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*sigh

Ok, first off, i apologize if i sounded like a jerk in my earlier posts. I was just a bit frustrated that I failed to verbate in a way that was understandable.

I obviously cannot convince you of my case, so Im just gonna leave with a final question.



Do you fully believe that as written there is no room for disagreement on this issue?

I personally feel that until this is clarified in a FAQ that the issue will be argued either way.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, quite obviously, Loremaster (high magic), means he knows all spells from high magic

Citation please for Loremaster to grant him spells from something that isn't his lore. So basically you're admitting your using the Loremaster USR but picking and choosing which parts apply... that is not RAW.

Please, point me to where loremaster limits you to using a single lore. Because, unless your rulebook is different to mine, it doesn't. The rule is written because it is written for characters who have the loremaster USR on their profile. Which means they are limited to a single lore. But, because a slann doesn't have that rule, but upgrades to it, he maintains his original spells simply because he upgrades to become one.

Why does it need to say Loremaster means you can only take 1 lore? I've never stated it says that. If you want to choose 2 Lores to be your lores you NEED permission. Where is your permission to choose 2 lores?

No the rule is written as a USR that either a model has or he gets from some rule or wargear. You are just ignoring large chunks of the rule because they don't allow you to do something that you want to claim is RAW when it is not.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does it need to say Loremaster means you can only take 1 lore? I've never stated it says that. If you want to choose 2 Lores to be your lores you NEED permission. Where is your permission to choose 2 lores?

No the rule is written as a USR that either a model has or he gets from some rule or wargear. You are just ignoring large chunks of the rule because they don't allow you to do something that you want to claim is RAW when it is not.

As per the rule, he picks a lore, and uses it. If he has access to other lores, I.E. Slann with focus of Mystgery, he can use that lores, as the rule does not limit you to one lore. And as he knows both lores, he can cast spells from both lores.

Where are you getting he knows both lores from? Where are yougetting ppermission to pick 2 lores?

The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

I think you need to read Loremaster again it doesn't say what you think it does.the underlined is not correct. It is not a lore of his choice. It is his chosen lore (i.e. the lore he generates his spells from). A wizard's chosen lore has a definite meaning in the rules and it is the lore you choose on your army list. If that is not High Magic then Loremaster (High Magic) does nothing for you.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HRZ wrote:
The wording of Loremaster is pretty clear.

If you take it step by step, the first thing you do is pick a lore. If you choose Life or anything but High, then the Focus of Mystery is just wasted points as it only gives you the Loremaster special rule IF AND ONLY IF you choose High. If you were to pull what you're trying to pull with my gaming group, you'd have your slaan shoved down your throat.


Now as to the op and his list, please, please, give us a batrep once you play a match...

The lore master doesn't actually say any of that. It says he knows all the spells from a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore, and knows all the spells from it. Now. It doesn't say anything about having to use that lore. Which means, if, and only if, you can obtain loremaster in addition to your spells, you can access both.

I think you need to read Loremaster again it doesn't say what you think it does.the underlined is not correct. It is not a lore of his choice. It is his chosen lore (i.e. the lore he generates his spells from). A wizard's chosen lore has a definite meaning in the rules and it is the lore you choose on your army list. If that is not High Magic then Loremaster (High Magic) does nothing for you.

It means exactly what I said it does. The words his chosen lore. are exactly the same as a lore of his choice.

No it does not. His chosen lore has a specific meaning in Warhammer. You need to read up the magic rules and spell generation rules. Even in basic English they have different meanings as "his chosen lore" means very much a singular and exclusive set, a lore of his choice means any lore from a selection.

You admit your interpretation isn't RaI. It has proven to not be clear RAW (or indeed any RAW) so why even bother continuing arguing unless you're desperate to cheat?

The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

Sums it up for me.

Off topic from the slann, I think terradons are useless compared to the potential damage output of ripperdactyls I would switch them out if I were you.

The Real Slann Shady wrote:
Off topic from the slann, I think terradons are useless compared to the potential damage output of ripperdactyls I would switch them out if I were you.

Rippers are really only better against the toaded unit.
Terradons get the boost via rock drop, which you can do on any unit.

