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 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

I can see them getting an armour boost to 4+ and keep the points the same.

Maybe even give them Stealth and Shrouded over this or any armour.

I'd pay 14pts per guy if they get Stealth and Shrouding.

Heck, even if the Broodlord gives it to them as one of his "powers" or abilities I'd be happy.

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

They are supposed to get shot the pieces. The armor save is there so they at least get a shot to save in CC (which is also close to useless because they often shred whatever they are in CC with).

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Genestealer cults do not need their own army. They don't need to be represented in 40k in any meaningful way, simply due to the fact that there isn't much to them. You've got some genestealers, some civilian-y guys, and some hybrids, who may as well be civilian-y guys for the purpose of rules. They don't have large enough variety of units or vehicles or characters that could actually make up a codex.

That has zero bearing on the matter. Genestealer Cults have had full army lists in the past. The IG vehicles alone could fill pages.

I think the issue is almost certainly about needing a real codex as I stated, and that there's just not room for that right now.

 brassangel wrote:
They are supposed to get shot the pieces. The armor save is there so they at least get a shot to save in CC (which is also close to useless because they often shred whatever they are in CC with).

If they're supposed to get shot to pieces then they don't need to cost as much as/more than a Space Marine.

 brassangel wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

They are supposed to get shot the pieces. The armor save is there so they at least get a shot to save in CC (which is also close to useless because they often shred whatever they are in CC with).

Stealers are not Gaunts dude.

Gaunts are the ones that should be getting shot to pieces as cannon fodder, not the "shock troops" of the Tyranid army.

 gorgon wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Genestealer cults do not need their own army. They don't need to be represented in 40k in any meaningful way, simply due to the fact that there isn't much to them. You've got some genestealers, some civilian-y guys, and some hybrids, who may as well be civilian-y guys for the purpose of rules. They don't have large enough variety of units or vehicles or characters that could actually make up a codex.

That has zero bearing on the matter. Genestealer Cults have had full army lists in the past. The IG vehicles alone could fill pages.

I think the issue is almost certainly about needing a real codex as I stated, and that there's just not room for that right now.

They've had army lists in the past, but not made up of mostly Tyranids things. The Supplements seem to be trending away from including unit entries that have unique models to themselves (so as to avoid convincing customers that they only way to play said models is by purchasing an otherwise unnecessary Supplement). I promise you there won't be any Cult entries in the codex proper (and there shouldn't be).

If they are made up of IG stuff...then leave it there and be creative with Primaris Psykers, and whatnot. Perhaps as an IG Supplement?

Otherwise, there isn't enough demand for it, and it really doesn't feel Tyranid-y. It was a bad direction to go anyway (yay for weaker IG mutants...) and I'd be fine with GW forgetting they ever existed. Or save them for a Necromunda or Inquisition specialist game.

Puscifer wrote:

 brassangel wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

They are supposed to get shot the pieces. The armor save is there so they at least get a shot to save in CC (which is also close to useless because they often shred whatever they are in CC with).

Stealers are not Gaunts dude.

Gaunts are the ones that should be getting shot to pieces as cannon fodder, not the "shock troops" of the Tyranid army.

Any Tyranids caught in the open should pretty much get shot to pieces. That's the point. Don't give Genestealers a better armor save when they are made of the same sinewy tissue as Gaunts. That would just be terrible, unimaginative rules design. Instead, give them a safer delivery system (e.g. assault the turn they arrive, or make them more difficult to shoot at the turn the arrive).

 gorgon wrote:

I don't think the new book will be OP, not because 6th edition codicies are all balanced (they aren't), but because Tyranids' place in the fluff is that of a force of nature, or more properly nature gone out of control. They're the mindless adversary or monster -- but not really a proper villain -- that gets shot up cinematically by the heroes and villains. They aren't like other xenos, as expressed in their lack of allies. Tau and Eldar are xenos, but still main actors in the story, if that makes sense. Tyranids are almost part of the setting.

Tell that to the Iron Warriors of Forgefane, the Eldar of Malan'tai, the Titan Legions of Gryphonne 4 and Megyre, the Tempestus Segmentum in general. Great Sky Mother dammit; every guy in fluff that says "They're mindless" practically gets eaten. The Tyranids place in fluff is one of an almost unstoppable force, an army that can't be bested in the same way twice. Yeah the Tyranids aren't actors, they are what kills actors. Yeah most of their stuff is shot to pieces, but why it matters? they are endless. Space Marines have their moment of glory killing hundreds of gaunts, just to die to the thousands that take their place. The Guard gets to prove its courage vs impossible odds, and still gets eaten.

