Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think order of magnitude in common parlance means this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude

So in my case, which only speaks to local variables, Airfix kits are an order of mangitude cheaper. Granted, they represent more work of bitzification, but they are. Udisco has some for 4$.

 Doomsdave wrote:
I am an inveterate OCD bibiophile. I love books, particularly beautiful books. I have at least one large bookshelf in every room of my home. My children have large bookshelves in each of their rooms. My coffee tables and, indeed any flat surface in my home is littered with books. I don't even play with 40K rules (ITEN and Fubar 40K FTW); but I am the target market for these kind of books. Unfortunately I haven't bought a 40K rulebook since 4th, because the precious volume didn't even make it home before the pages started falling out. I don't mind paying premiums for books, but I expect durability. I don't know how the latest Britannica size BRBs wear as I can't bring myself to purchase something that will disintegrate. I have an AD&D DM guide from 1979. It is going on 35 years of use, survived trips around the world and many happy hours of page turning/gaming. That thing is still bulletproof.

The quality of 40k books back then was pretty bad, though I think the quality has gradually increased overall since then.

 ph34r wrote:

 Doomsdave wrote:
I am an inveterate OCD bibiophile. I love books, particularly beautiful books. I have at least one large bookshelf in every room of my home. My children have large bookshelves in each of their rooms. My coffee tables and, indeed any flat surface in my home is littered with books. I don't even play with 40K rules (ITEN and Fubar 40K FTW); but I am the target market for these kind of books. Unfortunately I haven't bought a 40K rulebook since 4th, because the precious volume didn't even make it home before the pages started falling out. I don't mind paying premiums for books, but I expect durability. I don't know how the latest Britannica size BRBs wear as I can't bring myself to purchase something that will disintegrate. I have an AD&D DM guide from 1979. It is going on 35 years of use, survived trips around the world and many happy hours of page turning/gaming. That thing is still bulletproof.

The quality of 40k books back then was pretty bad, though I think the quality has gradually increased overall since then.

The quality of the codices has certainly improved. Not sure how the rulebooks hold up now, but I know my 8th ed fantasy rulebook started peeling from the binding in less than a week with very little handling. Maybe it was just a bad apple in the bunch, but I shouldn't have to deal with that for a 75 dollar book.

My 40k 6th ed book is holding up much better it seems, though I haven't pulled it out in like 10 months

I didn't realize Anyone used their big rulebooks often enough to wear them out

 cincydooley wrote:
I didn't realize Anyone used their big rulebooks often enough to wear them out

I like having the big book for browsing rules at home after a game or whatever. To bring this a little on topic, I'm the kind of guy that prefers a book even when a game's rules are free. I bought the Infinity rulebook just because it is more convenient for me and I like having a book to thumb through.

If this book had been released at the start of 6th ed I probably would have bought it, though the price is too high IMO. For 10 dollars more you can get the full Infinity rulebook that has the fluff, army lists, rules and it is hardback too. The timing of the book is also strange, since anyone who wants a rulebook either has the big one or a DV one. Maybe that is the point though, to drive up sales of the 70 dollar books and starter sets when a new edition drops.

 insaniak wrote:
That's for the digital edition, not the print version.

Hrm, I thought they'd use the same file for both, but if not then the Rules hardback booklet would be even easier for them to make, just a case of exporting the Rules chapter and various extras, doing a preface, two minutes scaling to a new paper size, if that, and then to the printers. Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that GW is having issues retaining their customers. Every introductory product seems to be priced higher and higher so that new people getting in will give GW the most money possible before they quit.

Wait until you see the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook next year:
English only, mail order only, for the impulse buy price of 100$ (hardcover 150$, limited edition 300$).

 Kroothawk wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
I'm becoming more and more convinced that GW is having issues retaining their customers. Every introductory product seems to be priced higher and higher so that new people getting in will give GW the most money possible before they quit.

Wait until you see the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook next year:
English only, mail order only, for the impulse buy price of 100$ (hardcover 150$, limited edition 300$).

Sold out in one month.

As for the argument that this book is premium for collectors... Does not make much sense... this was supposed to be a smaller version of the original in order to be more practical and user friendly to who has to carry the damn thing... not something to be on your book shelf accumulating dust.

wufai wrote:
Q: $50 for a Hardback rulebook? Who would buy these over the softback?
A: There are at least 1500 peole who would buy the Mini Hardback, Those willing to drop $300 on the Limited Edition Apoc Set would find their Apoc rulebook to be the same size and thickness of this Mini 40K Hardback. There are also countless people who have different perception of money than naysayers on this forum.

