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Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Baron doesnt really give you much tbh, the only significant things are hit and run, grenades, and the trophy for rerolling ldship. Im not saying its not good, but there are drawbacks too.

You consider these things to not be much? Heck defensive and offensive grenades for a squad is the reason to put a 50 pts character into many squads. The trophy takes the chance to pass a psychic test from 72% to 92%. This is a big deal not to even mention the chance of rolling 2 sixes becomes minuscule. You also did not mention the 2++ inv save. Against unit like heldrakes, plasma+markerlights, wraith scythes, etc. this becomes extremely important. He is the tank to eliminate some of the hard counters to this unit. You also forgot stealth which improves the move+conceal from 3+++ to 2+++...not alot of advantages.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

Must dilute your eldar with those skeevy dark eldar, joking aside you have to add dark eldar troop units when we already have arguably the best troops in the game.

Dark eldar troops are very good. We may have 12" pseudo rending but they get 24" poison. Very useful against some of the high T enemies you run up against.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

If you arent a tactical failure hit and run is not a necessary tool, with the movement available to the seer council there is no way on earth you should be getting caught by anything that can tarpit your unit.

There are things faster than eldar jet bikes. This is; 2 units with 12"+ movement, FMC, and large hordes (rather they fill the board so you have nowhere to go). You can easily get cornered by multiple units acting in concert. Also the board is limited by borders. Finally hit and run is great for allowing you to engage targets you normally would not be able to. Lets say you want to kill something near wraithscythes...charge them and hit and run out the next turn then the scythes can't shoot you.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

The baron is JUMP infantry, so unless this seerstar is walking the baron will be holding you back to the tune of 2d6" per turn during the assault phase, and no turbo boosting. If the star is walking then you have already lost the game because the mobile armies of today will just pick you apart from range or ignore you all together.

Keep in mind you can always pivot around him. Move forward past him in movement then assault more back to let him tank shots in the assault phase. With understanding how it works you really only loose the turbo boost. This is not a big lose as turbo boosting wastes an expensive units abilities.

Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

without the baron you will still have (most likely - stupid random powers):

2+ save
4+ invuln
3+ cover or better
Rerollable saves

Anything long range shooting that requires the use of an invul you will most likely be getting a cover save from, most things that ignore cover dont require an invul and would be taken vs 2+ rerollable armour

Tanking wounds with the baron sounds good until he gets 1 shot by a warp spider/scatterlaser/smartmissile/ anything str 6 or better.

First you are not likely to get all of these. If you do get all of those it is unlikely you will have multiple of them. This is where the 90% chance to manifest is huge as 70% is nearly 1/3 chance to fail.
Secondly you halved your survivability against weapons that allowed cover saves (1/3 chance to fail vs 1/6, and with fortune 1/9 vs 1/36 which is 1/4 the survivability).
Third there is an entire army which can strip your cover save and shoot you with AP2 weapons...it is called Tau. That rerollable 2++ can be a huge deal to survive the 1-2 turns you need until you can get into the thick of it.
You seem think that you tank all shooting on the baron. You don't he tanks AP2/1 shots with him and LOS the AP3+ shots onto the warlocks where they will get their rerollable 2+ saves. If he saves 3 warlocks in a game he has payed for himself with points to spare. He should on average save ~6 warlocks without fortune and ~36 warlocks with fortune.

Keep in mind that if you have to you can always split the baron off and use the council without him. For a first turn 2++ he is almost worth his points even without the other incredible advantages.

I wonder how it does against nids. It's really easy to move a FMC within 12" to extend shadow of the warp to the seer council.

My 1750 list is the following:

Swarmlord
1 Guard
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
1 Doom in a pod
3 Hiveguard
2 Tervigons
20 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles with all the glands
1 biovore
Firestorm Redoubt

Honestly, with the Swarmlord in my list I don't really worry about units with a 12" range or X non-powerweapon attacks. Swarmlord would smoke them easily. The venoms would hurt, as would the rest of the list. But the seerstar would have minimal effect on my list.

Minimal effect indeed?