Maybe they Tyranids don't get to be OP, but don't use the excuse of fluff.

 brassangel wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

DufenDorgen wrote:
So were agreed that the red terror is obviously back in? I mean they made a fine cast model. And any thought on how much genestealers might drop in points? My friends seem to think they're great for 14pts but they're full of gak.

Compare a genestealer for 14 points against a demonette at what, 9 points? That's about the closest comparison I can come up with. Stealers are better, but not 55% better that's for sure. I'd estimate that if genestealers don't get any rules changes, they will be 10-12 points, with upgrades on top of that to drive them back up to the 14-16 range.

That other guys is right, 5 invuln means a whole lot. I would rather genestealers be a point cheaper and take away their painted on armor. 5+ armor saves are just about worthless considering everything ignores it. Losing 14 points to "Anything" hurts far more than losing 5 points to "Anything".

They are supposed to get shot the pieces. The armor save is there so they at least get a shot to save in CC (which is also close to useless because they often shred whatever they are in CC with).

Yeah I think your right, I remember in the BRB it said something about them like "We encourage players to bring genestealers to the table, use them to run directly at an enemy players marines. Remember that their purpose is to get shot to pieces, that's why they are 14pts a model, so your marine opponent can feel better about themselves, that's why they play marines anyways. And don't feel bad about removing those models, just remember that it's "Cinematic"!", I think it was forging a narrative or another chapter like it, you may wanna check it. While your at it, check yourself....Before you wreck yourself.

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't think the new book will be OP, not because 6th edition codicies are all balanced (they aren't), but because Tyranids' place in the fluff is that of a force of nature, or more properly nature gone out of control. They're the mindless adversary or monster -- but not really a proper villain -- that gets shot up cinematically by the heroes and villains. They aren't like other xenos, as expressed in their lack of allies. Tau and Eldar are xenos, but still main actors in the story, if that makes sense. Tyranids are almost part of the setting.

Tell that to the Iron Warriors of Forgefane, the Eldar of Malan'tai, the Titan Legions of Gryphonne 4 and Megyre, the Tempestus Segmentum in general. Great Sky Mother dammit; every guy in fluff that says "They're mindless" practically gets eaten. The Tyranids place in fluff is one of an almost unstoppable force, an army that can't be bested in the same way twice. Yeah the Tyranids aren't actors, they are what kills actors. Yeah most of their stuff is shot to pieces, but why it matters? they are endless. Space Marines have their moment of glory killing hundreds of gaunts, just to die to the thousands that take their place. The Guard gets to prove its courage vs impossible odds, and still gets eaten.

Maybe they Tyranids don't get to be OP, but don't use the excuse of fluff.

I'll put it more simply...Tyranids are a natural disaster for the protagonists to overcome, and not a proper villain. This makes them unlike any other army, and I think influences the designers' ideas about what a battle against Tyranids should look like (again, lots of dead bugs). Sure, lots of dead defenders also fits into that. But if we're talking about competitiveness, and I think we are if we're discussing power levels, durability is a key factor in most competitive builds across different codicies.

I love my Tyranids man, but it kinda is what it is. The army is designed to get shot up.

Remember though that Genestealers have +1 WS, T, and I compared to Daemonettes. That said, I have no doubt they'll see a points drop, maybe as low as 10 or 11 points.

 gorgon wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't think the new book will be OP, not because 6th edition codicies are all balanced (they aren't), but because Tyranids' place in the fluff is that of a force of nature, or more properly nature gone out of control. They're the mindless adversary or monster -- but not really a proper villain -- that gets shot up cinematically by the heroes and villains. They aren't like other xenos, as expressed in their lack of allies. Tau and Eldar are xenos, but still main actors in the story, if that makes sense. Tyranids are almost part of the setting.

