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This is just a minor commentary on things I've seen in the DA codex and after playing it since It has come out these are a few things I've seen that I'd wish was different. These things aren't intended to be gamebreaking cheese. Consider it wishlisting if you'd like

1: Change the Blacksword Missiles on the Nephilum to Str 8.
2: Increase the range of the Plasma Cannon Battery for the Vengeance to 36"
3: increase the armor on the Vengence and Darkshroud to 11/11/10 to make it harder to glace them to death
4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

Ralis wrote:
1: Change the Blacksword Missiles on the Nephilum to Str 8.

This would make them an effective AA option, though I would worry they'd be a bit too similar to a Stormraven with this change.

2: Increase the range of the Plasma Cannon Battery for the Vengeance to 36"

Not really needed, the Vengeance is a fast skimmer - if you let it stay that far away with a plasma cannon, it's too safe *and* powerful. This would make it cost more. Right now there's a tradeoff in its survivability.

3: increase the armor on the Vengence and Darkshroud to 11/11/10 to make it harder to glace them to death

Again, this would only make them cost more - and there's negligible difference between AV10 and AV11 for anything designed to hunt armour anyway. This won't help a jot against autocannons and the like. Not in favour of this.

4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

A Rhino chassis option would be good, but not the Whirlwind, that's already got its designated function and in fluff terms it's about as far removed from AA as you can get. You'd be wanting a new tank instead. Like... say... a Hunter or Stalker?

The problem with the vengeance and the darkshroud is that they are already too much to begin with, along with weak armour.

I honestly can't disagree with any of the points, except the last one. Ally in Space Marines and use one of their new AA tanks. Paint up the allied detachment like Dark Angels if you really want.

I agree with pretty much everything except your last point. Dark Angels should of had the Mortis Dreadnought in the codex and it should of been their AA. It would of been awesome.

 Super Ready wrote:

Ralis wrote:
1: Change the Blacksword Missiles on the Nephilum to Str 8.

This would make them an effective AA option, though I would worry they'd be a bit too similar to a Stormraven with this change.

2: Increase the range of the Plasma Cannon Battery for the Vengeance to 36"

Not really needed, the Vengeance is a fast skimmer - if you let it stay that far away with a plasma cannon, it's too safe *and* powerful. This would make it cost more. Right now there's a tradeoff in its survivability.

3: increase the armor on the Vengence and Darkshroud to 11/11/10 to make it harder to glace them to death

Again, this would only make them cost more - and there's negligible difference between AV10 and AV11 for anything designed to hunt armour anyway. This won't help a jot against autocannons and the like. Not in favour of this.

4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

A Rhino chassis option would be good, but not the Whirlwind, that's already got its designated function and in fluff terms it's about as far removed from AA as you can get. You'd be wanting a new tank instead. Like... say... a Hunter or Stalker?

Oh I fully admit that there should be some points adjustments with some of these options. And I can see the point with the increased range on the Vengeance. The idea with increasing the armor value isn't to protect it from tank hunter, but to make it harder for it to be glanced to death. Perhaps increase the armor without increasing the range of the plasma storm battery?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Very Superstitious wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything except your last point. Dark Angels should of had the Mortis Dreadnought in the codex and it should of been their AA. It would of been awesome.

If you check the codex, You can equip a dreadnought with 2 twin linked autocannons.

 Very Superstitious wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything except your last point. Dark Angels should of had the Mortis Dreadnought in the codex and it should of been their AA. It would of been awesome.

That would have been awesome as hell if it had made it into the codex.

There's a lot of small tweaks that would really change the dex.

Make termie/bike librarians and chaplains unlock termie/bike troops would be the best, IMO.

Niphlims with stronger missiles as outflank would make them the interceptor they were supposed to be.

Mortis was a serious missed opportunity.

The Vengeance is totally outclassed by the vindicator. Make it 36" range and outflank. I'd pay 150pts for that no problem.

Does anyone think GW will ever have some sort of "Beta" or gamer input to their books? None of the ideas thrown around for DA would make them OP, just more balanced and more fun.

You can always "house rules" these with your friends. If you are playing pick up games with strangers though, I can see the problem though.

 Super Ready wrote:

4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

A Rhino chassis option would be good, but not the Whirlwind, that's already got its designated function and in fluff terms it's about as far removed from AA as you can get. You'd be wanting a new tank instead. Like... say... a Hunter or Stalker?

The Whirlwind Hyperios called.

It wants you to remember that it exists.

How about point decreases for Deathwing?