I would say your list poses very little threat to him in any way. Your hive guard would be gunned down before they could get into range and from there you have very little that can de-mech him. Then your ONLY threat you provide is the Zoanthropes who don't have the wait of fire to down the serpents thanks to shields and they would then be made dead by wait of fire. Doom has nothing to go for apart from council because everything is meched up and the seer council get a 2+ cover VS Dooms spirit leech. Then what can you do? 1 of your monstrous creatures would go down a turn (Included Swarmlord unless he is toughness =stupid) and those gargoyles are simply begging to be assaulted by the Council where they will all die and over ran. + Your Swarmlord should worry about the council, he is as easy to kills 5 marines to them.

Hum.. I think his idea is to throw 7 psychic scream at the eldar unit (swarmy, doom, 3 zoans, 2 tervigons) . No armor no cover, and assuming the eldar fail their psychic tests because of shadows (no reroll) it looks like a hard counter.

Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

So you are running a optimal eldar list (assuming due to you have grisly trophies) against a marine list?, no wonder why you won!. Not having a dig but I am not suprised in the slightest!. Even with the old council running over maines wasnt exactly hard.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Minimal effect indeed?

I would say your list poses very little threat to him in any way. Your hive guard would be gunned down before they could get into range and from there you have very little that can de-mech him. Then your ONLY threat you provide is the Zoanthropes who don't have the wait of fire to down the serpents thanks to shields and they would then be made dead by wait of fire. Doom has nothing to go for apart from council because everything is meched up and the seer council get a 2+ cover VS Dooms spirit leech. Then what can you do? 1 of your monstrous creatures would go down a turn (Included Swarmlord unless he is toughness =stupid) and those gargoyles are simply begging to be assaulted by the Council where they will all die and over ran. + Your Swarmlord should worry about the council, he is as easy to kills 5 marines to them.

The plan for serpent spam is to put the hive guard inside the Redoubt and, if I think I can get into range of a serpent, to disembark, cast onslaught and then run and shoot with them to take it down. I'm not going to lie, GW made wave serpents the easy mode button and it's hard not to do well when you spam them. However, with smart play I think I can play around them. The zoanthropes would keep their book powers and shoot down a serpent that shoots its shield off with str 10 ap 1 lances. Then, unless my opponent puts fire into them, they will continue until they die. Heck, in a pinch I could drop pyrovores in the rear armor and hope for at least 1 hull point. Pyrovores will destroy any squad that comes out of a vehicle. The doom will go after the star because that's about all he can do until his str gets high enough to damage vehicles. Tyranids never get overrun unless you're pretty much tabled already.

Who is I6 in the list? I am pretty sure everyone is I5 so unless I charge into terrain his warlocks will go last. Swarmlord + warpspeed is anywhere from 6 to 9 attacks (10 if charging). Hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's... after giving himself preferred enemy he should deal 80% of his attacks worth of wounds. I know they have a 4++ but bonesabers force you to reroll successful saves which means 40% of his attacks will inflict instant death if fortune is up, 60% if not. That's anywhere from 2.5 (1 extra attack, fortune up) to 6 (4 extra attacks, fortune down) dead guys before they strike.


Plus, I'm not sure how much that list was that he posted. The seerstar, the 4 waveserpents, 2 venoms and the ravager might be more than 1750.

It's a good list, don't get me wrong. Eldar/Dark Eldar are really easy to play anymore so combos like this are the ones to beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

So you are running a optimal eldar list (assuming due to you have grisly trophies) against a marine list?, no wonder why you won!. Not having a dig but I am not suprised in the slightest!. Even with the old council running over maines wasnt exactly hard.

Um, haha, yeah it was. Imagine having just a few attacks each that pattered off 3+ armor saves and then you could never run space marines down. After the initial charge, if you had the +1 WS/I warlord power, you had 10 attacks (because you always took spears), 7 hits, 6 wounds and kill 2 marines. So over the course of 5 combats you'd kill the squad. Heaven help you if they had a powerfist or they brought something like TH/SS terminators into you.

What that person is claiming is that for every combat phase for a 6 turn game they killed something. In 6 combat phases he killed a dreadnought, 4 bikers, and 40 marines. That's coming from something that has maybe 15 attacks or so, most of which don't ignore armor. It's hard to believe.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

So you are running a optimal eldar list (assuming due to you have grisly trophies) against a marine list?, no wonder why you won!. Not having a dig but I am not suprised in the slightest!. Even with the old council running over maines wasnt exactly hard.

Who said I won?