Tell that to the Iron Warriors of Forgefane, the Eldar of Malan'tai, the Titan Legions of Gryphonne 4 and Megyre, the Tempestus Segmentum in general. Great Sky Mother dammit; every guy in fluff that says "They're mindless" practically gets eaten. The Tyranids place in fluff is one of an almost unstoppable force, an army that can't be bested in the same way twice. Yeah the Tyranids aren't actors, they are what kills actors. Yeah most of their stuff is shot to pieces, but why it matters? they are endless. Space Marines have their moment of glory killing hundreds of gaunts, just to die to the thousands that take their place. The Guard gets to prove its courage vs impossible odds, and still gets eaten.

Maybe they Tyranids don't get to be OP, but don't use the excuse of fluff.

I'll put it more simply...Tyranids are a natural disaster for the protagonists to overcome, and not a proper villain. This makes them unlike any other army, and I think influences the designers' ideas about what a battle against Tyranids should look like (again, lots of dead bugs). Sure, lots of dead defenders also fits into that. But if we're talking about competitiveness, and I think we are if we're discussing power levels, durability is a key factor in most competitive builds across different codicies.

I love my Tyranids man, but it kinda is what it is. The army is designed to get shot up.

Which can be fixed with giving very low cost to our units, and mix it with good ways to deliver them right to the opponent face.

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't think the new book will be OP, not because 6th edition codicies are all balanced (they aren't), but because Tyranids' place in the fluff is that of a force of nature, or more properly nature gone out of control. They're the mindless adversary or monster -- but not really a proper villain -- that gets shot up cinematically by the heroes and villains. They aren't like other xenos, as expressed in their lack of allies. Tau and Eldar are xenos, but still main actors in the story, if that makes sense. Tyranids are almost part of the setting.

Tell that to the Iron Warriors of Forgefane, the Eldar of Malan'tai, the Titan Legions of Gryphonne 4 and Megyre, the Tempestus Segmentum in general. Great Sky Mother dammit; every guy in fluff that says "They're mindless" practically gets eaten. The Tyranids place in fluff is one of an almost unstoppable force, an army that can't be bested in the same way twice. Yeah the Tyranids aren't actors, they are what kills actors. Yeah most of their stuff is shot to pieces, but why it matters? they are endless. Space Marines have their moment of glory killing hundreds of gaunts, just to die to the thousands that take their place. The Guard gets to prove its courage vs impossible odds, and still gets eaten.

Maybe they Tyranids don't get to be OP, but don't use the excuse of fluff.

I'll put it more simply...Tyranids are a natural disaster for the protagonists to overcome, and not a proper villain. This makes them unlike any other army, and I think influences the designers' ideas about what a battle against Tyranids should look like (again, lots of dead bugs). Sure, lots of dead defenders also fits into that. But if we're talking about competitiveness, and I think we are if we're discussing power levels, durability is a key factor in most competitive builds across different codicies.

I love my Tyranids man, but it kinda is what it is. The army is designed to get shot up.

Which can be fixed with giving very low cost to our units, and mix it with good ways to deliver them right to the opponent face.

Well said.

@gorgon: The 6th edition books are balanced against EACH OTHER though. They are all showing well (results-wise) in tournaments, and all seem to have variating and flexible builds. Some act like the rock to another's scissors, sure, but that's okay so long as it can be overcome with a little intelligent generalship, and/or can handle the rest of the field.

Late in 5th edition, you played Space Wolves, or a list designed specifically to combat Space Wolves.
Later still, you played Grey Knights, or a list designed specifically to combat Grey Knights.
Early 6th saw the same with Necrons, as no other book had been properly updated to accommodate the new rules.

That's just not the case anymore. The field is wide open. Tau and Eldar are strong, but can easily get pantsed by Daemons and CSM. Necrons are still powerful, but can be vulnerable to armies with mobility and strong psychic ability. Dark Angels have perhaps the best anti-meta load out in the game with all of their S7 AP2 access. Round and round we go.

The fewer legacy codices that remain, the more balance we've seen come to the format. No table top miniatures game has perfect balance while also offering such a variety of play styles. It'll never happen where every army is absolutely equal in all areas, unless they water it down so far as to make them all the same.

Tyranids will be a pickle to get right, as they need to be flexible with a variety of builds, but without access to allies. They need to equally die in droves and swarm the enemy, but still be able to field a practical army size within the time constraints of a tournament format.