The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

I was convinced the Mortis was going to be included myself.

We've been experimenting with new rules for the Nephilim missiles.

It seems at some point in the rules development they had the blast rule (the missile lock entry being left in mistakenly).

It appears someone noticed that wouldn't allow it to fire at aircraft and since it was a "jetfighter" they removed it.

This ended up leaving it with nearly useless missiles.

Our new profile:

two firing modes:
1) Heavy 1 Str 7 AP4
2) Heavy 1 Blast Str 6 Ap4 using the Missile lock rule they were going to give it.

It still seems a bit expensive for what it is but this makes it a bit more threatening to flyers and the side armor of vehicles while effectively targeting infantry if needed.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
How about point decreases for Deathwing?

The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

I don't recall Grey Knight Terminators being fearless, Much less being able to automatically deepstrike in on turn 1 or 2, Much less having twin-link that turn. And Split fire. I'm pretty sure the points increase is deserved.

Ralis wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
How about point decreases for Deathwing?

The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

I don't recall Grey Knight Terminators being fearless, Much less being able to automatically deepstrike in on turn 1 or 2, Much less having twin-link that turn. And Split fire. I'm pretty sure the points increase is deserved.

Sure, you can DS them in on Turn 1. Then you split fire and twin link some rather pathetic weapons and probably kill nothing, only to get blown away by a single Plasma Cannon shot. Oh, you're fearless, so whatever is left of the unit gets to hang around to get assaulted. Nice!

Well there is an alternative - you can pay 49 points for a WS4 Joe Douchebag with a TH/SS. Wait, you mean he doesn't benefit at all from most of the rules you listed above? That's interesting. Oh, and he only costs 6 points less than a Paladin, who is a WS5 Psyker with a force weapon.

There is literally nothing that Deathwing Terminators are good at. They aren't good for killing enemy tanks because the hottest weapon they can get fires 2 Krak Missiles. They aren't good for killing enemy light infantry because they don't put out enough fire. They aren't very good at killing Marines, because if they're properly spaced even a Plasma Cannon will only drop one. Finally, in order to take them as troops, you need to take an overcosted HQ with crappy weapons and a garbage Warlord Trait (Belial), or Azrael who doesn't fit into any DA list that lacks allies. Tell me more about how DWT are appropriately costed.

Pretty aggressive, but I 100% agree. DW took it hard. Wasn't it obvious in play testing?

Ralis wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
How about point decreases for Deathwing?

The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

I don't recall Grey Knight Terminators being fearless

Yeah, they just get ATSKNF, which is much, much better.

Let DA take Sternguard and Stormtalons.

 sing your life wrote:
Let DA take Sternguard and Stormtalons.

We don't just want things from C:SM. we want our "equivalents" to be worth taking on the tabletop. The Niphlim is sooo much better looking than the Stormtalon, but it's terrible in comparison.

Can I please please please borrow your dakka banner?

Yours truly, Ultramarines.

Str. 7 for the blacksword missiles, an AP value for the rift cannon, and a mortis dreadnought (sounds cool). Other than tweaks to the flyers and AA, I think the book is pretty good.

Although I also don't like the drawback for stubborn especially since the new space marine chapter traits dropped and their abilities are even better with apparently no drawbacks.

Although I like the looks on peoples' faces when that dakka banner is in use. It is full of win.

Mortis dread: no ladies and gents this is NOT in the codex, a mortis dread has a choice of 2 twin heavy bolters, lascannon, missile launchers, autocannons.
Put it in the book gw, missed opportunity.

Darkshroud: well worth it's 80pts, up it to 11/11/10 and make it 90

Vengeance: ok what happened here, 140 pts is stupid for a vehicle that on average will kill itself every game, make it 11/11/10, OR 3 small blasts OR give it scout and drop its points to 100 OR immune to gets hot. One of these things would help it np end.

Nephilim: missiles to be str8 so it can actually hurt imperial flyers, vector dancer and losses a hp

Ralis wrote:
4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

Forge World already did it.

 Formosa wrote:
Mortis dread

And this one too

I agree with most of what has been mentioned here. It's sad, but not unexpected. DA has and always will be a test bed codex/overshadowed by Vanilla.

Just take a look at all the rumors that are surfacing for the new book. It seems that all of the 'cheaper' units are going to make it to the book.

-Smurfs get rerolls to tactical squads with one Chapter Trait (better than the Bolter Banner in my opinion since you aren't restricted to being with 12" of a single model that can be sniped out).

-All of our 'unique' models are more or less gak (Deathwing Knights are OK- that's about it).