I really don't think either is very good, and both are largely situational based on what they are paired off against.
That said, I'd go with chiefs on rippers and units of terradons.
The cheap 2+ armor of the chief makes him a nice support unit, and units of terradons do a good job at chaff clearing.

-Matt

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
When have I conceded anything?

Right here.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Whilst I do agree it shouldn't work like that, with the current wording of the book. It does.

You are abusing a poorly worded rule despite admittingly knowing it is not how the rule is intended to be played. Call it cheating, call it poor sportmanship, call it whatever you like. You understand how the rule is intended to be played yet clearly have no qualms with applying it in a way which grants you an advantage on the grounds that it is not explicitly defined as illegal.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

Basically this whole thing is made up. The rules state you pick A lore which is the same as 1 lore. That's how English works. You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

You ignore RAW, you admit you are ignoring RAI. You keep saying stuff that is either irrelevant or already been disproven. You come up with no counter arguments just repeating irrelevance and debunked stuff...

 feluca wrote:
I'm sorry, aren't we supposed to discuss army lists? I'm sure there are various topics adressing this very question.

As I said before, your list lacks damage output, and it would not be wise to rely completely on magic, wether it is with 12 or with 8 spells. Get some heavy hitters is my advise.

Agreed! One "real" unit just isn't going to cut it, imo.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

Agree completely. This is where the argument of the OP falls down.
Manfredd and the old Fateweaver (havent read the new DoC book) come to mind here and in both these cases they have VERY specific permission to take multiple lores. Slanns do not, with or without this discipline. Why would it be left for players to connect the dots based upon what isnt written (as opposed to what is) for this rule to be applied.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

alex87 wrote:
The fact that the OP has conceded that this is not how the rule is intended and admits that this is essentially taking advantage of a set of rules that is not completely watertight says it all. As far as I'm concerned that is cheating. You will struggle to find opponents that will allow this.

When have I conceded anything? I am merely stating that a rule does not say something which other people are saying it does. His chosen lore means that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it, nothing about having to use that lore. If he had to pick A lore, then characters with loremastery of multiple lores wouldn't work.

You can rule it the way you want, but as per the wording of the BRB, and the fact that the only discipline that explicitly stops you from rolling for spells is Wandering Deliberations, it works as allowing you to keep your four spells as well as loremastery of high magic.

Basically this whole thing is made up. The rules state you pick A lore which is the same as 1 lore. That's how English works. You need permission to take multiple lores. You have none, characters with multiple lores have permission to have multiple lores that is why they work.

You ignore RAW, you admit you are ignoring RAI. You keep saying stuff that is either irrelevant or already been disproven. You come up with no counter arguments just repeating irrelevance and debunked stuff...

A) His chosen directly translates to a choice of his, which means his chosen lore translates directly to a lore of his choice. So he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it. Loremaster says nothing about that becoming your only lore if you can obtain it at another point to the character rules section, like a slann.

B- Using Mannfred as an example, he has permission to use spells from both, but as stated in point A, a character who obtains loremaster as an upgrade, will be able to access it and his normal spells due to it being an upgrade, and loremaster not overriding spell generation, as well as having loremastery of lore x.

C- RAI, it should override, RAW, it doesn't. I believe I've explained it in the simplest fashion I can, and if that isn't clear, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why bother making a list hinging on that reading, though? Any tourney organizer you ask about it (as you should) before playing will likely house rule it, and GW will likely FAQ it out of existence soon, anyway.

Regardless, further discussion about it probably deserves it's own thread in YMDC, since it's gone on for pages here already and this really isn't the section for it.

A) His chosen Lore has a specific meaning in the rules. So stop ignoring the rules. Plus if High is his chosen lore where are you getting permission to also pick Life? Picking a spell lore is defined in the BRB please point to where the Slaan gets exemption to these rules?
B)No without access to either Lore of Vampires or Death Mannfred would gain nothing from his duel lore mastery. That is why he has a specific exemption to the usual method of picking A spell lore.
C) RAW doesn't work. RAW if you ignore lots rules and play by a Loremaster RAI as you choose it then take Focus of Mystery at RAW you can just about justify on a nothing says I can't (except a few rules in the BRB)...

