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Can this work at this point level? or is this just silliness

you wont have enough fire power to kill anything, bad idea, I wouldnt even take 3 in a 2500 pt game, hell I dont even want to take one..

I don't think it would a great idea, but if you want to try it I think you need to build the list around them specifically.

My teammate, Janthkin, actually played against a triple wraithknight list at the ATC and he told me that it was just brutal. Not really the wraithknights, but the other units. The guy also ran 3x9 jetbikes and the shooting was just brutal.

Personally, I don't think 3 wraithknights is the best eldar combination. They've just got too many great units - spiders, war walkers, jetbikes, dark reapers, serpents, eldar artillery, etc. I prefer to run 2 at most and it's been working for my own list.

If you run 3x wraithknight, you pretty much have all your AT taken care of. What they cant shoot dead, they punch dead. You can take on most deathstars simply by assaulting with more than 1. You can also deal with MCs quite easily. What you cant deal with, is hordes. Orks and nids will cause problems. Spiders or hawks would almost be a necessity to clear out large groups. Jetbikes make good troops due to their good anti-inf shooting and ability to operate without transport. Solo autarch with firesabre would be nice for cleaning up gaunt units and breaking WK out of prolonged assaults.

You also cant deal with fliers, but fliers cant really deal with you either. MM/LC stormraven can put maybe 1 wound a turn on you if you have a foot in cover. Vendetta throws 1 or 2 on a turn, which is a problem, but you can out-maneuver groups of them (and can shoot them if nothing else, as you would auto-pen on hit)

I think 2x or 3x wraithknight is a very strong list. It deals with a lot of the "strong" armies like tau or crons well and can even work vs things like nids if you get that distort wound (no cover for you terv! Im taller!). 720 points really isnt that much either. Most armies are spending ~600 points in "dedicated AT" platforms. I consider it one of the stronger tourney lists after playing with my two in a few games.

I agree with zephoid and Jy2 that multiple wraithknights are very viable, and that three can be a good list. Zephoid, for anti-Horde why not give the big guy a suncannon and scatter laser? so one with suncannon and two with wraithcannons could work. then run jetbikes for troops. I thought of a list for 1850 that involved three wraithknights, one with a suncannon, 2 crimson hunters, 10 warp spiders, and then 4 or five groups of 3 jetbikes with cannons in each squad and a farseer on a bike. I think it can be improved, but it has a lot of potential with dealing with strong lists. Whats your opinion?

I'm playing around with multiple Wraithknights right now. Hell, I'm about to run 2 in 1000pts in about two hours as a trial list for a 1k tournament coming up.

Iyanden Spiritseer with Spear of Tethuas
Wraithscythesx5
Wraithguardx5
Wraithknight Dual Heavy Wraithcannons
Wraithknight Suncannon/Shield/ScatterLaser
995pts

Should be a blast.

As they've said before, it takes care of you AT, AA can be a problem, and Hordes are a problem. Possible solutions are to make sure you have antihorde capabilities elsewhere in your army. Fielding one Wraithknight with a Suncannon and Scatterlaser can help as well.

You'll end up with a list that gets smashed by lists designed to kill wraithknights, and smashes all lists that are not prepared to deal with them.

Certainly seems like a skillful way to play 40k

Because any smart opponent will be spacing out or putting his army in cover when he sees a suncannon. It also decreases your AT potential that eldar need to get from their HS. Finally, where wraithcannons have the same target as a wraithknight wants to punch, suncannon very often does not. Shooting that S6 vs that russ or even AV12 vehicles is not an effective use of points. Also its more expensive than the default.

Crimson hunters are a waste of slot and points. As i said, what fliers do you have to be concerned about? Vendettas? Thats about it. Guide a WK and you have a pretty darn good chance of getting a hit too, so its not like you are defenseless.
run two 6 man hawks squads instead with sunrifle. 10x warp spiders is a bit of a big unit, but it could work. Then 3x 3 jetbikes with a cannon each and 2x 6 jetbike unit with cannons. Throw a ranger squad in there for backfield camping. Solotarch+ jetseer for HQs and maybe some warlocks thrown around to the jetbike squads. Destructor jetbikes are quite effective at removing horde.