The best move to give them durability is NOT a higher toughness or better armor save. That just doesn't fit the Tyranids. They need to have cheap units, in massive numbers, with the ability to produce more and deliver them effectively. Keep in mind this has to happen without being broken. I'm not quite sure any other 40k army presents the same challenge, as others have sergeant equivalents, transports, and lots of ranged firepower. I supposed Daemons are close, to a degree, but they get invulnerable saves and/or lots of Eternal Warrior. Tyranids need something all their own and not just a copy + paste of that army.

 brassangel wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

I don't think the new book will be OP, not because 6th edition codicies are all balanced (they aren't), but because Tyranids' place in the fluff is that of a force of nature, or more properly nature gone out of control. They're the mindless adversary or monster -- but not really a proper villain -- that gets shot up cinematically by the heroes and villains. They aren't like other xenos, as expressed in their lack of allies. Tau and Eldar are xenos, but still main actors in the story, if that makes sense. Tyranids are almost part of the setting.

Tell that to the Iron Warriors of Forgefane, the Eldar of Malan'tai, the Titan Legions of Gryphonne 4 and Megyre, the Tempestus Segmentum in general. Great Sky Mother dammit; every guy in fluff that says "They're mindless" practically gets eaten. The Tyranids place in fluff is one of an almost unstoppable force, an army that can't be bested in the same way twice. Yeah the Tyranids aren't actors, they are what kills actors. Yeah most of their stuff is shot to pieces, but why it matters? they are endless. Space Marines have their moment of glory killing hundreds of gaunts, just to die to the thousands that take their place. The Guard gets to prove its courage vs impossible odds, and still gets eaten.

Maybe they Tyranids don't get to be OP, but don't use the excuse of fluff.

I'll put it more simply...Tyranids are a natural disaster for the protagonists to overcome, and not a proper villain. This makes them unlike any other army, and I think influences the designers' ideas about what a battle against Tyranids should look like (again, lots of dead bugs). Sure, lots of dead defenders also fits into that. But if we're talking about competitiveness, and I think we are if we're discussing power levels, durability is a key factor in most competitive builds across different codicies.

I love my Tyranids man, but it kinda is what it is. The army is designed to get shot up.

Which can be fixed with giving very low cost to our units, and mix it with good ways to deliver them right to the opponent face.

Well said.

@gorgon: The 6th edition books are balanced against EACH OTHER though. They are all showing well (results-wise) in tournaments, and all seem to have variating and flexible builds. Some act like the rock to another's scissors, sure, but that's okay so long as it can be overcome with a little intelligent generalship, and/or can handle the rest of the field.

Late in 5th edition, you played Space Wolves, or a list designed specifically to combat Space Wolves.
Later still, you played Grey Knights, or a list designed specifically to combat Grey Knights.
Early 6th saw the same with Necrons, as no other book had been properly updated to accommodate the new rules.

That's just not the case anymore. The field is wide open. Tau and Eldar are strong, but can easily get pantsed by Daemons and CSM. Necrons are still powerful, but can be vulnerable to armies with mobility and strong psychic ability. Dark Angels have perhaps the best anti-meta load out in the game with all of their S7 AP2 access. Round and round we go.

The fewer legacy codices that remain, the more balance we've seen come to the format. No table top miniatures game has perfect balance while also offering such a variety of play styles. It'll never happen where every army is absolutely equal in all areas, unless they water it down so far as to make them all the same.

Tyranids will be a pickle to get right, as they need to be flexible with a variety of builds, but without access to allies. They need to equally die in droves and swarm the enemy, but still be able to field a practical army size within the time constraints of a tournament format.

The best move to give them durability is NOT a higher toughness or better armor save. That just doesn't fit the Tyranids. They need to have cheap units, in massive numbers, with the ability to produce more and deliver them effectively. Keep in mind this has to happen without being broken. I'm not quite sure any other 40k army presents the same challenge, as others have sergeant equivalents, transports, and lots of ranged firepower. I supposed Daemons are close, to a degree, but they get invulnerable saves and/or lots of Eternal Warrior. Tyranids need something all their own and not just a copy + paste of that army.

Just going to correct you in the fact that Daemons now lack Eternal Warrior.
But the rest is all true.

There is a way to make them op and fluffy.

Like the old meat grinder rules from 3rd.

When a troops choice is destroyed, put the squad on your table edge. This represents them as an unending tide of a Tyranid swarm.

It'll never happen, but that's what I'd do.

 brassangel wrote:
Well said.

