Necs or Smurfs or Tau.
DE are a list I feel that I have at least a chance against with as many 48" weapons as I usually bring with BA. I'm fast, they're fast, but I have slightly more range, even with the funky field they have. Their shooting is better overall, but I can crush a lot of their units in HTH.
DE are still good, they were never meant to be so tough they just walk up to enemy lines like it's their own house. The Dark Eldar mentality is more in line with run in, kill 'em all and worry less about return fire. Their gameplay can reflect this.
So many people saying DE are ineffective cuz of not assaulting from the Webway (which was a huge kick in the nuts to wych, wrack or grotesque heavy list, damn shame for those that sunk the money) but, that doesn't invalidate Trueborn, Venoms, Raiders, Ravagers.
As for assault, BeastPack is its' own top-tier, with Baron or a Jetbike Farseer with Shard of Anaris (guaranteed Fearless).
Eldar (Craftworld Sahal-Deran) 2500pts. 2000pts Fully Painted.
Dark Eldar (Kabal of the Slashed Eye) 2000pts. 1250pts Fully Painted.
I have no issue with those that think DE weak. It's the misconceptions and comparisons that tend to irk me at times. I can field a venom with dual splinter cannons and some wracks for 95 points. MSU Wave Serpent is 200 points. We cannot compare apples to oranges.
I know DE transports are easily taken down but we can field a heck of a lot of them cheaply. And they can be outfitted to serve different purposes ... AT or AI. And yes, ravs can move 12" and fire.
All DE vehicles (except the dias, lol) can get both jink, flickerfields and nightshields. I have taken out wave serpents before they have downed my ravs/raiders. So yes, 2 or 3 HP only and AV10 is not great. But we can still get use out them. You do not see people complaining about razorbacks being weak - well some do.
Nec Ani barges will almost always get a lance pen against them if you are playing a dark/light list. Then they are just chimeras. We can add AA with our flyers or we can ally in AA. No our flyers are not OP. But they serve their purpose.
So yes, DE have certain weaknesses and certain strengths. But there are a lot of options to play with. Off hand eliminating the cc potential in De lists is always an obfuscating argument. Beast packs, grot squad raiders all can still work well. The archon is still a major cc threat. Overwatch is not the be all end all of cc.
It is okay not to like the way DE play but they are still better or at least as good in 6ed then they were in 5th ed. The opposition just improved. So we need to think a bit more when constructing a list, when deploying, when advancing. We need to play like DE not like Necs or Smurfs or Tau.
Venoms and Wave Serpents may be different in cost but they are very similar in playstyle. Both are fast skimmers that will generally be taken as transports for fragile, small squads. The Serpent is pricier, sure, but it is also far more versatile and far more durable. I believe the mere existence of the Serpent keeps Mech DE from being truly competitive. Str.8 does not fare well vs Serpents, even with AP2. All of this also applies to the Scythe match-up. Good luck beating the more durable and efficiently costed Scythes.
IMODE are best run as a mixed mech/infantry force with a fast, durable assault unit i.e. Beastpack or Seers. I think the old 8-9 Venom, 3 Ravager list isn't balanced enough to be competitive at the GT level.
As for general rules of thumb, armies with low durability have gotten worse, and assault-based armies, with a few exceptions, aren't really worth anything anymore. This means that low-durability armies, even if they can shoot (like dark eldar) are still worse, as are many high-durability assault armies (I haven't seen crowe in awhile). The worst hit, of course, are things like guard power blobs and ork slugga tides, which have been basically rendered unplayable.
As such, you're seeing things like cheap horde-ish units hiding behind an ADL while whoever does the most damage in the first turn (or two) is very, very likely to win the game. Because we now have secondary objectives, any savvy player can force at least a draw on primary objectives (assuming their army survived past turn 3), at which point things devolve to "first blood: the game".
If you're bringing durable shooting, though, you can make a go of it. For the last year, this was achieved with flier spam, but as more AA is coming out, and, much more importantly, absurdly tough and shooty monstrous creatures have come out, it's starting to move more towards MCs and less from fliers. AV14 also isn't bad either.
In an odd sort of way, list design is looking more and more like 4th edition victory points games, except without all the close combat.