Edit

 Dakkamite wrote:
You'll end up with a list that gets smashed by lists designed to kill wraithknights, and smashes all lists that are not prepared to deal with them.

Certainly seems like a skillful way to play 40k

Like...... what? All those DE players you see in tourneys? Kroot snipers may get 1 after 2 turns of shooting, but meanwhile you are on top of their line. Assault each unit with a wraithknight or hell, even jetbikes, and they are done (i had 3 jetbikes kill 15 kroot with shoot+ assault). Marines have no-anti meq list. Only nids have a good solution and are played in competitive settings. Even then, play the keep-away game and you are nearly getting a distort wound per turn on his tervigons. Killing 2 tervs (and all the gaunts from psychic backlash) by turn 3 pretty much ruins nids, not to mention your other firepower. Flyrants? wtf are they going to do here? Simply knock the flyrants down when they get close to your army with you bike TL shots, and assault it and watch it die in melee. plus a flyant is more expensive than a WK and often a warlord.

Honestly, there are very, very few TAC lists that can deal with 2+ wraithknight before their anti-mc is dead. Maybe a full 3 wraith unit list could, but even then you can probably load up on blinding from hawks, S7 from spiders, and a horde of mid-str shots from your bikes to take at least one unit down at range. WK does a pretty good job vs wraiths, but full wraith units do kill one over time.

Because any smart opponent will be spacing out or putting his army in cover when he sees a suncannon. It also decreases your AT potential that eldar need to get from their HS. Finally, where wraithcannons have the same target as a wraithknight wants to punch, suncannon very often does not. Shooting that S6 vs that russ or even AV12 vehicles is not an effective use of points. Also its more expensive than the default.

Crimson hunters are a waste of slot and points. As i said, what fliers do you have to be concerned about? Vendettas? Thats about it. Guide a WK and you have a pretty darn good chance of getting a hit too, so its not like you are defenseless.
run two 6 man hawks squads instead with sunrifle. 10x warp spiders is a bit of a big unit, but it could work. Then 3x 3 jetbikes with a cannon each and 2x 6 jetbike unit with cannons. Throw a ranger squad in there for backfield camping. Solotarch+ jetseer for HQs and maybe some warlocks thrown around to the jetbike squads. Destructor jetbikes are quite effective at removing horde.

Instead of jetbikes, why not use guardians with starcannons behind an ADL? that way they have some AP2 punch, an autarch with bike and shard of Anaris, and a spiritseer? or even three spiritseers with the autarch and 4 squads of guardians and an autarch if i choose Iyanden supplement.

well, WKs are durable as all heck, but they arent powerhouses in melee. Few attacks means it can often be bogged down. I use one and haven't been overly impressed by its melee capabilities. It mostly can just beat up on troops. I'm not sure 3 is a great investment, I do like 1 and even 2. I think at 3 you just end up losing out on too many other good things, like Serpents and Spiders.

Zagman wrote:
I'm playing around with multiple Wraithknights right now. Hell, I'm about to run 2 in 1000pts in about two hours as a trial list for a 1k tournament coming up.

Iyanden Spiritseer with Spear of Tethuas
Wraithscythesx5
Wraithguardx5
Wraithknight Dual Heavy Wraithcannons
Wraithknight Suncannon/Shield/ScatterLaser
995pts

Should be a blast.

As they've said before, it takes care of you AT, AA can be a problem, and Hordes are a problem. Possible solutions are to make sure you have antihorde capabilities elsewhere in your army. Fielding one Wraithknight with a Suncannon and Scatterlaser can help as well.

Figured I'd tell you guys how it went.

Purge the Alien, Vanguard Deployment

He had...

Farseer
20 Guardians, Bright Lance, Warlock
20 Guardians, Bright Lance, Warlock

7 Dark Reapers, Exarch, Fastshot, all with Starshot

Fire Prism HoloFields


He had me deploy first and failed to seize.

Needless to say it wasn't a great matchup for me.

