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-Shrike- wrote:
I'm sorry Dogma, but a library card is free. Reading is entertainment. Therefore, some entertainment is free, and a TV/Internet does not need to come into living costs.

I never said that it did. I took issue with the notion that entertainment is not a necessity, as it plainly is. I mean, I even said that cable TV was not a necessity.

 dogma wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
I'm sorry Dogma, but a library card is free. Reading is entertainment. Therefore, some entertainment is free, and a TV/Internet does not need to come into living costs.

I never said that it did. I took issue with the notion that entertainment is not a necessity, as it plainly is. I mean, I even said that cable TV was not a necessity.

But cellphones are!


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 azazel the cat wrote:
You're either trolling or have become a complete idiot; either way I'll pander here:

-You fly planes and talk down about post-secondary education.

Can you point me to the post where I did that? I believe you're confusing me with someone else in this thread.

-The planes you fly were designed as a byproduct of a massive push for post-secondary education.

And that's just absurd. We were in the business of fighting wars via air power long before anybody started making the push for every American to go to college.

-The people who gained a post-secondary education were the ones who designed the planes that you fly.

A useful post-secondary education. They weren't designed by history and English majors.

In other words, it is very ironic that you hold such a negative position towards university, considering without such emphasis on universities in the past, your profession basically wouldn't exist and you'd be asking for a raise up to $15 per hour right now.

Well, you've got a point there. It's incredibly competitive to wind up getting aviation out of either the Academy or OCS. From there, it's incredibly competitive to get jets. From jets, it was (at the time) incredibly competitive to get Super Hornets over EA-6Bs or S-3s. But you've got a point. Without "such emphasis on universities in the past," people who fething land jets on aircraft carriers would be minimum wage earners. Because, really, all that separates them from you is a lucky break, right? You totally could've done something like that, if only it hadn't been for all those basketweaving classes or whatever.


But I think you knew all this from the first post I made, and instead have done that thing you do almost every time, wherein you play dumb whenever someone calls you on your foolishness.

 Seaward wrote:
A useful post-secondary education. They weren't designed by history and English majors.

Whilst the knowledge taught in such courses may not be directly useful to a lot of jobs, it is the skills learned which count for the value of the education received rather than, particularly, the subject studied. There are plenty of degrees which do not tie in directly with jobs but the people who undertake them are more employable, generally, in higher level roles than those who did not attend university.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Whilst the knowledge taught in such courses may not be directly useful to a lot of jobs, it is the skills learned which count for the value of the education received rather than, particularly, the subject studied. There are plenty of degrees which do not tie in directly with jobs but the people who undertake them are more employable, generally, in higher level roles than those who did not attend university.

I understand that's what we liberal arts majors tell ourselves, but it quite simply isn't true. When I got out and wasn't getting that delicious Navy money anymore, I tried to make my history degree as appealing as possible when I was sending resumes around. Just like the thousands of other people out there with worthless BAs. I certainly wasn't hired for it.

Or...well, I'll let The Onion explain.

Company Immediately Calls Job Applicant Upon Seeing 'B.A. In Communications' On Résumé

20$ is a very low in my country Norway. I would expect most people working at restaurants earn at least that or more likely 22$ or more. I have the past 2 years without much education earned about 27$ per hour and would be disappointed with anything less.

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Whilst the knowledge taught in such courses may not be directly useful to a lot of jobs, it is the skills learned which count for the value of the education received rather than, particularly, the subject studied. There are plenty of degrees which do not tie in directly with jobs but the people who undertake them are more employable, generally, in higher level roles than those who did not attend university.

I understand that's what we liberal arts majors tell ourselves, but it quite simply isn't true. When I got out and wasn't getting that delicious Navy money anymore, I tried to make my history degree as appealing as possible when I was sending resumes around. Just like the thousands of other people out there with worthless BAs. I certainly wasn't hired for it.

Or...well, I'll let The Onion explain.

Company Immediately Calls Job Applicant Upon Seeing 'B.A. In Communications' On Résumé

Do we really need a STEM vs. Liberal Arts debate? It reminds me of the "Mommy Wars" and "Generational Wars" stuff. Just pointless.