-SM bikers are rumored to be 22 points. So basically we pay 5 points for Hit and Run, which admittedly is good- we just can't unlock these guys as troops for as cheap as Vanilla can.

-Everything mentioned about Deathwing is 100% true. Terminators in general are bad in this edition, and if you want to try to keep them alive via Stormshields you are paying 49 points for a model that does not benefit in any way from the extra rules you are paying for, save the DW assault.

Our book is just not very good, unfortunately. I see a lot of people posting about how DA can bring good builds, and they can.. but the majority of the lists contain vanilla units, which the vanilla book will be able to do as well, and likely more effectively via Chapter Tactics.

Oh well.. I always have BT to fall on. Wait.... nevermind. They got screwed too.

Green/Black smurfs it is I guess. Thanks GW

 Mezmerro wrote:

Ralis wrote:
4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

Forge World already did it.

 Formosa wrote:
Mortis dread

And this one too

Forgeworld (stupidly) isn't allowed everywhere. So put the dark Angel mortis dread in the dark Angel book, not much to ask, especially as sm are now getting a plastic "hunter"

XenosTerminus wrote:

-Smurfs get rerolls to tactical squads with one Chapter Trait (better than the Bolter Banner in my opinion since you aren't restricted to being with 12" of a single model that can be sniped out).

-All of our 'unique' models are more or less gak (Deathwing Knights are OK- that's about it).

-SM bikers are rumored to be 22 points. So basically we pay 5 points for Hit and Run, which admittedly is good- we just can't unlock these guys as troops for as cheap as Vanilla can.

-Everything mentioned about Deathwing is 100% true. Terminators in general are bad in this edition, and if you want to try to keep them alive via Stormshields you are paying 49 points for a model that does not benefit in any way from the extra rules you are paying for, save the DW assault.

Our book is just not very good, unfortunately. I see a lot of people posting about how DA can bring good builds, and they can.. but the majority of the lists contain vanilla units, which the vanilla book will be able to do as well, and likely more effectively via Chapter Tactics.

What smurfs get is just rumors. Dont complain about them until the book is actually in hand.

Black and DW knights are fine. CSM get the heldrake and nothing. This is GW's new strat, making 4 new units but only one that is good.

Ravenwing have skilled rider, which allows them to ignore difficult terrain and get +1 to their cover save right?

Deathwing get PE CSM, Fearless(which is useful on combat units) 49 points for a TH/SS terminator isnt bad when BA pay 45 and C:SM probably will too.
I do agree though, adding fearless to an already stubborn unit is pretty bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:

Ralis wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
How about point decreases for Deathwing?
The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

I don't recall Grey Knight Terminators being fearless

Yeah, they just get ATSKNF, which is much, much better.

ATSKNF being too good is a problem with the game, not the DA codex. Everything with ATSKNF is slightly(to grossly) undercosted while things with fearless are often overcosted


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
How about point decreases for Deathwing?
The fact that they're more expensive than Grey Knight Terminators is absolutely obscene.

GK terminators that have an Str4 AP3 force sword? Rather than a str8 ap2 fist or hammer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:


Does anyone think GW will ever have some sort of "Beta" or gamer input to their books? None of the ideas thrown around for DA would make them OP, just more balanced and more fun.

DA were the beta for C:SM, which is better than CSM which were just a drunken pile of crap

Only RW black knights have SR besides Samm and the RWCS.

Ralis wrote:
This is just a minor commentary on things I've seen in the DA codex and after playing it since It has come out these are a few things I've seen that I'd wish was different. These things aren't intended to be gamebreaking cheese. Consider it wishlisting if you'd like

1: Change the Blacksword Missiles on the Nephilum to Str 8.
2: Increase the range of the Plasma Cannon Battery for the Vengeance to 36"
3: increase the armor on the Vengence and Darkshroud to 11/11/10 to make it harder to glace them to death
4: Give the Whirlwind an AA option, with interceptor and skyfire. (( This could even replace its normal missile load))

I agree on 1.

For 2, I would just lower the cost of the Vengeance.

I have no opinion about 3 since i never field Darkshrouds.

About 4, the lack of AA is a global problem. Giving 4 MS with Flakk on a Devastator is about 100pt cost (MS = 15pt + 10 for flakk), which is pretty stupid since those devs tends to get focused down pretty easily and end up not doing much but glancing a flyer (at least when I try them).
Perhaps lowering the total cost of a ML with Flakk from 25pt to 20pt or 15pt would counter the OP of flyers in a couple of armies.