I blew the Dark Reapers away, but was too aggressive with my Wraithknights. I also had abysmal runs, 1,1,2,2. I tried to draw him forward enough to limit his number of shots while allowing me to charge him the next turn.
With a really good Battle Focus he he dealt 10 wounds to my Suncannon Wraithknight with a Prescience Squad(Average should have been 6). I failed six saves and lost my Warlord.
With another good Battle Focus he deals 7 wounds to my Stock Wraithknight(Average should have been 4.5).
Prism kills one Wraithscythe.
Both Wraithknights are dead T1.
Other 4 Wraithscyth move forward and deal 31 wounds to his Farseer Squad wiping it.
His remaining Guardian Squad Battlefocuses and gets 6 wounds on the Spiritseer and 4 Wraithscythe(Average should have been 4.5). I lose two and my Spiritseer.
His Fireprism kills the remaining Wraithscythe.

At this point I have lost and try to dance for cover and his deployment zone as the game is Drawn and Linebreaker is critical for a win. He manages to kill 2 more Wraithguard with his Prism.
I attempt to shoot assault. Failing to kill any. Roll poorly for DT, but make assault range with 2. His overwatch kills them and I fail my assault.(Average was 1.1 wounds, he got 2).

Game ends with me being tabled.

Had I played more cautiously or he not rolled unrealistically well I should have had an easy win. A mistake and some phenomenal rolling later I was tabled.

Guardian blobs are indeed very scary for a Wraithknight.

Very scary. Especially 40 psuedo rending shots... nothing to snuff at. but thats where you wipe out the dark reapers, and then just start plucking away at the squads with the suncannon. Still think its worth it though after that game?

one mistake and one round of good shooting should not result in you being tabled, the fact is 2 wraith knights in 1000 pts is slowed and bad.

toocool61 wrote:
Very scary. Especially 40 psuedo rending shots... nothing to snuff at. but thats where you wipe out the dark reapers, and then just start plucking away at the squads with the suncannon. Still think its worth it though after that game?

Absolutely, I shouldn't have played forward. I had all the time in the world to sit back and win that game. I was impatient and relied on the odds that I could survive his onslaught to table him. Things went really really poorly via dice. Had I been patient there was very little he could have done to win the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
one mistake and one round of good shooting should not result in you being tabled, the fact is 2 wraith knights in 1000 pts is slowed and bad.

Thank you for your astute comment.

It was one mistake, which if I hadn't of made it I was virtually guaranteed a victory, but I wanted to table him. It was him rolling 150%, 150%, 160%, and 175% the amount of 6's he should have in three rounds, the first of which was the first round that did it.

The list was solid and I easily had the tools needed for success even against a difficult matchup. One rushed game is not enough evidence.

Using "slowed" is really in bad taste. Please be more respectful of the mentally handicapped.

How is getting tabled "easily having the tools for success" Also his list wasn't even good, at least what of it you posted. Ive never once gotten tabled and ive run some pretty horrendously bad lists in the name of hilarity and fun.

I may not be giving you the msg in a tone you like, but the msg is being sent none the less.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
How is getting tabled "easily having the tools for success" Also his list wasn't even good, at least what of it you posted. Ive never once gotten tabled and ive run some pretty horrendously bad lists in the name of hilarity and fun.

I may not be giving you the msg in a tone you like, but the msg is being sent none the less.

His list wasn't "good", but being bad made it better against Wraithknights. And he is a good player, even if he doesn't field the strongest of lists. I've seen him make it to Ard Boyz Finals(multiple) with "bad" lists. Had I not misplayed the Wraithknights and been more conservative it was all but in the bag. Being too aggressive let him have a string of amazing luck which turned it in his favor. I could have easily of sat back and won by a couple of VPs, but I went to table him. What I am trying to convey is that the list had the capability of winning even a bad matchup for it.

You've never been tabled? Really, I find that difficult to believe because you are about the only person who has played 40k that can say that. Hell, I had even been tabled with a list that I placed with at an Ard Boyz Finals, one of its only losses.

The message you are conveying is very clear, though it isn't the one you intended. It has more to do with you than the list I fielded or my play.

As said before.. You wont win any tournaments.. Even against TAC lists you'll struggle..
All your gonna do is crush the lists that aren't built well.. It's basically the worst sort of rock scissors paper..