Except those 1500 people probably already bought the special-edition full rulebook. And if they missed those they already bought the full standard rulebook. This waste of trees has nothing to offer that kind of dedicated collector, unless you're talking about a tiny minority that must compulsively buy every single thing GW publishes.

puree wrote:

If this was true, there should be companies selling equivalent products for fraction of the cost GW does: there are not,

lse builds a Stug.

...selling at a lower price doesn't mean you sell much more, and it certainly doesn't mean you maximise profit. This is a niche hobby, and it is fairly price inelastic. It could take years of selling cheap to build up enough momentum to start to be noticed, not really investor friendly. The other companies who are already in the business are still minnows compared to GW, that may change over time, but it has and will take a long time, and then you will probably just see that new big fish with similar high prices as GW - companies exist to maximise profit.

Hasegawa, Trumpeter and Dragon are working in a mature market, populated by older collectors, and mostly produce in China. Their costs are probably a fifth of what GW's are. In fact, do to any model forum and you'll hear endless complaints about how people like Trumpeter essentially make up a lot of their designs. It's not an entirely different market, but it;s different enough that comparisons aren't particularly illuminating.

Many of your points about GW overcharging might well be reasonable - but if you talk guff about "a sprue costing £2 or a book costing £5" well, as the other poster said, you might as well pull figures out of your backside. It's Noddy economics and undermines your whole argument.

Anyone with a C grade GCSE in Food Tech will know that the cost of amortising equipment and moulds, or originating a book with repro, means that the cost of producing an item is very different the run-on cost. Even if the run-on cost isn't a fantasy pulled from a backside.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Many of your points about GW overcharging might well be reasonable - but if you talk guff about "a sprue costing £2 or a book costing £5" well, as the other poster said, you might as well pull figures out of your backside. It's Noddy economics and undermines your whole argument.

Anyone with a C grade GCSE in Food Tech will know that the cost of amortising equipment and moulds, or originating a book with repro, means that the cost of producing an item is very different the run-on cost. Even if the run-on cost isn't a fantasy pulled from a backside.

As the comments the "other poster" said refer to things I said, I can only assume you were referring to me, but somehow thought you were cleverly circumventing AgeOfEgos warning about personal attacks.

I've agreed to step back from this thread, but I have recalled where I got the 70% idea from, so will keep this short and sweet.

It was GW themselves!

In their financial reports, their cost of sales (which is essentially just the cost of production in their case as they're so vertically integrated) is consistently around a quarter to a third of their revenue.

So again, not a number I pulled out of my backside, their gross margin on sales is indeed around 70-75%. Now, Dark Vengeance could be an exception, but it is entirely reasonable to assume it has a cost to produce of ~£15 using this info and reverse engineering the RRP. Making my estimates of price per sprue, rulebook etc, not "guff" but in all likelihood pretty accurate.

 Peregrine wrote:

wufai wrote:
Q: $50 for a Hardback rulebook? Who would buy these over the softback?
A: There are at least 1500 peole who would buy the Mini Hardback, Those willing to drop $300 on the Limited Edition Apoc Set would find their Apoc rulebook to be the same size and thickness of this Mini 40K Hardback. There are also countless people who have different perception of money than naysayers on this forum.

Except those 1500 people probably already bought the special-edition full rulebook. And if they missed those they already bought the full standard rulebook. This waste of trees has nothing to offer that kind of dedicated collector, unless you're talking about a tiny minority that must compulsively buy every single thing GW publishes.

I'd consider this one if I played often enough to justify it.

It does look like it will be a hell of a lot more portable than the big book--and while it might be more expensive than the mini rulebook from Dark Vengeance, at least I don't have to trawl eBay for it.

Typing "Dark Vengeance Rulebook" is trawling?

 Ahtman wrote:
Typing "Dark Vengeance Rulebook" is trawling?

Finding one for a price that is not extortionate, IMO, for what someone was going to discard anyways is.

There is a reason I'm actually glad that bits sellers are gone now. They charged anywhere from $20 to $35 for the mini-rulebooks and eBay priced them accordingly.
Plus I hate eBay, but that is another thing entirely.

$83....

feth that, seriously.
This is nothing but a poor late April Fools joke to me.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a reason I'm actually glad that bits sellers are gone now. They charged anywhere from $20 to $35 for the mini-rulebooks and eBay priced them accordingly.

Because more options and places you can get things are bad!