Otherwise, 40k is still now much like it was before. It's still a dice game with players playing odds in an attempt to wrest an advantage. Given that there are a bunch more randomly-determined things, I'd say it's even more luck-dependent than before.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: I'm genuinely curious, though I don't play DE too much anymore, as to what you consider the most viable DE list.
That's the thing I think DE have quite a few viable lists:
Mikos is a UKDE player who pretty much goes to a tournament every month, and always seems to place at least in the top 10 (placing 5th in his last two tournaments). Bellow is the style of list he is currently using.
Spoiler:
Baron Sathonyx
3 Trueborn, 2 Splinter Cannon, Venom Extra Splinter Cannon, Grisly Trophies
5 Dark Eldar Warriors, Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon
5 Wych's, Haywire Grenades, Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon
5 Wych's, Haywire Grenades, Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon
5 Wych's, Haywire Grenades, Venom, Extra Splinter Cannon
Beast pack, 4 Beast masters, 10 Kymera, 4 Razorwing Flocks
Ravager
Ravager
Ravager
Farseer, RoW
Jetbikes
Night Spinner
Aegis/Quad gun
Total: 1650
Results/Report ----------------------
Massaen is an OZ DE player who has won quite a few tournaments and played in the Australian ETC team. Bellow is the style of list he is currently using.
Spoiler:
HQ - Baron Sathonyx (joins Harliequins in most cases)
Elite - 3 Trueborn, 3 blasters, venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Elite - 3 Trueborn, 3 blasters, venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Elite - 10 Harliequins, Troupe Leader with Power Sword, Shadow Seer with Harlequins Kiss, Death Jester, 2 Fusion Pistols, 5 Harlequins Kiss
Troops - 5 Kabalites, 1 blaster, Venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Troops - 5 Kabalites, 1 blaster, Venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Troops - 5 Kabalites, 1 blaster, Venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Troops - 5 Kabalites, 1 blaster, Venom, 2 splinter cannons, night shield
Troops - 7 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, Hekatrix, Raider, dark lance, nightshield
Heavy - Ravager, 3 dark lance, night shield
Heavy - Ravager, 3 dark lance, night shield
Heavy - Void Raven Bomber, 2 void lance, 1 void mine, night shield, flickerfield
Results/Report ----------------------
Vassara is a Finish DE player who's part of the finish ETC team and plays in a lot of finish tournaments. Bellow is the style of list he is currently using.
Results/Report ----------------------
Then there's whatever the latest Dark Eldar list Sean has come up with.
----------------------
Personally I have had nothing but success with my reaver heavy list at 1500 points against a lot of netlists, though I haven't gone to any GTs in 6th.
Reports ----------------------
That's just the tip of the ice burgh, but even in such a small sample you can see there is a large variety of Dark Eldar lists that seem to be doing well.
Hope that helps.
LValx wrote: IMODE are best run as a mixed mech/infantry force with a fast, durable assault unit i.e. Beastpack or Seers. I think the old 8-9 Venom, 3 Ravager list isn't balanced enough to be competitive at the GT level.
I can agree with that. Now that reavers and grots have both become fantastic units, and we have access to eldar allies there are a lot more options when it comes to choosing the non mechanised elements of your list this edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/13 08:04:40
The ETC lists are too specific. Generally, a DE army is used as a hard counter to some suitable army. So I wouldn't overestimate these lists if played normally
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wuestenfux wrote: The ETC lists are too specific. Generally, a DE army is used as a hard counter to some suitable army. So I wouldn't overestimate these lists if played normally
Oh I agree ETC is very specific, and dark eldar are used as a hard counter army in that environment.
However I don't believe I said any of these lists were ETC lists, all I mentioned was that some of these players played Dark Eldar for their home countries at ETC. It was just to show that they play the game at a high level.
If you check the result/reports links you will see that these were their lists for TAC tournaments, not ETC.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/08/13 10:54:40
LValx wrote: Venoms and Wave Serpents may be different in cost but they are very similar in playstyle. Both are fast skimmers that will generally be taken as transports for fragile, small squads. The Serpent is pricier, sure, but it is also far more versatile and far more durable. I believe the mere existence of the Serpent keeps Mech DE from being truly competitive. Str.8 does not fare well vs Serpents, even with AP2. All of this also applies to the Scythe match-up. Good luck beating the more durable and efficiently costed Scythes. .
