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I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

DogofWar1 wrote:
So does anyone know if the costs of bikes? Are they more in line with CSM or DA, or what? Rumors said they were four points cheaper than current, but I assume that's per bike. What about the base cost?

Have people started receiving codexes yet? It's going to be hard to tell if the rumours are correct till people have them in hand, I've been told mine should arrive Friday at the latest.

I was wondering if someone had maybe seen something from 40k radio with hard numbers, or at least hard analogies from which numbers could be inferred.

 davou wrote:
bikes are down to 84* percent of their original cost.

Is that for individual bike costs, or for base cost for the unit, or both? If for individual bike costs that's in line with what 40k radio was saying, but they didn't mention anything for base unit cost, and that would place the cost approximately 5 points above their CSM cousins for the base three bikes.

DogofWar1 wrote:
I was wondering if someone had maybe seen something from 40k radio with hard numbers, or at least hard analogies from which numbers could be inferred.

 davou wrote:
bikes are down to 84* percent of their original cost.

Is that for individual bike costs, or for base cost for the unit, or both? If for individual bike costs that's in line with what 40k radio was saying, but they didn't mention anything for base unit cost, and that would place the cost approximately 5 points above their CSM cousins for the base three bikes.

I'm guessing base cost as vet sergeant is an upgrade again now rather than default.

In case you guys haven't been following BoK (shame on you)

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/08/30/network-news-space-marine-codex-samples/

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.

 Lobukia wrote:
This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.

I'm a little puzzled as to what makes it so surprising. It's not that many years ago that GW used to offer army boxes for each new 40K and WHFB release. They generally weren't massive savings, but they were there.

And Battleforces have been around for decades now, and with the exception of the Guard one in 4th edition have always offered a reasonable (and in some cases rather significant) discount.


The non-discounted one-click bundles that GW have been offering of late are certainly ridiculous, but they're not, and never have been, the only way GW offers bundle deals.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So, a little something I noticed, but has anyone else realized that the Centurion looks like something the Squats would have made?

Seriously, it looks like a squat trying to disguise himself as a space marine. Just look at the pictures and tell me I'm lying.

Squat ninjas! (Hmm. Maybe Dakka needs a Squat for its ninja emoticon?)

I said a month ago that I could see a 5-man sternguard going for $50 if it included all the options in multiple quantities. Glad to see I was spot on. Actually, I believe they were one combi- less for each gun than I was anticipating. That kit is definitely meant to be bought alongside a tactical box for all the stuff it comes with: combine them, and you'll have a fantastic set of 15 models. Also rejoice that you won't have to buy anymore FC upgrade packs for all those combis. The amount of stuff you get, by GW standards, makes it worth the $50. Vanguard prices are okay too. Centurions and the tank prices are high though...$60 for centurions (still ugly as sin) and same price for this tank as a whirlwind would have been the right call.

The new chaplain model looks awesome, kinda frustrated its tagged with a command squad and razorback. Otherwise all the models look good.

Just out of curiosity, how old was the old tactical squad kit?

 R3YNO wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how old was the old tactical squad kit?

The models were originally made for 3rd edition, resprued with a new accessory sprue at the start of 4th, and then the accessory sprue upgraded with the start of 5th.

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

Add the rulebooks and we are at almost 300€ (or a bit less if you get further discounts) for a new player. How GW wishes to attract new players with that pricing policy is beyond me.
Actively promoting small scale entry level games (40k in 40 minutes was great for example) and offering affordable (that is, 50$) starter sets like Privateer Press does would be an option
but apparently this is currently not desired by GW.

 ductvader wrote:
In case you guys haven't been following BoK (shame on you)
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/08/30/network-news-space-marine-codex-samples/

Nice, thanks. But - anyone else notice the problem with "Chaplain Cassius"? He's looking a little blue.

(added) and "Chief Librarian Tigurius", and the "Honour Guard with Chapter Banner" - that bannerpole looks suspiciously bereft of cloth. Oh, dear.