 FlingitNow wrote:
A) His chosen Lore has a specific meaning in the rules. So stop ignoring the rules. Plus if High is his chosen lore where are you getting permission to also pick Life? Picking a spell lore is defined in the BRB please point to where the Slaan gets exemption to these rules?

The slaan gains exemption when he purchases loremaster, because loremaster does not force you to use that lore. So suddenly, a slann has access to high and lore x from the rulebook.

As I pointed out, it literally translates to a lore of his choice, so he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it. Hence, if a model has access to loremaster y and lore x, they would know all of lore y, and z numbers of lore x.

 FlingitNow wrote:

B)No without access to either Lore of Vampires or Death Mannfred would gain nothing from his duel lore mastery. That is why he has a specific exemption to the usual method of picking A spell lore.

He doesn't. His character page says he uses spells from both, but he has loremastery of both, with no special rule for it. If we go by your definition of loremaster, he would need to pick one.

 FlingitNow wrote:

C) RAW doesn't work. RAW if you ignore lots rules and play by a Loremaster RAI as you choose it then take Focus of Mystery at RAW you can just about justify on a nothing says I can't (except a few rules in the BRB)...

There are no rules in the BRB to support your argument that loremaster limits you to one lore. It only says that he picks a lore and knows all spells from it. If it was in the character's special rules, then it would be the only lore he knows, but if he purcghases it as an upgrade, he would know it as well as his normal lore.

I.E. Tetto'Ekko has Loremastery of heavens in his rules. A Slaan doesn't, therefore Tetto'Ekko knows heavens spells, whislt a loremaster high slann would know spells from high and whatever lore he chooses.

A) yes Loremaster doesn't force him to make High the lore of his choice. But if High is not his chosen lore then Loremaster does not give him the eight spells from it. Stop ignoring what the rules define as a wizard's lore.

B) Read Mannfred's rules. He uses spells from BOTH Vampires and Death. What lore(s) does a Slaan use spells from? To me "Lore of High Magic OR ONE of the eight Lores" means only 1 Lore. Please show where your permission is to choose 2 Lores here.

C) Stop lying. Stop saying I have an argument I have NEVER made. Stop saying Loremaster states he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it as it does not state that. Why does paying points make the rule work differently? Please quote the rule that states this as this is a claim you've made a few times with no RAW support (just like the rest of your argument).

 FlingitNow wrote:
A) yes Loremaster doesn't force him to make High the lore of his choice. But if High is not his chosen lore then Loremaster does not give him the eight spells from it. Stop ignoring what the rules define as a wizard's lore.

B) Read Mannfred's rules. He uses spells from BOTH Vampires and Death. What lore(s) does a Slaan use spells from? To me "Lore of High Magic OR ONE of the eight Lores" means only 1 Lore. Please show where your permission is to choose 2 Lores here.

C) Stop lying. Stop saying I have an argument I have NEVER made. Stop saying Loremaster states he picks a lore and knows all the spells from it as it does not state that. Why does paying points make the rule work differently? Please quote the rule that states this as this is a claim you've made a few times with no RAW support (just like the rest of your argument).

A. I've already said this. His chosen lore directly translates to a lore of his choice. Stop mistranslating a sentence in order to try and prove a point.

B. If he has to use a lore he has loremastery of, under your definition, he has to choose one, as he has no rule that overrides loremaster. But he doesn't work like that because loremaster means that he chooses a lore and knows it all. If a character can purchase x number of loremasteries, thebln he could know x number of lores. Likewise, if a character purchases loremaster in addition to generating 4 spells, he can access both lores, because his chosen lore is the lore he rolled 4 spells from, and h is a loremaster of the other.
C. Your argument that I RAW that I have to use high is what I'm trying to disprove. And everything I have quoted comes from this thread. And yes loremaster does state what I said it dos because what I'm saying it states is the literal translation. So, RAW loremaster works his way, not rcing you to use it, untik gw faq it.

Is English your first language?
He knows all the high magic spells end of story. It isn't loremaster high and something of your choice. Please, please try this at any tournie it will never fly!
Remeber it is a permissive rule set where do you get to take 2 lores?