@gorgon: The 6th edition books are balanced against EACH OTHER though. They are all showing well (results-wise) in tournaments, and all seem to have variating and flexible builds. Some act like the rock to another's scissors, sure, but that's okay so long as it can be overcome with a little intelligent generalship, and/or can handle the rest of the field.

Late in 5th edition, you played Space Wolves, or a list designed specifically to combat Space Wolves.
Later still, you played Grey Knights, or a list designed specifically to combat Grey Knights.
Early 6th saw the same with Necrons, as no other book had been properly updated to accommodate the new rules.

That's just not the case anymore. The field is wide open. Tau and Eldar are strong, but can easily get pantsed by Daemons and CSM. Necrons are still powerful, but can be vulnerable to armies with mobility and strong psychic ability. Dark Angels have perhaps the best anti-meta load out in the game with all of their S7 AP2 access. Round and round we go.

The fewer legacy codices that remain, the more balance we've seen come to the format. No table top miniatures game has perfect balance while also offering such a variety of play styles. It'll never happen where every army is absolutely equal in all areas, unless they water it down so far as to make them all the same.

Tyranids will be a pickle to get right, as they need to be flexible with a variety of builds, but without access to allies. They need to equally die in droves and swarm the enemy, but still be able to field a practical army size within the time constraints of a tournament format.

The best move to give them durability is NOT a higher toughness or better armor save. That just doesn't fit the Tyranids. They need to have cheap units, in massive numbers, with the ability to produce more and deliver them effectively. Keep in mind this has to happen without being broken. I'm not quite sure any other 40k army presents the same challenge, as others have sergeant equivalents, transports, and lots of ranged firepower. I supposed Daemons are close, to a degree, but they get invulnerable saves and/or lots of Eternal Warrior. Tyranids need something all their own and not just a copy + paste of that army.

Understand my perspective on balance -- I go back quite a ways, and I'm not suggesting that things have reached 2nd edition-level imbalance. It's a relatively balanced edition so far. But there are also reasons why Eldar and Tau are showing so well right now.


I actually don't think "the answer" is to make Tyranids cheaper. That may happen, but I'm not sure what it'll accomplish. What does it really solve if Termagants are 4 pts instead of 5? Does a 5 pt drop (which is significant) on Warriors make them hot and sexy?

I think the answer is to make them better...faster, harder-hitting, and yes, tougher in some areas. Medium bugs in particular have struggled for about a decade now...and lack of durability is a key reason. I've never felt that Warriors were as DOA as some people make them out to be. But then when I do field them it's usually alongside ample MCs that draw the S8+ firepower. Ultimately, Warriors aren't very good at babysitting gribbles unless they too have babysitters. Problem. As an aside, note again we're talking about a players mitigating the army's issues through MC spam. Synapse giving you trouble? MC spam. Need more guns? MC spam. "Hey, my little bugs are cheaper! Great I have some extra points to spend on MC spam!" They need to break that cycle IMO by providing more answers throughout the army list instead of relegating units to being "just cannon fodder."

Back on point, look at what people are actually fielding with Daemons...it's a blend of durability, lethality and speed. Flesh Hounds, flying MCs, Seekers, Screamerstars, etc. That's why they work in the shooty environment of 6th edition. You have the Grimoire to dole out significant durability boosts to a unit as needed, and also create unkillable units like 2++ Fatewaver and Screamerstars. You have tons of speed to close distances. You have a troops choice like Daemonettes that can lower the boom on just about anything they hit, and cheaply. You have flying MCs that can freelance, smash stuff and cause psychic mayhem. You have the Portaglyph to poop out free deck chair units that don't need a babysitter, and Horrors and Plaguebearers are some of the best objective sitters in the game -- cheap, fairly durable, and effectively fearless vs. shooting. You have across-the-board Deep Striking. Cripes, big clanking Slaaneshi Soul Grinders are faster than Tyranid MCs on foot.

Tyranids have some of these elements, but overall they're less durable, slower, and don't hit as hard. I'm not sure that a visit from the points drop fairy is the best way to solve these issues. Army rules like the rumored run-assault ability would be a start. I think Warriors, Shrikes and Lictors (among others) could use a bonafide overhaul. Trygon tunnels that genuinely work and improved Mawlocs will also help bust up 6th ed gunlines, although we can also expect Ymgarls to lose their ability to charge after arrival. Improving certain ranged weapons would also be an incremental improvement.

