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Do Custodians die of old age?

Since they are confined to the imperial palace after the heresy, they never see any real combat, the only way for them to die would be through old age, right?

Astartes are generally thought to have immortal or near immortal lifespans, none has died of old age as of yet so it cannot be confirmed, the Custodians are seen as super astartes so it would make sense to believe that they have at least the same sort of lifespan as a regular marine.

Given all this, should there not be a heap of custodians still alive after the heresy, and after 10000 years they are still in service, or is it something I've missed that otherwise explains this?

Mercay wrote:Astartes are generally thought to have immortal or near immortal lifespans

Only by people who don't read the fluff in the rulebook, or who simply prefer their own or some novel author's ideas because GW Marines aren't cool enough..

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
- 6E 40k Rulebook p.181

The immortality bit probably comes from the same sources as the "Space Marines are 8+ feet high". I recall the "service studs" on a Space Marine's skull denoting 100 years of service to the Emperor - feel free to click through the miniature selection on GW's website and count the average number of studs.

Fair enough, but it still doesn't completely answer the question!

Well Dante of the Blood Angles is around 1500 years old and in most of the books chapter Masters are around 500 years old , as they are "normal" space marines , Custodians are supposedly a genetic middle between primarchs and space marines so they should be capable of at least living a very long life.

They are probably immortal, I don't think there is any fluffy talking about their age. But they are generally described as being a lot better than a space marine. "they are like space Maine to a guardsman compared to space marines.

Also I don't know if they have geneseeds or not but they sure take a long time to produce.

Mercay wrote:Fair enough, but it still doesn't completely answer the question!

Yes, well ... I don't think there is one answer to your query. This being 40k, details such as these are really left to the imagination of the individual reader, gamer, or novel author!
Personally, I don't believe in this "immortality" stuff at all. It's just too cheap and mary-sue for my taste - not to mention that such technological knowledge would have surely been applied elsewhere as well, up to the point of becoming commonplace for certain influential circles. If the Imperium would have this kind of technology, I would assume the High Lords of Terra would be all over this, because ... hey, indefinite life! Cool! Who wouldn't want that? And since the High Lords tend to stay away from warzones, changes in the government would become rather ... rare.
That's just my opinion, however, and anyone not agreeing with it is certainly free to prefer their own interpretation. Just don't expect to find any sort of gospel in the books.

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

GarretAsh wrote:Well Dante of the Blood Angles is around 1500 years old [...]

Just to exemplify the point I've been trying to make ... the current 40k rulebook says 1.100. Although Blood Angels don't really count for "average" lifespans, anyways.

They presumably still make new Custodians, right? They never leave Terra, they just prance around in the Imperial Palace in their fancy pointy helmets, so they do not die in battle. If they would not die in natural causes there would be no need to ever make more barring one being killed in a freak accident.

 Lynata wrote:
Only by people who don't read the fluff in the rulebook, or who simply prefer their own or some novel author's ideas because GW Marines aren't cool enough..

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
- 6E 40k Rulebook p.181

The immortality bit probably comes from the same sources as the "Space Marines are 8+ feet high". I recall the "service studs" on a Space Marine's skull denoting 100 years of service to the Emperor - feel free to click through the miniature selection on GW's website and count the average number of studs.

Try not to let your contempt be so transparent. That you prefer the codex fluff is fine, but you don't have to let your hatred for other works seep into all your posts.

Also, note the "easily". and the "far longer".

Anyway, no fluff I have seen directly indicates Marines are truly immortal. A few works discuss the subject, like Horus Rising, where Loken notes that they are far longer-lived than humans, but as of yet no Marine has died of old age so any limits on their lifespan can not be accurately predicted.

As for the Custodes, I have never, not once, seen the lifespan of their order brought up.

So, beats me.

Well according to the BA codex Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years, just because the brb writer didn't read the sentence properly doesn't mean it's been retconned. If Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years he must have been a marine for at least 300 prior to that one would think.

Ugly Green Tro wrote:Well according to the BA codex Dante has been chapter master for 1100 years, just because the brb writer didn't read the sentence properly doesn't mean it's been retconned.

Actually, if you take this approach it would mean the BA Codex writer didn't read earlier codices properly, for the 1.100 years of lifespan goes right back to the 2E Codex Angels of Death. It's always been this way, and the 6E BRB merely is repeating fluff that has been established for decades.