 Seaward wrote:
I understand that's what we liberal arts majors tell ourselves

Speak for yourself, I have two masters in engineering

but it quite simply isn't true. When I got out and wasn't getting that delicious Navy money anymore, I tried to make my history degree as appealing as possible when I was sending resumes around. Just like the thousands of other people out there with worthless BAs. I certainly wasn't hired for it.

There are certainly a lot of people with degrees out there, that does not invalidate the point that demonstrating you are capable of working to a higher level of competence by obtaining a degree does make you, generally, more employable for some types of jobs. The ammount of degree holders out there has had an affect on the entry requirements for a lot of jobs; there are now plenty who would, 15-20 years ago, have taken on someone straight from highschool who now require you to have a degree. Some of that will be the number of people with them increasing, some of it will be the increasing demands and targets etc that those roles have.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
There are certainly a lot of people with degrees out there, that does not invalidate the point that demonstrating you are capable of working to a higher level of competence by obtaining a degree does make you, generally, more employable for some types of jobs. The ammount of degree holders out there has had an affect on the entry requirements for a lot of jobs; there are now plenty who would, 15-20 years ago, have taken on someone straight from highschool who now require you to have a degree. Some of that will be the number of people with them increasing, some of it will be the increasing demands and targets etc that those roles have.

and some of it is how easy it is for a HR program (or unpaid intern) to weed out non-degree vs. degree apllicants.

 Easy E wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Whilst the knowledge taught in such courses may not be directly useful to a lot of jobs, it is the skills learned which count for the value of the education received rather than, particularly, the subject studied. There are plenty of degrees which do not tie in directly with jobs but the people who undertake them are more employable, generally, in higher level roles than those who did not attend university.

I understand that's what we liberal arts majors tell ourselves, but it quite simply isn't true. When I got out and wasn't getting that delicious Navy money anymore, I tried to make my history degree as appealing as possible when I was sending resumes around. Just like the thousands of other people out there with worthless BAs. I certainly wasn't hired for it.

Or...well, I'll let The Onion explain.

Company Immediately Calls Job Applicant Upon Seeing 'B.A. In Communications' On Résumé

Do we really need a STEM vs. Liberal Arts debate? It reminds me of the "Mommy Wars" and "Generational Wars" stuff. Just pointless.

Well starting salaries for Chemical Engineering students is $80,000 at one institution. Art History...not so much...
Amazingly my boy is now a Chemical Engineering student...

Baxx wrote:
20$ is a very low in my country Norway. I would expect most people working at restaurants earn at least that or more likely 22$ or more. I have the past 2 years without much education earned about 27$ per hour and would be disappointed with anything less.

You say that, but I have to consider the value of your currency, the pricing structure of everyday goods in Norway,etc.

Also, one has to consider what you pay in taxes, and what you get in return? I mean, does the average Norwegian get free health care? what about your utilities, what do they cost? According to XE.com 1 USD is worth about 6.09 NOKs. This should also give people an idea that for the same level of "spending power" in Norway, you'd necessarily need more money.

What do you pay in taxes?

Baxx wrote:
What do you pay in taxes?

If I'm lucky? The government pays me back. This past year I got 1600 dollars returned to me from the State of Ohio and the US Federal Government, my local city took 300 dollars from me.

Note: This is from a single taxpayer with no dependents that makes a little more than what these fast food workers are asking to have their minimum wages raised to. Also I got a chunk back from the federal government because I could write off chunks of my education. Next year I expect 250 from the state and 500 from the Federal government (if I'm lucky)

Baxx wrote:
What do you pay in taxes?

Right now I pay myself 12$/hour, I only declare 35 hours a week and end up with 460$ bi-weekly, net. So Gross is 840$, net is 460$, I pay about 45% taxes. It's not all income taxes, though, as a wee bit goes to mandated UI, Provincial retirement fund (which should be bankrupt by the time I get to the age where I'd need it)

Quebec workers pay taxes to both their provincial government and federal government. Last time I checked, we were the only province to do so, it might have changed in the last few years, so don't hold me to that.

That money doesn't go very far... I do hope to find a job in a high school to supplement that.