I guess a much less long-winded response is to say that I believe the army needs some genuine change in areas and not just points decreases for the status quo. Again, I'm sure that it'll be a solid enough book. But will they get hot and sexy enough to be considered OP? The only 6th ed. codex that got that kind of overhaul was Daemons. The rest were mostly tweaks of their 4th/5th edition books.

Puscifer wrote:
There is a way to make them op and fluffy.

Like the old meat grinder rules from 3rd.

When a troops choice is destroyed, put the squad on your table edge. This represents them as an unending tide of a Tyranid swarm.

It'll never happen, but that's what I'd do.

The termagants could buy that rule in 4th ed, although they entered like reserves...
Give them back that rule, and mix it with the Trygon's tunnel rule. No OP at all .

 gorgon wrote:

 brassangel wrote:
Well said.

@gorgon: The 6th edition books are balanced against EACH OTHER though. They are all showing well (results-wise) in tournaments, and all seem to have variating and flexible builds. Some act like the rock to another's scissors, sure, but that's okay so long as it can be overcome with a little intelligent generalship, and/or can handle the rest of the field.

Late in 5th edition, you played Space Wolves, or a list designed specifically to combat Space Wolves.
Later still, you played Grey Knights, or a list designed specifically to combat Grey Knights.
Early 6th saw the same with Necrons, as no other book had been properly updated to accommodate the new rules.

That's just not the case anymore. The field is wide open. Tau and Eldar are strong, but can easily get pantsed by Daemons and CSM. Necrons are still powerful, but can be vulnerable to armies with mobility and strong psychic ability. Dark Angels have perhaps the best anti-meta load out in the game with all of their S7 AP2 access. Round and round we go.

The fewer legacy codices that remain, the more balance we've seen come to the format. No table top miniatures game has perfect balance while also offering such a variety of play styles. It'll never happen where every army is absolutely equal in all areas, unless they water it down so far as to make them all the same.

Tyranids will be a pickle to get right, as they need to be flexible with a variety of builds, but without access to allies. They need to equally die in droves and swarm the enemy, but still be able to field a practical army size within the time constraints of a tournament format.

The best move to give them durability is NOT a higher toughness or better armor save. That just doesn't fit the Tyranids. They need to have cheap units, in massive numbers, with the ability to produce more and deliver them effectively. Keep in mind this has to happen without being broken. I'm not quite sure any other 40k army presents the same challenge, as others have sergeant equivalents, transports, and lots of ranged firepower. I supposed Daemons are close, to a degree, but they get invulnerable saves and/or lots of Eternal Warrior. Tyranids need something all their own and not just a copy + paste of that army.

Understand my perspective on balance -- I go back quite a ways, and I'm not suggesting that things have reached 2nd edition-level imbalance. It's a relatively balanced edition so far. But there are also reasons why Eldar and Tau are showing so well right now.


I actually don't think "the answer" is to make Tyranids cheaper. That may happen, but I'm not sure what it'll accomplish. What does it really solve if Termagants are 4 pts instead of 5? Does a 5 pt drop (which is significant) on Warriors make them hot and sexy?

I think the answer is to make them better...faster, harder-hitting, and yes, tougher in some areas. Medium bugs in particular have struggled for about a decade now...and lack of durability is a key reason. I've never felt that Warriors were as DOA as some people make them out to be. But then when I do field them it's usually alongside ample MCs that draw the S8+ firepower. Ultimately, Warriors aren't very good at babysitting gribbles unless they too have babysitters. Problem. As an aside, note again we're talking about a players mitigating the army's issues through MC spam. Synapse giving you trouble? MC spam. Need more guns? MC spam. "Hey, my little bugs are cheaper! Great I have some extra points to spend on MC spam!" They need to break that cycle IMO by providing more answers throughout the army list instead of relegating units to being "just cannon fodder."

Back on point, look at what people are actually fielding with Daemons...it's a blend of durability, lethality and speed. Flesh Hounds, flying MCs, Seekers, Screamerstars, etc. That's why they work in the shooty environment of 6th edition. You have the Grimoire to dole out significant durability boosts to a unit as needed, and also create unkillable units like 2++ Fatewaver and Screamerstars. You have tons of speed to close distances. You have a troops choice like Daemonettes that can lower the boom on just about anything they hit, and cheaply. You have flying MCs that can freelance, smash stuff and cause psychic mayhem. You have the Portaglyph to poop out free deck chair units that don't need a babysitter, and Horrors and Plaguebearers are some of the best objective sitters in the game -- cheap, fairly durable, and effectively fearless vs. shooting. You have across-the-board Deep Striking. Cripes, big clanking Slaaneshi Soul Grinders are faster than Tyranid MCs on foot.