It's also of note that the "Chapter Master for 1.100 years" is not actually said in the Codex - this is just the usual telephone game of somebody saying something, then the next person saying it differently. What the Codex does say is that supposedly, a character who was lost in the Warp for a bit less than 1.000 years cannot remember a time when Dante was not Chapter Master. That is a small but important difference.
Either this Codex or the previous one also has a quote from Dante saying "for eleven hundred years I fought the Emperor's foes".

Of further note is the fact that, in this setting, being around over a course of X years does not mean a character actually has to be X years of physical age. Travelling through the Immaterium does that to ya.

Void__Dragon wrote:Try not to let your contempt be so transparent.

Why not? It's more honest this way...

Although I would not call it a "hatred". And to be fair, my issue is less with the material itself, but more with the community's inability to treat it as intended by its writers. The books are fine, if you just regard them as options, or "lenses" as ADB put it. This includes Codex fluff.

(just to be clear, that last past was not directed against OP specifically. he may have been misled by "established wisdom" just as I once was, before putting in the effort to actually hunt down the authors' own advice. my own odyssey is the very reason for me going through the effort of pointing these things out in the first place)

 Lynata wrote:
It's also of note that the "Chapter Master for 1.100 years" is not actually said in the Codex

I don't recall which... but it's in the current BA Codex (indeed, under Dante's own entry) that he's either lived for over 1,100 years, or he's been Chapter Master for over 1,100 years. The current rulebook definitely states the former. In any case it's swung between the two between BA Codexes and the rulebook, and Lysander's memory may also be getting fuzzy in his artificial warp-induced old age.

Regardless - it's not worth considering Dante's age when we're talking about the Custodes, since BA are already noted as unusually long-lived for Marines. It's entirely possible that Custodes live longer than normal Marines and still less than your average Blood Angel...

I'm sure they die in training accidents all the time. How else would they cull the inefficient and poorly performing? I guess any members of the order not up to scratch may also be recycled into combat servitors.


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 Lynata wrote:

Mercay wrote:Astartes are generally thought to have immortal or near immortal lifespans

Only by people who don't read the fluff in the rulebook, or who simply prefer their own or some novel author's ideas because GW Marines aren't cool enough..

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
- 6E 40k Rulebook p.181

The immortality bit probably comes from the same sources as the "Space Marines are 8+ feet high". I recall the "service studs" on a Space Marine's skull denoting 100 years of service to the Emperor - feel free to click through the miniature selection on GW's website and count the average number of studs.

Rogue Trader had the studs as 10 years of service. On that basis, Dante doesn't actually wear a helmet, he just has a head full of stud

The Adeptus Custodes do in fact leave the Palace and partake in the "Blood games", or even infiltrate noble houses searching for treason and intelligence gathering on the powers that be, and conduct other clandestine missions. I would imagine they would even take part in combat in small or individual numbers to maintain their edge. Sort of like the Imperial Royal Guards in Star Wars.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
The Adeptus Custodes do in fact leave the Palace and partake in the "Blood games", or even infiltrate noble houses searching for treason and intelligence gathering on the powers that be, and conduct other clandestine missions. I would imagine they would even take part in combat in small or individual numbers to maintain their edge. Sort of like the Imperial Royal Guards in Star Wars.

But they still don't leave Terra, so only casualties are ones they manage to cause themselves.

But yes, they DO leave Terra to conduct their missions. The only ones who never leave the throne room are the Emperors 300 "Companions". Now they don't go out in mass numbers or to great fanfare, but there are several stories of them doing ....w/e it is you want to call it.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
But yes, they DO leave Terra to conduct their missions. The only ones who never leave the throne room are the Emperors 300 "Companions". Now they don't go out in mass numbers or to great fanfare, but there are several stories of them doing ....w/e it is you want to call it.

What stories? Black Library?

I'm intrigued, I'd like to see a source for these outgoing forces. Last I heard, the 300 "companions" were the ONLY Custodes.

Although it's handled vaguely at times, it's pretty reasonable that SM aren't "naturally" immortal, otherwise it would make zero sense to point out the BA as especially long lived, even for marines (which, no matter the numbers, is without exemptions agreed on). Hypothetically this could just be a statistical thing caused by BA, for some reason, not dying as quick in battle or other circumstances...but seeing as these are the fething BA, that assumption doesn't make sense either.

tl;dr: Why mention an especially long-lived "race" of SM when all are naturally immortal?

