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Hormagaunts dying too quickly is not really a problem. They're not meant to be durable. They're meant to be numerous. Their biggest problem is that they get get shot up in your opponent's shooting phase, get shot up when they assault, and then fight at I1 because they don't have grenades.

Raveners are doubly problematic in that they get shot up like Hormgaunts and go last in combat. They also dilly-dally for an entire round after exposing themselves from deep strike. Sure they have guns, but that's not why you take Raveners. Raveners are not meant to be the sacrificial units Hormagaunts are. Raveners' role is to be a terrifying shock troop that shots up out of nowhere. They're pretty much a similar role to that of a Lictor in squad form.

Much of the Tyranids' problems can be alleviated by giving them the ability to strike at initiative when assaulting through cover. Right now, the entire army has pretty much nothing aside from being a MC.

 Absolutionis wrote:
Hormagaunts dying too quickly is not really a problem. They're not meant to be durable. They're meant to be numerous. Their biggest problem is that they get get shot up in your opponent's shooting phase, get shot up when they assault, and then fight at I1 because they don't have grenades.

Raveners are doubly problematic in that they get shot up like Hormgaunts and go last in combat. They also dilly-dally for an entire round after exposing themselves from deep strike. Sure they have guns, but that's not why you take Raveners. Raveners are not meant to be the sacrificial units Hormagaunts are. Raveners' role is to be a terrifying shock troop that shots up out of nowhere. They're pretty much a similar role to that of a Lictor in squad form.

Much of the Tyranids' problems can be alleviated by giving them the ability to strike at initiative when assaulting through cover. Right now, the entire army has pretty much nothing aside from being a MC.

See, I've never had the issue assaulting through cover. Like...ever. The game is now so objective based that I never run into opponents who just camp in cover all day long enticing me to assault into it. So "biggest problem" is a bit of a stretch. Good players are often moving around the board enough that I can time assaults to hit the bulk of units outside of cover.

Hormagaunts and Raveners are super expensive for what they offer (with appropriate upgrades), and are about a turn too slow. I don't think every Tyranid unit should get faster, but those two in particular, along with the Lictor, should have an extra move, and/or the ability to assault after Deep Strike. Genestealers went from one of the few bright spots in 5th (Outflank was amazing!), to absolutely terrible in 6th. Too expensive to hope to make it up the field using cover (and that's a giant waste of resources while they aren't in combat), and can't utilize Outflank like they used to. They just pop up and die.

If GW continues their recent trend, the Tyranids will get something unique, and not just something straight out of the BRB, to compensate for their major weaknesses right now.

 brassangel wrote:
Like Eldar received the ability to hop in, shoot, and hop out again, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyranids got something that lets many of them assault after running. That's really the only change that makes Tyranids viable without breaking them. Hormagaunts and Raveners are the epitome of everything most people assume Tyranids should be, but those are arguably some of their least effective units. They just die too quickly, and not enough of them are left by the time they finally reach combat.

Assault after running or shooting would definitely fit their playstyle, either using guns to soften up a target before attacking or simply drowning the enemy in bodies in a relentless attack.

They could just make them Beasts instead of Infantry...

 Micky wrote:
They could just make them Beasts instead of Infantry...

you mean like they used to be?

That's just Hormagaunts. I was referring to brassangels idea of an army wide rule like Battle Focus for Eldar.

 -Loki- wrote:

 brassangel wrote:
Like Eldar received the ability to hop in, shoot, and hop out again, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyranids got something that lets many of them assault after running. That's really the only change that makes Tyranids viable without breaking them. Hormagaunts and Raveners are the epitome of everything most people assume Tyranids should be, but those are arguably some of their least effective units. They just die too quickly, and not enough of them are left by the time they finally reach combat.

Assault after running or shooting would definitely fit their playstyle, either using guns to soften up a target before attacking or simply drowning the enemy in bodies in a relentless attack.

Right? I could see GW taking that risk. The power level in 6th is pretty high, but everyone is getting something to avoid the creep factor. Who knew writing them all simultaneously would have that effect?

Right now the only way they truly swarm an enemy is through Tervigon spam, but even that's easily disrupted. Tyranids should be the kings of MC overload, but they should have the option to play a viable swarm as well. The 6th edition books have all presented different, but equally viable list-building options, and I expect that to continue.

 Symbio Joe wrote:
What? Did the Hiveguard not sell enough so it needs skyfire?
I wish upon a star that this codex brings back all the biomorphs the prior one made disappaer.

No Tyranids just need some anti-air unit capability that isn't just winged tyrants and Hiveguard make sense for that role given the weapons they have.

I am also liking the thought of them getting extra FoC slots to counter balance the lack of allies if it is true. That was the one thing I found unfair about them not having allies available.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Symbio Joe wrote:
What? Did the Hiveguard not sell enough so it needs skyfire?
I wish upon a star that this codex brings back all the biomorphs the prior one made disappaer.