Tyranids have some of these elements, but overall they're less durable, slower, and don't hit as hard. I'm not sure that a visit from the points drop fairy is the best way to solve these issues. Army rules like the rumored run-assault ability would be a start. I think Warriors, Shrikes and Lictors (among others) could use a bonafide overhaul. Trygon tunnels that genuinely work and improved Mawlocs will also help bust up 6th ed gunlines, although we can also expect Ymgarls to lose their ability to charge after arrival. Improving certain ranged weapons would also be an incremental improvement.

I guess a much less long-winded response is to say that I believe the army needs some genuine change in areas and not just points decreases for the status quo. Again, I'm sure that it'll be a solid enough book. But will they get hot and sexy enough to be considered OP? The only 6th ed. codex that got that kind of overhaul was Daemons. The rest were mostly tweaks of their 4th/5th edition books.

Change back the Hormagaunts to beast, give anti-double-strength-ID back to synapse. Fix Harpies, fix VCs, fix anything that has "Fex" on its name, give torrent to the Pirovores, give the first turn drop rule to the Mycetic Spores, add new interesting rules like the ones in the rumors, shake everything together and serve it with a little of FUN.

 Tyran wrote:
give the first turn drop rule to the Mycetic Spores

Please no. I don't want to hear the cries after I drop DoM on turn 1.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
give the first turn drop rule to the Mycetic Spores

Please no. I don't want to hear the cries after I drop DoM on turn 1.

Doom is rumored to be extremely modified in the next codex. And I want to collect tears.
The first turn rule is to have back the all reserve option.

My 5th edition all-reserve Tyranid army did decently well once I got the hang of it. And it was a lot of fun to play. Definitely much different than the usual "you sit over there, I move as fast as I can that way" Tyranid dynamic. Grey Knights' arrival on the scene was the big nail in that coffin.

It'd be nice if Tyranids were the rock to Tau/Eldar gunlines' scissors. But then I'm not sure if they'd give Tyranids a bunch of trump cards so soon after giving Tau all those options to protect their gunlines like ample Interceptor options, Supporting Fire, etc.

 gorgon wrote:
My 5th edition all-reserve Tyranid army did decently well once I got the hang of it. And it was a lot of fun to play. Definitely much different than the usual "you sit over there, I move as fast as I can that way" Tyranid dynamic. Grey Knights' arrival on the scene was the big nail in that coffin.

It'd be nice if Tyranids were the rock to Tau/Eldar gunlines' scissors. But then I'm not sure if they'd give Tyranids a bunch of trump cards so soon after giving Tau all those options to protect their gunlines like ample Interceptor options, Supporting Fire, etc.

On another note, do we know who is writing the Codex? If Ward or Vetock have a hand on it then we might see a lot of "trump cards".

It was rumored really early on that Ward would be writing it, but that was months ago but I think the rumors went that he'd be writing a lot of the 6th ed codecs, and so far he hasn't written any.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
It was rumored really early on that Ward would be writing it, but that was months ago and I think he was rumored to be writing all of them, and so far he hasn't written an true 6th edition codecs.

I actually believe that it may be Ward, the references to the Tyranids in the Necron Codex makes me think that he would like to write it.

I'd heard he'd wanted to write the 5th ed one, but Cruddace got it instead.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
I'd heard he'd wanted to write the 5th ed one, but Cruddace got it instead.

Cruddace

I'd like it to be Ward, but he wrote the Dark Elf book.

Anyone but Cruddance at this point.

Kelly might do a good job, but he's written three codexes already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blast... my 2000th post on Dakka and I praised Ward.

Someone please send the Inquisitor.

 Tyran wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
I'd heard he'd wanted to write the 5th ed one, but Cruddace got it instead.

Cruddace

QFT

I really like the SM codex, but he didn't make that by himself, so it doesn't really count.

Cruddace did alright with gaurd and WOC

 ferret61 wrote:
Cruddace did alright with gaurd and WOC

He is alright with human armies, just keep him a kilometer away from xenos.