As said before.. You wont win any tournaments.. Even against TAC lists you'll struggle..
All your gonna do is crush the lists that aren't built well.. It's basically the worst sort of rock scissors paper..

Why do you say that? Wraith Knight are very durable AT/troops. If you need anything else such as Anti horde or Anti-Air the other slots in the Eldar codex have sufficient ways to deal with them.

The worst matchup for a double or triple WK list is another Eldar player. Shuriken weapons are fantastic now, and you can kiss your T10 goodbye when the 6's start dropping. Otherwise, I don't think much out there aside from Iron Armed Daemons or letting yourself get into range of 20 man Kroot sniper squads can take them out reliably. I know if I faced that list with my Eldar I wouldn't worry at all, but if I faced it with my GK I'd probably start sweating a little, lol.

I run and love two at 1850. Three is too many. One simply loses too much by taking a third.

In my experience Tau, Eldar and Necrons all can deal with them fairly well and all 3 are very popular. I think the WK is very useful, but he is more of a jack of all trades rather than a specialist and therefore he isn't a great shooter or pugilist. They pay A LOT for durability and utility and I think in order to compete with the extreme builds out there you need to have a very good firebase, the WK takes away from that to an extent because those str. 10 guns will not always be useful.

How can necron deal with wraithknights easily? they have a ton of strength 7 weapons that aren't very effective against them. Tau will always be a problem for a while until an army is made to counter them or make them less of a powerhouse. Eldar have psuedo rending so they will be scary.

I think you guys are hitting it right on the head. There are a couple of armies who easily deal with high toughness, Eldar, Dark Eldar, possibly Necron, and possibly GK.

Eldar have Shuriken Weapons which are devastating. If they are fielding small squads for Wave Serpent span Wraithknights are actually tougher, but if they are running footdar or larger squads of base troops its not a tough matchup.

Dark Eldar have Poison, blasters, and lots of it. Though due to meta shifts they aren't nearly as prevalent than they were in 5th.

Necron have Wraith Span and Flyer Spam, one has the tools to take Wraithknights, the other can ignore them. Mind Shackle Scarabs are also supremely effective.

GK have Force Weapons. They have to rely on multiple sources of Hammerhand or Hammers to wound the Wraithknight, then Force Weapon Activation. Dreadknights are a hard counter, though they have their own difficulties facing Eldar. That being said, GK struggle to hurt Wraithknights outside of CC as even Psycannons struggle to wound them.


Many other armies have major difficulties against them.

Tau struggle as S7 AP4 just isn't the solution and Tau lack the ability to reliably wound them. Wraithknights are a pretty hard counter to Riptides and Battle Suits. Wraithknights, especially in multiple, are terrifying for Tau.

Space Marine, including Chaos Variety, MEQ armies in general struggle to field the tools necessary to down multiple Wraithknights. Yes they have them, combi melta spam, etc, but these units aren't hitting the table with as much necessety as times past as AV is on the down trend. Diversified MEQ armies stuggle to field the necessary weapons in the right quantities. Few melee units are capable of threatening them and ID is pretty rare(Mephiston, TH/SS Termies, etc excluded).

Daemons also struggle against high T models, especially ones easily equipped to ID DPs.

IG has the tools, Vendetta Spam, Meltavets, etc. But the meta has changed and some of the nastier 5th builds are less effective with the exception of Vendetta spam.

I wouldnt say Tau are bad vs WKs. Ive killed 2 in a turn before, without absurd luck. The Puretide chip can help a bunch depending on what it is attached to and SkyRays with marker support can quickly kill a WK. Riptides fear them, but keep in mind that 3 of them average less than 1 ID wound a turn and the Riptide can give himself a 3++ or GTG in area for 3+ cover.

Wraiths are tough for eldar as they are good vs the WKs and Serpents. 18 Wraiths + 2 Dlords would do a number on a player with 3 WKs.