To compare the damage potential of serpents to venoms you need to compare their DPP or damage per point basis.
This is the DPP value of a venom
GEQ : 61.5
MEQ : 20.51
TEQ : 10.25
This is the DPP of a serpent (with holo fields and ghostwalker matrix)
GEQ : 49.38
MEQ : 24.12
TEQ : 10.35
Point for point, the venoms are 20% better at killing guard or daemons than serpents, and about 17% less effective vs MEQ than serpents. This may seem odd at first, but the high strength weapons don't bother GEQ as much as MEQ. They are more vulnerable to massive amounts of shots. Also the underslung can rend, which can cause big problems to MEQ/TEQ.
Serpents are more durable to shooting for the same point cost. This is because of the holo field giving the serpent a 4+ cover, the inherent advantage of AV12 over AV10, and the lack of open topped. Its easier to kill 130 points of venoms than 130 points of serpents due to those reasons.
Oddly enough the venoms are more durable to assault -- assuming the assault can get to you. A single DP will kill 1 serpent if it assaults, and will likewise kill 1 venom. That means the 2 venoms will stick around longer than the 1 serpent. The 2 venoms can also spread out, making them harder to dual assault where the serpent is one model. This is a marginal advantage in today's meta, but its worth noting.
Finally against armor, the serpents pull way ahead. The DE are hell on heels to anything on foot, but in a tank the spinter rounds do nothing. Serpents carry STR 6 and 7 shooting from a highly mobile platform, which means that anything AV12 or less is in trouble.
What does this all mean? Throwing down venom spam will tear up GEQ armies. Daemon players can be in big trouble. Kroot spam can be having a tough day. (though broadsides can solve that problem ) Serpent spam armies will cause big problems for the DE. In big tourneys today, you can expect to see a lot of serpent spam armies.
Mushkilla wrote: Personally I have had nothing but success with my reaver heavy list at 1500 points against a lot of netlists, though I haven't gone to any GTs in 6th.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: I'll be perfectly honest despite my stance on DE; I love that list.
Thanks.
I guess that's what I'm getting at. Lists like that were not possible in 5th. But in 6th they are and they work.
-Large reavers squads work because of the changes to eldar jetbikes, the addition of jink, pre-measuring, bladevanning being in the shooting phase, skilled rider, hammer of wrath (makes them a lot better in assault), etc. In 5th they were terrible.
-10 man warrior squads work because they can now move and shoot 24" and can go to ground in area terrain for +2 to cover saves. In 5th they were too static and fragile.
-Grotesques work because of the changed to FNP, random charge lengths, Look out sir for their babysitting characters, hitting vehicles on 3s, 30" movement of transports when going flat out (they don't care if it gets wrecked, but the extra 6" mobility is really handy) etc. In 5th their accompanying character could get snipped easily and their lack of save against AP2 weapons made them more fragile.
I really feel that on the whole DE have a lot more viable options in 6th than they did in 5th (and that's before you consider eldar allies).
Dark Eldar are always going to be a hard army to play, that's just the way fragile armies are, you make one or two mistakes and it's game over. You either learn to accept that or you don't.
The thing is I think we were a lot worse off in 5th when everyone was running mech and there was no hull point system. Warriors being able to move and shoot 24" means it's now an option to swap out venoms for raiders and more lances. Dark Eldar have always struggled with against AV11-12 spam, 6th has alleviated this somewhat.
Flyers are a bit of a problem, but their damage can be mitigated with good positioning and in that department DE have an edge with their mobility (helldrakes aside). Even against your standard 3-4 scyth, 3 barge, 2 destroyer lords with wraiths list I find Dark Eldar can get by without dedicated AA.
I'm not trying to say Dark Eldar are a top tier army, they never were, but they can still give most netlists a decent run for their money.
Contrary to popular belief I think 6th was a second wind for the Dark Eldar codex, we were in a pretty bad place at the end of 5th.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/13 19:39:31
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
Eldar (Craftworld Sahal-Deran) 2500pts. 2000pts Fully Painted.
Dark Eldar (Kabal of the Slashed Eye) 2000pts. 1250pts Fully Painted. 