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Oh, and since we have a little old lady doing the taxes for us... I rarely get anything back. When I did them on my own I might get a few hundreds from each government back come tax time.

 Frazzled wrote:
You're just being a capitalist running dog. All wages must be raised for all oppressed workers. For too long have the 1%ers kept their foot on the neck of the American Worker. RIse up and take back whats yours you Patriots!

I thought oppressed workers lived in India, Vietnam, China, Indonesia, and Mylamar making shoes, socks, and hoodies for the American Middle Class?

 dogma wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

entertainment is not a necessity... you highlight yourself the complete disconnect that most people have between NEEDS (food, water, shelter, air, things nescessary to stay alive) and wants (everything else needed to increase one's enjoyment of life, but not nescessary at all)

Needs are predicated upon wants. For example, a person needs food, water, and shelter only because they want to stay alive. If you want to both stay alive, and be a functional member of society, then you also need to be sane. In order to be achieve sanity, or remain sane, you must be entertained. As most people want to be functional members of society, and most Western societies tend to be inclusive, entertainment can be classified as a necessity. That is, a thing which is necessary for the functioning of modern, Western societies.

 easysauce wrote:

most often I see things like people complaining they cannot keep up with car payments... againa car is not a need, it is a luxury... the bus/subway/bike/ect will get you there much cheaper

There are many places in the US in which not owning a car either makes employment impossible, or significantly diminishes one's employment prospects.

I mean, I'm from one of the largest metropolitan areas in the nation and one of the first questions I was asked in post-collegiate interviews was "How do you intend to get to work?", often quickly followed by "I'm sorry, if you don't have a car we can't hire you."

you dont know what a "need" is at all... they are not predicated upon wants.... they are NEEDS,
wants are predicated on needs, not the other way around...

people do not need food/water/shelter because they want to stay alive... they need those things regardless of their wants... even if they want to die, they still need food/water/shelter.

that is so preposterous, and then you go on to say how entertainment is a need, which is most certainly is not, and I already explained how an ABUNDANCE of high class entertainement, full net acces, every book ever written, and lots of DVDs/movies/music is available for FREE from your local library.

most community halls also offer free soccer/baseball/ect programs

if your sanity is so precrious you cannot maintain it without your own personal cable TV, then it is a sad state of affairs you live in.

you NEED food to live, you need to live, want doesnt factor into it. I had plenty of jobs, where they "required" a car, where i just said I had a car, and took the bus to work.

but what would I know?

Im just a guy who started off on minimum wage, and worked my way up from there.

not like I have any experiance being dirt poor or anything.

maybe all that awesome free entertainment from the library i enjoyed for all those years wasnt "real" entertainment, and I just went insane.





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 azazel the cat wrote:
You're either trolling or have become a complete idiot; either way I'll pander here:

quite insulting, you should adhere to a higher standard then insulting someone or accusing them of trolling when they OBS are not.

I needs me to disco!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Baxx wrote:
What do you pay in taxes?

Right now I pay myself 12$/hour, I only declare 35 hours a week and end up with 460$ bi-weekly, net. So Gross is 840$, net is 460$, I pay about 45% taxes. It's not all income taxes, though, as a wee bit goes to mandated UI, Provincial retirement fund (which should be bankrupt by the time I get to the age where I'd need it)

Quebec workers pay taxes to both their provincial government and federal government. Last time I checked, we were the only province to do so, it might have changed in the last few years, so don't hold me to that.

That money doesn't go very far... I do hope to find a job in a high school to supplement that.


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Oh, and since we have a little old lady doing the taxes for us... I rarely get anything back. When I did them on my own I might get a few hundreds from each government back come tax time.

Something's awfully wrong with those numbers, or you are in some sort of special bracket I never want to set foot in. 12$/Hour, 35 hours a week should get you a taxation rate of 16% prov, 15% fed. Montreal's municipal taxes only go as high as 13% for appartment buildings (I looked at Rosemont, assuming it would be the highest).

Crazy frenchies

Baxx wrote:
20$ is a very low in my country Norway. I would expect most people working at restaurants earn at least that or more likely 22$ or more. I have the past 2 years without much education earned about 27$ per hour and would be disappointed with anything less.