 LValx wrote:
I wouldnt say Tau are bad vs WKs. Ive killed 2 in a turn before, without absurd luck. The Puretide chip can help a bunch depending on what it is attached to and SkyRays with marker support can quickly kill a WK. Riptides fear them, but keep in mind that 3 of them average less than 1 ID wound a turn and the Riptide can give himself a 3++ or GTG in area for 3+ cover.

Wraiths are tough for eldar as they are good vs the WKs and Serpents. 18 Wraiths + 2 Dlords would do a number on a player with 3 WKs.

I don't doubt you were able to do it, but here is my case as to why the Wraithknight is a tough nut to crack for the Tau.

Two SkyRays with the support of 12 Markerlight Hits and SMSs deals an average of 5.2 wounds and 3.5 if it has a scattershield or Toe save. So 14 Seeker Missiles/MarkerLights to drop one, 22 with Scattershield/Toe Save.

It takes 65 BS3 Monster Hunter Missiles to Down one or 109 BS3 shots without Monster Hunter. 216 BS3 Pulse Rifle/SMS Shots... 72/108 BS3 Plasma Shots... 24/36 BS3 Fusion Blaster shots... 43/54 Kroot Sniper Shots... Infinity Kroot Pulse Shots... 11/16 BS4 Hammerhead Shots

It takes a Riptide 12/18 Turns of shooting its IA to kill one. 7/10 Turns with Full Marker Light Support. Only 5/8 Turns with an Earth Caste HBC.

You don't kill Riptides with ID, you charge them and beat them in CC. And the ID pot shots on the way just in case you get lucky.


I'm not saying Tau can't kill a Wraithknight, but the sheer volume of fire that it takes makes it extremely unlikely. Most Tau lists <2000pts can't kill 1 in a single turn of firing everything at it, let alone 2. Meanwhile the Tau don't have a single CC threat that scares the Wraithknight barring a very lucky and bold Riptide. And even that is pretty slim. If a Tau list wants to beat a WK lists, they'd best target everything else.

Takes 7/11 rounds for a Riptide to kill a Wraithknight in CC while a Wraithknight kills the Riptide in 3/5 Rounds depending on FNP(Assuming no Failed Morale). 39% chance of failing Morale, 92% chance of being caught.

Actually, a Missileside unit w/ full drone collection (which it will have) and a Raven Commander (not rare) will reliably drop a WK in 1 turn...

You get 9 S5 + 36 S7 shots at TL BS:5 which should put around 8 unsaved wounds on the WK, which equals a hella dead WK.

As for triple WK, I don't played Eldar, but I've gone against 2 WK before and I snuck out a win. You won't have enough units that will survive if your opponent has any sense of target priority. It does seem fairly scary combined with Spiders though. Camping min sized DA in WS and sending them out late game to contest/grab objectives seems sound.

Lucarikx

 Lucarikx wrote:


You get 9 S5 + 36 S7 shots at TL BS:5 which should put around 8 unsaved wounds on the WK, which equals a hella dead WK.

I think your math is a bit faulty.

That comes out to .48 + 3.87 Wounds or ~4 Wounds. ~7 if you gave him the Puretide as well for Monster Hunter. Now you are spending 400+ pts to maybe kill one in a turn with alot of your eggs in one bastket. And that isn't likely. Far from a fool proof plan as with the points you spent they can have almost two of them, or a unit of WraithScythe in a Serpent, or any number of other threats.

We've moved into the realm of looking at units in a Vacuum and 40k isn't in played in a Vacuum. Thousands of possibilities can start to alter these scenarios.

So short of one or two very potent units, which are far less likely to be fielded than you say as something like the Farsight Bomb, against anything else, the Wraithknight does very well. The rest of the Tau Army struggles, you've not refuted that point but only listed a specific and less than likely counter unit.

Everyone is making good points and I thank you for responding. While there are things out there to deal with the wraith knights? People seem to exclude the fact there is other units you might want to shoot at with those units. So is the verdict 1-2 are viable but three are just silly? And what would you guys take in the last heavy slot? I was thinking walkers with dual star cannons or mix star canon/ scatter laser

I think two is a sweetspot, though one is fine too.

If you must fill the last spot, Vaul's Support platforms probably. More high Toughness, and only 90 points, so plenty of other army.