No Tyranids just need some anti-air unit capability that isn't just winged tyrants and Hiveguard make sense for that role given the weapons they have.

Skriker

It's wish-listing and I doubt it will happen, but I always thought that the gargoyles should have some anti-air capability; some kind of engine clogging/grappling ability where Xd6 number of gargoyles die but they crash the flyer or ground a flying monstrous creature. It would be in line with the fluff and would make a swarm army more viable. It would also be better than making a model that is already overrepresented even more ubiquitous.

 Unix wrote:
It's wish-listing and I doubt it will happen, but I always thought that the gargoyles should have some anti-air capability; some kind of engine clogging/grappling ability where Xd6 number of gargoyles die but they crash the flyer or ground a flying monstrous creature. It would be in line with the fluff and would make a swarm army more viable. It would also be better than making a model that is already overrepresented even more ubiquitous.

That is actually a pretty cool idea. Watch as necron flyer spam goes down to being swarmed by dozens of gargoyles. Hahahahahaha!

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Unix wrote:
It's wish-listing and I doubt it will happen, but I always thought that the gargoyles should have some anti-air capability; some kind of engine clogging/grappling ability where Xd6 number of gargoyles die but they crash the flyer or ground a flying monstrous creature. It would be in line with the fluff and would make a swarm army more viable. It would also be better than making a model that is already overrepresented even more ubiquitous.

That is actually a pretty cool idea. Watch as necron flyer spam goes down to being swarmed by dozens of gargoyles. Hahahahahaha!

Skriker

Funny you mention that...

http://www.wobblymodelsyndrome.com/uploads/3/3/4/2/3342427/6893834_orig.jpg

Credit to WMS

Though in all honesty, I would love to be able to sacrifice gargoyles to bring down a flyer. Or better yet, bring back the old aa rules for meiotic spores. Pretty much they would move 2d6 towards any flier that moved in their turn. If it collided, it caused a number s5 + 2d6 hits

Altered FOC to help counter the lack of Allies. 3 HQ, 4 Elite, 6 Troop, 4 Fast, 4Heavy. Purchasing the 3rd HQ choice unlocks the extra Elite, Fast, and Heavy slots.

Wow, very interesting indeed.

The lack of grenades is something people like to complain about, but isn't a crippling thing in reality.

Someone hit on it earlier...what this book really needs to support is legitimate horde play that doesn't involve Tervigons pooping out babies. We haven't had that since 3rd edition, and it's arguably THE iconic look for Tyranids. (I actually had success in 4th with semi-zilla -- 5 or 6 MCs plus 100 gribblies -- but realistically that edition was all about full nidzilla.)

 gorgon wrote:
The lack of grenades is something people like to complain about, but isn't a crippling thing in reality.

Someone hit on it earlier...what this book really needs to support is legitimate horde play that doesn't involve Tervigons pooping out babies. We haven't had that since 3rd edition, and it's arguably THE iconic look for Tyranids. (I actually had success in 4th with semi-zilla -- 5 or 6 MCs plus 100 gribblies -- but realistically that edition was all about full nidzilla.)

Sad when IG out number Nids. I think Nids should be able to out number Orks even. Tyranids are 3rd on the list when it comes to horde armies sadly.

I agree wholeheartedly. Why can IG have 50 man units and 'Nids can't?!

Biovores are also a potential AA unit, just give them a sky-spore of some sort.

Davor wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
The lack of grenades is something people like to complain about, but isn't a crippling thing in reality.

Someone hit on it earlier...what this book really needs to support is legitimate horde play that doesn't involve Tervigons pooping out babies. We haven't had that since 3rd edition, and it's arguably THE iconic look for Tyranids. (I actually had success in 4th with semi-zilla -- 5 or 6 MCs plus 100 gribblies -- but realistically that edition was all about full nidzilla.)

Sad when IG out number Nids. I think Nids should be able to out number Orks even. Tyranids are 3rd on the list when it comes to horde armies sadly.

You need more Gargoyles. They're (still) a fantastic unit. And nothing is broken with respect to huge numbers of 'gants - your choice of expensive devourer ones or dirt cheap fleshborers. But Tervigons do make them better, even without creating any new 'gants on their own. (Hormagaunts are, as previously noted, about 2 pts too expensive when upgraded.)

What 6e took away was any semblance of successful genestealer usage. It worked in 5e, through using large units with a marjority in 4+ cover at all times, with 4+ FNP from Catalyst thrown on top. Given the current rules for cover, it's much, much harder to keep expensive 'stealers alive - you need either Invisibility (about 50/50 on the one psyker who can even get it), or Telekine Dome, and even then FNP isn't what it used to be.

Why can't tyranids get some bio upgrade, like "spits acid" (counts as having grenades)? I also agree that, with all the fluff making tyranids seem like a huge uncountable invasion of creatures, tyranids should be the ONE army that outnumbers everyone... Need that impending doom, Aliens, vibe.... Love to have 200ish minis in a 2k army!