Well, I did, but only barely. At the end of the game I had a Warlock, the Farseer, the Baron, and a Jetbike left, and that Jetbike managed to grab a 4pt objective (Scouring) while he had a 3 and a 1, so I won over First Blood. He only had a Raven, two Pods, and two Sergeants left on the table.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
What that person is claiming is that for every combat phase for a 6 turn game they killed something. In 6 combat phases he killed a dreadnought, 4 bikers, and 40 marines. That's coming from something that has maybe 15 attacks or so, most of which don't ignore armor. It's hard to believe.

You do know that there are psychic powers in this game right? Such as ones that let you re-roll misses and make your opponent roll successful saves? Also you are using arbitrary numbers based on your own assumptions here; I never said they were all full strength squads. I also never said that the Council didn't shoot at them first, another assumption on your part. Even without Misfortune the Council charging kill about 4 Marines on average, and in some of them I was locked an fought again in his turn, so not sure why you find it so hard to believe. The exact count was a Dread, 3 Bikes, a Reclusiarch, and 30 Marines, that had re-rolled shots and attacks thrown at them and had to re-roll any saves that they passed.

XC18 wrote:
Hum.. I think his idea is to throw 7 psychic scream at the eldar unit (swarmy, doom, 3 zoans, 2 tervigons) . No armor no cover, and assuming the eldar fail their psychic tests because of shadows (no reroll) it looks like a hard counter.

So getting through you know, passing the psychic power, a 4+ deny the witch, then needing to hit, then rolling high on 3D6, and getting through a 2++ re-roll or 4++ re-roll.....yeah not a very hard counter. It is also a lot to assume that all 7 will be with in range to cast the power, and that enough would be there to force shadows, (which with a re-roll means it is still not unlikely that fortune might be up.)

But lets look at it.assuming fortune is down and assuming the baron is not the closest to any of the firers.

Each casting will average 0.3 wounds, so 7 castings = 2.1 wounds....then the council flies away....



As for the swarm lord why is that seer council fighting him in close combat? Furthermore if they do he will get challanged (he is a character right) by the baron, and be fighting a 2++ save....Also isn't baron like I7 or something.

Chances are morelike though that serpents and venoms will target swarmlord and take him down before he ever gets to combat.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
My 1750 list is the following:

Swarmlord
1 Guard
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
1 Doom in a pod
3 Hiveguard
2 Tervigons
20 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles with all the glands
1 biovore
Firestorm Redoubt

Honestly, with the Swarmlord in my list I don't really worry about units with a 12" range or X non-powerweapon attacks. Swarmlord would smoke them easily. The venoms would hurt, as would the rest of the list. But the seerstar would have minimal effect on my list.

Swarmlord should MELT a Seerstar. But a smart player will not assault the Swarmlord with the council. Your best move is to avoid him...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

I think you're right. Nids are the biggest difficulty for the Seerstar and Screamerstar. The expendable termagants generated by manditory Tervigons (placed strategically) can deny the council exactly what they're good at: Mobility. Most armies can't deny mobility as effectively as Nids. As I think about all the matchups that COULD be bad for either deathstar, Nids is one of the few that will give both a problem...at the compitative level though, you won't see nids as commonly as you'll run into the "good/better" matchups for these deathstars.

My question: Since you can't reroll a reroll; what do you do when fortune is active when the Swarmlord makes it into combat with them? Is it up to the player's turn it currently is to decide which reroll is used? Either Swarmlord would force a reroll of a passed invuln or the fortune would allow the reroll of a failed reroll.

roxor08 wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
My 1750 list is the following:

Swarmlord
1 Guard
3 Zoanthropes in a pod
1 Doom in a pod
3 Hiveguard
2 Tervigons
20 Gaunts
20 Gargoyles with all the glands
1 biovore
Firestorm Redoubt

Honestly, with the Swarmlord in my list I don't really worry about units with a 12" range or X non-powerweapon attacks. Swarmlord would smoke them easily. The venoms would hurt, as would the rest of the list. But the seerstar would have minimal effect on my list.

Swarmlord should MELT a Seerstar. But a smart player will not assault the Swarmlord with the council. Your best move is to avoid him...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Nids are one of the biggest problems for the star along with GK Ravens. There's a not a lot you can do about these either except hold back until something else in your army manages to deal with them.