A. Read the rules a wizards chosen lore is defined. Stop ignoring rules when trying to claim RAW. Show that Loremaster means you get to select a second lore.

B. Again with the lies. How many times do I have to tell you that I have NEVER said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your lore, your entire argument is hinged on fighting against this claim, despite me never making it. This illustrates that you know you are wrong because you have to lie about my argument in order to counter it. Loremaster (x) gives you all the spells from (x) if x is the wizard's lore. What is Mannfred's lore? Well we are told both Vampires and Death are his lores. Therefore Loremaster (Vampires) means he knows all the spells from Vampires, AND Loremaster (death) means he knows all the spells from Death. If he didn't have that specific exemption to have both Vampires & Death as his lore then RAW Loremaster (Vampires/Death) would only trigger for the lore he chose.

C. Well you claim that Loremaster works different when purchased as an upgrade rather than as a USR you need to back that claim up. You have failed to do so. You are saying you can select 2 lores for a Slaan without any permission to do so. Prove that Loremaster gives you permission to select a 2nd lore

 FlingitNow wrote:
A. Read the rules a wizards chosen lore is defined. Stop ignoring rules when trying to claim RAW. Show that Loremaster means you get to select a second lore.

B. Again with the lies. How many times do I have to tell you that I have NEVER said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your lore, your entire argument is hinged on fighting against this claim, despite me never making it. This illustrates that you know you are wrong because you have to lie about my argument in order to counter it. Loremaster (x) gives you all the spells from (x) if x is the wizard's lore. What is Mannfred's lore? Well we are told both Vampires and Death are his lores. Therefore Loremaster (Vampires) means he knows all the spells from Vampires, AND Loremaster (death) means he knows all the spells from Death. If he didn't have that specific exemption to have both Vampires & Death as his lore then RAW Loremaster (Vampires/Death) would only trigger for the lore he chose.

C. Well you claim that Loremaster works different when purchased as an upgrade rather than as a USR you need to back that claim up. You have failed to do so. You are saying you can select 2 lores for a Slaan without any permission to do so. Prove that Loremaster gives you permission to select a 2nd lore

A. It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore. The rule does not even hint at that becoming your only lore. The only time loremaster is your only lore is if the character has it as a USR on their page. Like Tetto'Ekko, or Mazdamundi.

B. If you can find where loremaster says you have to use x as your lore I would be very happy. As, having looked at loremaster, there is no hinting at that. The rule states that the wizard knows all the spells of his chosen lore. NOTHING about it overriding spell generation. UNLESS, it is written into the character's special rules. I.E. Mannfred, Mazdamundi and Tetto'Ekko.

C. See points A & B.


The spell generation page states that a wizard knows whatever spells he rolls. The loremastery page states that he picks a lore and knows all the spells, nothing about it overriding his lore choice, UNLESS it is written into his character page, as then he has the loremaster rule apply to his lore choice. A slann doesn't, however, so may pick a lore and generate 4 spells from it as well as knowing all of high magic.

Are you being deliberately stupid? Sorry but you're arguing irrelevance again. Please argue against the points I've made or concede stating irrelevant facts that we both agree on is not helpful.

It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore (if that lore is the lore chosen as stated above).

Part in brackets added as was emphasis by me. All of this is true. So if you chose "Life" to be your chosen lore in your army list. Then Loremaster (High), by what you have stated above, does nothing for you as High is not your chosen lore.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Are you being deliberately stupid? Sorry but you're arguing irrelevance again. Please argue against the points I've made or concede stating irrelevant facts that we both agree on is not helpful.

It's defined as a lore of your choice. As per the reference section, where it states that your chosen lore is the lore you chose. Which is exactly what I've been arguing. Loremaster of any lore would give you all the spells from that lore (if that lore is the lore chosen as stated above).

Part in brackets added as was emphasis by me. All of this is true. So if you chose "Life" to be your chosen lore in your army list. Then Loremaster (High), by what you have stated above, does nothing for you as High is not your chosen lore.

His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high.

Therefore, the fact that he knows all those spells means that he can indeed use them.

If a spell is not generated randomly, it can be used any number of times a per the bullet point at the bottom of p. 490. Therefore, as slann could even be a level 4 high mage as well as a loremaster of high magic.