Flesh Hooks use to count as assault grenades in 3rd and 4th edition. In 4th, you could equipe Genestealers with flesh hooks for 1 pt per model; Lictors, Tyranid Warriors, and Hive Tyrants had access to flesh hooks as well as I recall.

 wyomingfox wrote:
Flesh Hooks use to count as assault grenades in 3rd and 4th edition. In 4th, you could equipe Genestealers with flesh hooks for 1 pt per model; Lictors, Tyranid Warriors, and Hive Tyrants had access to flesh hooks as well as I recall.

Flesh hooks still work that way, and are additionally a shooting weapon as well. However only lictors and death leaper get them now. Blah.

 krazynadechukr wrote:
Why can't tyranids get some bio upgrade, like "spits acid" (counts as having grenades)?

Cruddace, basically. He decided to take all of the options out of the book. Hormagaunts, Gaunts and Genestealers could take Flesh Hooks (Assault grenades). Genestealers and Gaunts could take Scuttlers (Scout). Genestealers could take Acid Maw (reroll failed wounds in first turn of combat) and Feeder Tendrils (Preferred Enemy against everyone, and give it to any unit within 2").

Just putting those sorts of options back in the book would be great. No need to resort to stat line modification, just give us back those sorts of upgrades and sanely priced base profiles.

I just want really cheap CC Tyranids (basic Hormagaunts) with upgrade options like way back (Rending Claws, Wings, Flesh Hooks, Extra Carapace, etc.)...

Also, more options to make an unique army (like an all CC one - including non-shooty gargoyles etc.).

 kendoka wrote:
Also, more options to make an unique army (like an all CC one - including non-shooty gargoyles etc.).

You can make an all CC army already, though why you'd want to lose every game is beyond me.

What Tyranids need are options to run different phases of the attack - Vanguard, Main attack, Heavy Assault, etc. Tyranids aren't just one amalgamated random lot of organisms, they attack in distinct waves. Vanguard is Genestealers and Lictors supported by faster moving Shrikes, Gargoyles and such. That's doable now, but not very viable. Main assault is very swarmy, but little in the way of monstrous creatures. Heavy assault is lots of dedicated attack monstrous creatures (Carnifexes, Trygons, Mawlocs, Tyrannofexes, Hive Tyrants, and in the case of Apocalypse, Gargantuans) and little in the way of smaller organisms.

Right now, to have any success, you can't run an army resembling any of these. Vanguard and Main assailt will be severely lacking anti tank, and heavy assault won't have enough models on the table because Tyranid MC's are horribly overpriced.

 -Loki- wrote:

 kendoka wrote:
Also, more options to make an unique army (like an all CC one - including non-shooty gargoyles etc.).

You can make an all CC army already, though why you'd want to lose every game is beyond me.

I think the "lose every game" part is what kendoka was getting at.

Flesh Hooks use to count as assault grenades in 3rd and 4th edition. In 4th, you could equipe Genestealers with flesh hooks for 1 pt per model; Lictors, Tyranid Warriors, and Hive Tyrants had access to flesh hooks as well as I recall.

Why even make it 1pt per model? A lot of other armies get AGs as standard. 40 man Hormy brood + FH= an extra 40pts for that brood? Meh.
Just make it standard - army-wide. We're talking about the most HTH orientated army in the Galaxy (barring maybe Orks).
These "additional options" for X or Y should be standard according to fluff and within game balance (sure one cant break the meta but fleet or some sort of run/assault option should be standard etc etc. etc).

What Tyranids need are options to run different phases of the attack

Yes and no Loki, other armies can do that, even SMs, Heavy pounding T1/2 with Vinds/HWTs etc, main attack via Rhinos/Pods etc, then assault. Its kind of boring.

What Nids really need is some sort of cheap and viable short range shooting coupled with a "without number" idea.
German games Day diorama captures the spirit perfectly.
A billion gaunts over running your lines but backed up with some decent Heavies if needed.
Nids worked in 5th, just need a big rework for 6th.

 Ratius wrote:
What Nids really need is some sort of cheap and viable short range shooting coupled with a "without number" idea.
German games Day diorama captures the spirit perfectly.
A billion gaunts over running your lines but backed up with some decent Heavies if needed.

Do you have a pic at all? I'd love to see this. o.o

Meddy wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

What Nids really need is some sort of cheap and viable short range shooting coupled with a "without number" idea.
German games Day diorama captures the spirit perfectly.
A billion gaunts over running your lines but backed up with some decent Heavies if needed.

Do you have a pic at all? I'd love to see this. o.o

More pictures here.

"Without Number" definitely needs to be a defining feature.

 Kanluwen wrote:


More pictures here.
"Without Number" definitely needs to be a defining feature.

That, that right there. That's why nids are my first and only 40k love. *goes beady-eyed*

Lame GW pics as per usual (not aimed at you Kan, just in general). Real deal:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/546521.page