As for the Council, I don't believe anecdotal evidence counts for anything, but I want to report from a game last night all the same, as I was incredibly impressed by my Council. My 5 Warlocks, Farseer and the Baron went through a Dreadnought, half a Bike Squad, an Assault Squad with Reclusiarch, and three Tac squads over the course of the game. Sometimes they were going through these too fast and the Baron adding Stealth became a huge boon because I lost Protect after turn 1. Yes, the most impressive thing they did was lose 3 Warlocks to double 1 Perils in the first 2 turns; there are some things Grisly Trophies can't buy

I think you're right. Nids are the biggest difficulty for the Seerstar and Screamerstar. The expendable termagants generated by manditory Tervigons (placed strategically) can deny the council exactly what they're good at: Mobility. Most armies can't deny mobility as effectively as Nids. As I think about all the matchups that COULD be bad for either deathstar, Nids is one of the few that will give both a problem...at the compitative level though, you won't see nids as commonly as you'll run into the "good/better" matchups for these deathstars.

My question: Since you can't reroll a reroll; what do you do when fortune is active when the Swarmlord makes it into combat with them? Is it up to the player's turn it currently is to decide which reroll is used? Either Swarmlord would force a reroll of a passed invuln or the fortune would allow the reroll of a failed reroll.

Or you would just pick up all the saves and roll them again. Or agree with your opponent to skip the pointless step, and reroll nothing.

The point I'm trying to make is that the seerstar is only effective within 12". They can't hop away because of the baron. That means to come within firing range of really anything in a Tyranid herd you put yourself within easy assault range.

Waveserpents are stupid good. Venoms have always been effective. I hate ravagers with a passion, haha. But I posted my list up as a situation. What if you roll up on a game where you can't use your seerstar because to do so would mean you would lose it.

what about Rune priests and their 24 inch bubble? If they mount him on a bike They can move just as easily as you can and would probably make you have a bad day.

just2fierce wrote:
what about Rune priests and their 24 inch bubble? If they mount him on a bike They can move just as easily as you can and would probably make you have a bad day.

Yeah but who runs Rune Priests on Bikes? I have literally never seen anybody do that, because Skyclaws are awful.

<=this guy plays 2 on a bike attached to SM biker squads at 1850. I know how much trouble it gives daemons and bugs. I think it would give the seerstar a hard time. The bike gives them awesome mobility and the opportunity to JAWS on turn 1 against tau, crons and tyranids.

just2fierce wrote:
<=this guy plays 2 on a bike attached to SM biker squads at 1850. I know how much trouble it gives daemons and bugs. I think it would give the seerstar a hard time. The bike gives them awesome mobility and the opportunity to JAWS on turn 1 against tau, crons and tyranids.

Don't know why I totally forgot allies here. My bad. Rune Priest with some White Scars in the new Codex could be seen around alright, so valid point.

they are relatively cheap, highly mobile, probably have 2+ save and offer really good buffs. I have been using them for a while, 2 priests, 2 razorback gh squads and I really like what they add to the army.

Well, Nids and SW can give the Seer Star trouble getting the necessary powers through, while GK Stormravens are not so often seen (at least not in our meta).

At NOVA I played a 'nid player. I have to admit I forgot about "Shadows of the Warp" until after I rushed forward with my seer squad. I had to backpedal out of range and then shoot down my opponent's flying hive tyrants.

Killing his Termigons with my jetseers was stupidly easy. I would just buff up out of range, fly up 12" shoot him with a bunch of TL shuriken cats. If it was doomed that would do ~4 wounds. Then charge in and finish it in assault, then move onto the next one.

One of them was toughness 9 at the time. Shuriken and wytchblades just don't care. He was a bit surprised when I said "Ok, now make 16 saves"

 wuestenfux wrote:
GK Stormravens are not so often seen (at least not in our meta).

GK stormravens would cause big problems.

just2fierce wrote:
they are relatively cheap, highly mobile, probably have 2+ save and offer really good buffs. I have been using them for a while, 2 priests, 2 razorback gh squads and I really like what they add to the army.

They might work for you. Go look and see how many armies like that did well at NOVA on Torrent of Fire. You can even see the win/loss ratio for SW.

Have we thought about not taking farseers with the warlock bikers? It's not a requisite in the new codex. That drops the price to 550 if you take 10 with spears. You can even split them off to other squads if you want.

First of all, you don't want 10 warlocks. That's way to many. Your only looking for a few powers. This is one of those cases where less is more.