And bitz sellers largely are not gone. I know you said you hate eBay, but it's still full of 40k bitz. And copies of the DV rulebook.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is a reason I'm actually glad that bits sellers are gone now. They charged anywhere from $20 to $35 for the mini-rulebooks and eBay priced them accordingly.

Because more options and places you can get things are bad!

And bitz sellers largely are not gone. I know you said you hate eBay, but it's still full of 40k bitz. And copies of the DV rulebook.

Actually I was referring to the fact that the prices that they sold individual components for gave GW ideas.

Do you think that $16 for a sprue of 5 Lothern Sea Guard came out of nowhere?

I don't think GW needs to be inspired to raise prices, they just need to wake up in the morning and see the sun. Admittedly they are in the UK so that is only a few times a year, but that is enough I would think.

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't think GW needs to be inspired to raise prices, they just need to wake up in the morning and see the sun. Admittedly they are in the UK so that is only a few times a year, but that is enough I would think.

The Lothern Sea Guard components from IoB were going for $30 before the Lothern Sea Guard frames ever came out.

Now if only they'd see that people like the Dark Vengeance books and sell those as a separate product.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Now if only they'd see that people like the Dark Vengeance books and sell those as a separate product.

Surprisingly the sales figures, from what I've been able to find out, were not as large as you might think for the DV/IOB books.

There was a huge spike at the start of a new edition but past a certain point they basically just sat there, same with the character models from the boxes.

That's a good point. I did a quick search and there are 21 copies of DV available to my location that end over the next short while on eBay. That's a very slow rate of sales when you compare it to GW's yearly revenue.

I think Cincy made a good point that has not been pondered much: Who's the target demographic for this product.

1)It's not the efficiency concerned individual who wants things small and light. DV does that.

2)No limited edition, so I have a hard time thinking this is aimed at collectors (although the term can mean different things to different people, in my mind collectors go after something that has more value-added than a general release product)

3)Definitely not those who love the universe.

4)Those who, a year out, have not bought either the BRB or DV... but what's the incentive except, marginally, the price? Because it is, overall, cheaper. If you're only looking at the price tag and nothing else.

Someone who has come back after a hiatus and just wants to play with the models they already have, would be the target.

 cincydooley wrote:
I didn't realize Anyone used their big rulebooks often enough to wear them out

I Open it every game i play.. I don't have a smaller version. (I have no intrest in buying the DV then selling all the minis, I don't particularly like ebay as it is, and i have no interest in buying thee minidex off ebay either... (not saying i'm buying the hardback mini dex... but i'd probably buy it over the soft version.)

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Who's the target demographic for this product.

The only thing I can think of is "people who are just starting the game and only want the rules, but don't know that ebay exists". So, 12 year olds buying stuff in GW stores.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Who's the target demographic for this product.

The only thing I can think of is "people who are just starting the game and only want the rules, but don't know that ebay exists". So, 12 year olds buying stuff in GW stores.

But those are the target of the DV box set, aren't they? Most likely, anyway? I don't believe GW would cannibalize their own product, call me a hopeless idealist. Unless their target is "the friend that split the box with said Timmy (I loathe the expression) but got the shaft because he didn't get the rules and now Timmy won't talk to him."

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Who's the target demographic for this product.

The only thing I can think of is "people who are just starting the game and only want the rules, but don't know that ebay exists". So, 12 year olds buying stuff in GW stores.

But those are the target of the DV box set, aren't they? Most likely, anyway? I don't believe GW would cannibalize their own product, call me a hopeless idealist. Unless their target is "the friend that split the box with said Timmy (I loathe the expression) but got the shaft because he didn't get the rules and now Timmy won't talk to him."

What if you don't want to play either Marines or Chaos? Maybe you're new but you got a pretty good deal on Eldar/Tau/IG from a friend but need the rules because he quit in 4th or something?

Good point, but I still think a person savvy enough to get a good deal wouldn't feel like he or she is getting one with this.

But you definitely have a point.

I play both marines and chaos, so each of my friends buying DV and telling me they have a ton of useless models is just gravy for me.

 Deadshot wrote:
Someone who has come back after a hiatus and just wants to play with the models they already have, would be the target.

I fall into that category and I have no interest in it. I would think the DV book would work if they just want the rules, or if they want to get back in on the fluff the BRB is a much better deal. I suppose maybe if we amend it to people coming back to the hobby that have no idea of their options, that might work. The DV book is concise, portable, and cheaper whereas the BRB is slightly more expensive (then the $50 book) but comes with tons more material. It just doesn't seem worth it.