How much does a gallon of milk or a gallon of gas (petrol) cost in Norway?

 Spacemanvic wrote:


How much does a gallon of milk or a gallon of gas (petrol) cost in Norway?

according to a search i did, its around 9.63 per gallon (in USD), but apparently with their tax structures, the additional funds coming from that fuel cost goes into other services available to citizens.


http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2013-02-13/highest-cheapest-gas-prices-by-country.html#slide3

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:


How much does a gallon of milk or a gallon of gas (petrol) cost in Norway?

according to a search i did, its around 9.63 per gallon (in USD), but apparently with their tax structures, the additional funds coming from that fuel cost goes into other services available to citizens.


http://www.bloomberg.com/slideshow/2013-02-13/highest-cheapest-gas-prices-by-country.html#slide3

And I think a gallon of milk comes out to about $11.75 USD.

Yeah, like I said, there are differences between conversion rates as well as taxation to consider...

I'm not saying Norwegian money has less value than the USD, or GBP, it's just that comparing what a person makes in one country compared to another isn't really the best argument to make.

 cincydooley wrote:
But they're quasi-celebrities that get paid to be on those shows. That's what teenagers see, sadly, and not those difficulties.

That doesn't make the show repugnant, just the celebrity culture that surrounds it.

When I was in highschool they showed us a documentary about a girl who'd had a kid, and how her life got put on hold and she dropped out of school to deal with constant nappy changes and a crying baby. It was a pretty effective means of discouraging teen pregnancy, and largely no different to that Teen Moms show.


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-Shrike- wrote:
I'm sorry Dogma, but a library card is free. Reading is entertainment. Therefore, some entertainment is free, and a TV/Internet does not need to come into living costs.

Seriously, you live in one of the richest countries on earth, and are engaging in a debate about whether working people should be paid enough to be able to afford a tv. Incredible.

I do believe in gas in Europe. They pay by the Liter while we pay for by the gallon. So a gallon to us is $4 but to them a liter is $4

Baxx wrote:
20$ is a very low in my country Norway. I would expect most people working at restaurants earn at least that or more likely 22$ or more. I have the past 2 years without much education earned about 27$ per hour and would be disappointed with anything less.

Are you talking in krone or euro or converting to USD? Because in krone that's a very low number.

 Jihadin wrote:
I do believe in gas in Europe. They pay by the Liter while we pay for by the gallon. So a gallon to us is $4 but to them a liter is $4

yep, which also explains why its so fething expensive to get fuel over there.... The one thing they did right, IMO, at least in Germany where I was, diesel was cheaper at the pump than the regular stuff (its too bad i didnt have my diesel jetta until i was back in the states)

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I'm not saying Norwegian money has less value than the USD, or GBP, it's just that comparing what a person makes in one country compared to another isn't really the best argument to make.

There's a thing called purchasing power parity which does it, actually. Basically they take a basket of goods that more or less represents what the average consumer buys, and sees how much it costs in each country.

 sebster wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I'm not saying Norwegian money has less value than the USD, or GBP, it's just that comparing what a person makes in one country compared to another isn't really the best argument to make.

There's a thing called purchasing power parity which does it, actually. Basically they take a basket of goods that more or less represents what the average consumer buys, and sees how much it costs in each country.

Yeah, and Norway is about 44% higher then the US I believe. And Norway (well all of those countries) doesn't have a national minimum wage.

 djones520 wrote:
Yeah, and Norway is about 44% higher then the US I believe. And Norway (well all of those countries) doesn't have a national minimum wage.

Yeah, the cost of goods in krone is about 8 or 9 times what it is in USD, which as about a 50% increase over the direct exchange rate. Basically, if you were earning $10 in the US then you'd need to earn about 90krn to have the same living standard.

Well, more or less, as then there'd be healthcare and stuff like that which would be covered in Norway, but not in the US, but the rate above is close enough for government work.


And yeah, there's no minimum wage in Norway, as powerful unions negotiate for each industry. I'm not sure you guys would be willing to let that happen in the US

Unions had their hay day, and their on their way out. From what I just read, it seems like that in Europe as well. Even some of the more unionized countries are seeing drastic drops.