Secondly, after playing with them all weekend long against some excellent players, while the seerStar gets exponentially better with Fortune and Prescience, its still pretty good without those powers. The trick is to know when to invert the warlocks abilities.

I've just been using them as allies and now with the new sm dex and the white scars special rules it will only get better. I'm not very worried about the win/loss percentage of SW themselves. But, for what it's worth, the top marine player(all marine codex thrown into one big basket ie- gk, sw, ba and vanilla) at the ATC was a 7 drop pods Loganwing SW list with 2 rune priests. I'm building the seer-star myself and actually just posted my first draft of the list in the army lists part here( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/549551.page) .

I was just trying to run through my head what would/will give it the hardest time. How'd you do at the Nova with it? What beat you? What changes if any would you make to your list?

just2fierce wrote:
How'd you do at the Nova with it?

It did very well. Even in the games where I did not get fortune.
The sheer flexibility, shooting, and assault power of the unit still made it worthwhile. Being able to split out and contest 4 objectives on the last turn is huge.

just2fierce wrote:
What beat you?

Time
In my game with HulkSmash I was winning hands down and time was called. If we had time for a turn 6, I would have won.
I need to learn how to get the game started faster, and not get starstruck. I kept asking him about his job, how he got into 40k, etc..

Splitting Seers
In my game with Michael Walsh I should have split out the baron and a farseer to kill a squad of kroot, and used the rest of my seers to bog down his wraiths.
I think if I had played a bit more carefully, and went second instead of first, I would have had a very good shot at that game.

just2fierce wrote:
What changes if any would you make to your list?

I'm not sold on the ravager. While it did find some exceptional uses in the games (blowing up LRBT, wave serpents, the Doom) I think I could better fit that 105 points. I might drop it for another venom w/trueborn (2 splinter cannons + grisly)

of the 6 rounds, how many did you miss on fortune? The ravager does seem a bit out of place with the rest of the army but still needed for anti-tank for LR or LRBT variants but swapping it to a 3rd venom with 3 trueborn packing blasters is almost the same thing but nets you 2 more splinter cannons and a 3rd grisly. Why no night shields on the venoms?

It sounds very much like playing the screamer council Labmouse. Friend has a large seer councl and eldar collection, might bust that out one day

just2fierce wrote:
of the 6 rounds, how many did you miss on fortune?

Out of the 8 rounds, I missed it 3 times. You will get fortune 75% of the time. Since MIke knocked me out and I missed it on my last 2 games, I did not mind. I used it as a method to learn how to play without out. You can do some good tricks even without fortune.

just2fierce wrote:
3 trueborn packing blasters is almost the same thing but nets you 2 more splinter cannons and a 3rd grisly. Why no night shields on the venoms?

They don't have the range. The ravager is great for a those times you get hammer and anvil with night fight. I see your point though.
JetSeers are really stupidly good at taking down armor. 4 serpents take down any light armor. In today's meta I'd rather go wtih more splinter cannons than blasters. Splinter weapons also work so wonderfully with doom.

Night Shields. Most of the tools that are being used on my venoms have a 30" range. When your facing broadsides in the center of the board, 30" will cover most of the board. I'm also keeping my venoms close to my seers so I can't skirt back at 30" away from targets. As such, I just don't get as much value from night shields as Deldar players who sit back and shoot.

So any tactics against these council type lists recommended?
It seems that they pose a relatively tough, immediate and ever present threat (since they are so hard to kill).
Conventional wisdom usually states to "kill everything else"
(troops especially) but there are two problems with that:

theorycrafting in a vaccum

if you do manage to kill everything else the council splits into 3/4(?) and simply contests all the hard fought objs you have captured, no?

Hence a draw is really the best result one can hope for?

 Ratius wrote:
So any tactics against these council type lists recommended?

Don't bunch up. Don't ever let them get a multi-assault off.

In my first NOVA round, my opponent let me multi-assault his riptide & farseer unit, his wave serpent, and his broadsides + buff commanders. By getting 2 penetrating hits on his wave serpent with my witch blades, he was forced to test on a 6 with his riptide and farseer who then fell off the board.

If your spread out properly, the death star will be eating only 1 unit a turn starting at turn 2 at the earliest.

Nids have the most powerful counter to the seer star.

Move a unit with shadow in the warp within 12" it then wreck the grisley trophies transport.

Next turn seer star is gelded.