As for Custodes "being to SM what SM are to Guardsmen", certainly not to that extent. I think it was Argel Tal who sparred with Aquillion in "The First Heretic" and, while not quite his match, could go toe-to-toe with the Occuli Imperator for some time, something a guardsman should not be able to do with a SM. (No, I don't count Ibrahim Gaunt ).
And, THRONE, I'm pretty sure Custodes don't get turned into Servitors whenever finish in the lower 30% in Custodes High School. That's because making them is always described as a MUCH more intricate process than that used for SM, making the death of one a big waste of resources. Coming back to comparing them, Custodes are unique, mastercrafted weapons from the start, while SM are high-tech, but mass produced.

@OP: I can't remember anything about their aging, but the greater effort in making and the fact that they are not constantly thrown into battles in huge numbers would make a longer lifespan compared to SM a reasonable thing, economically. Though not everything the EoM has done has followed human reasoning
Edit: grammar

They could live for thousands of years and not be immortal.

Being super human and aging slower is one thing

Being super super human and aging incredibly slowing is the same thing

Being immortal is something totally different, as is a characteristic of things that are not truly human. Daemons are immortal, CSM elevated to Daemon Prince are immortal, DE, through sacrificing young victims are immortal. There is something inheretly evil about immortality. I think Custodes are just very very very long lived.

Custodes are probably immortal. They're different from Astartes. Custodes are like master crafter Astartes made by the Emperor himself.

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm intrigued, I'd like to see a source for these outgoing forces. Last I heard, the 300 "companions" were the ONLY Custodes.

There are around 10000 custodians in existence at any one time, 300 of which (the companions) are guarding the Emperor's body inside the throne room itself.

I'll help out.

"The Emperor's Guard or Custodians are the palace guards of the Emperor, and their duty is to protect the Imperial Palace. As the Imperial Palace covers such a large area of the planet, the Custodians act as a defensive army. Only a select inner corps of three hundred, called the Companions, actually serve the Emperor as personal bodyguards."
- 2E Codex Imperialis p12

I have, however, never read about Custodes going on missions away from the Imperial Palace, that they are somehow specially created, immortal, or better as Space Marines. If that stuff has actually been printed at all, it's probably from some Black Library novel.
Which are, of course, just as valid a source as Codex fluff - but those books all exist parallel to each other rather than together, and like Crimson, I tend to prefer what the GW core studio itself has written. Novels tend to go out of their way with making things uberspecial and epic and such, and from what I'm reading here, the Custodes received the same treatment.

Mercay wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm intrigued, I'd like to see a source for these outgoing forces. Last I heard, the 300 "companions" were the ONLY Custodes.

There are around 10000 custodians in existence at any one time, 300 of which (the companions) are guarding the Emperor's body inside the throne room itself.

Like super ready, I'd like to see a source where this happens. The going away that is

Not sure about immortal, but definitely long living. Between their superior genetics and physical makeup, they could also be aided by technological "touch-ups".

With regard to SMs, they can live a lot longer thanks to the gene-seed, tech-upgrades to replace lost parts, and the effects of warp travel.

 Crimson wrote:

What stories? Black Library?

Yeah, but only pre-heresy.

Pre-heresy, Custodians would operate as agents for the Emperor, taking on special missions more suited to a few or even a single Custodian than a legion of Space Marines, and basically acted in the same way as Mass Effect's Spectres.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Yeah, but only pre-heresy.

Pre-heresy, Custodians would operate as agents for the Emperor, taking on special missions more suited to a few or even a single Custodian than a legion of Space Marines, and basically acted in the same way as Mass Effect's Spectres.

Right, of course. But last ten thousand years they have just stayed on Terra, looking pretty.

As far as I know, yeah, they haven't taken any missions outside of Terra.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence however. One would need to have a source that explicitly states they never leave Terra to prove it.

"Being immortal is something totally different, as is a characteristic of things that are not truly human"

Well, dang! Doesn' that make the one immortal and supposedly human being look quite unsettling

Custodes did go to Pluto to fight the Purge (at least, I think it was the Purge). They got pwned, though it was an Imperial victory overall.

Well, that would show they're *capable* of fighting elsewhere. It's not exactly a hint that they do it regularly, though. Pluto is part of the Terra system (or is it called Sol system? Can never remember). As such, any invaders getting that close to Earth should trigger pretty much a "OH CRAP GET BACK HERE YOU GUYS" response from just about every fighting force able to lend a hand.

It begs the question as to how they got there. Did they have their own craft, of the kind they'd use for other engagements? Or did they hop on Navy craft?