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.

Makumba wrote:

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod2220002a
The Strike Force has none of those models you listed.

i might get that strikeforce. Just because its a deal. I really dont care about the Dread in there but thats about it (far as i know anyway) thats kinda pointless.

I'm trying to decide WHAT is bad about the Centurion models that is turning all of us off. I agree there are some things that just don't seem right about them, even though this is 40k and the Imperium has any right to make their armor look like anything they want.

I'll list off some possibilities, and let me know if any of these ring true to you all:

1) Perhaps the fact that they aren't unique to a particular chapter alone makes them feel like they are far too common, when these sorts of things should seem so specialized that they're hardly seen in the 40k universe, realistically

2) The shoulders actually appear too smooth for the harder edged look of the rest of them, clashing in a bad way

3) Their utility is not immediately clear


About these - #1 is a lore thing, for those of us familiar, only. It's something that can get under our skin perhaps, but perhaps we should realize that no matter what way you cut it, these things WILL be super rare. So there is that.

#2 makes sense lore-wise, given the Astartes' penchant for taking super special care of their equipment, so giving it a nice sheen and smoothness makes some sense. However, this is a practice we're not used to seeing them ever bother with - too much attention to the aesthetic. But then again, see #1 - they're super rare. As for the actual aesthetic of what we're seeing with the curved shoulders, it does clash with the rest - but as others have pointed out they CAN be modified rather easily, to be made to mesh with the rest of the design. I'd love to see such conversions. It's not the worst offense GW could have made, really.

#3 - Their utility between the terminators and the dreadnaughts does exist for sure on the tabletop, i'd have to say - but not at a glance. It's a choice between these and devastators for the ranged options, since they serve the same exact purpose, only tweaked differently in terms of what you specifically get for the points for such a long ranged role. Not an unwelcome idea, but we're just not used to it.

All that being said, I don't see what people are talking about with the helmets - plus the kit comes with some great heads. Also, when it comes to bashing fortifications that are hard to get to, these guys are literally made for them; I don't see the problem with them in that capacity.

So it's just the idea behind them and the aesthetic that's a bit hard for us to get behind them, I'd have to say. That being said, most everyone seems to like them better the more and more they see them, which means that *really*, it's not that we hate them, just alien to what we've ever liked before. So it just takes some thinking about it, but yeah - I think they actually get a thumbs up from me, and that will stand the test of time.

 Wilytank wrote:



http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod2220002a
The Strike Force has none of those models you listed.

Seems like we have a different one for sale here . Still no marine army uses assault space marines or dreadnoughts . Honor guards are also much worse then sternguard.

 ductvader wrote:
In case you guys haven't been following BoK (shame on you)

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/08/30/network-news-space-marine-codex-samples/

Sorry, but Dakkites don't.

I actually think the aesthetic of the Centurion's is fine, especially when you see the art for them. The problem I have is the pose that the models are in - they just look as if they're standing there kinda bored. I know it'd be difficult with such a bulky model, but I think more dynamic posing would have helped these a lot.

people hate the centurions because theyre basically baby dreadnoughts. Looking at their legs you wonder how the crap they move (which makes me think theyre SNP) because theyre so bulky and thick.

Personally i dont love them but i dont hate them, theyre fine.

Makumba wrote:

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

But the strike force has a whirlwind, land raider and a vindicator. Those are all bad options . That is 1 bad , 1 ok if your tailoring and 1 ok if you happen to run WS/BT and assault units. Getting stuff you don't need cheaper , doesn't make a unit choice good.

Aside from the fact that it doesn't have those, since when did 65pts Whirlwinds become bad? Last I checked most people think they are great.

I really like the way the strike force looks. It's a great box for someone starting out. Or even for people bulking out their collection. I'm buying one. It has a number of advantages over the old battle force.

5 man scout squad. Snipers this time, not the oft-maligned bolter/shotgun scouts.
2 full 10 man tac squads. Not the 1.5 tac squads from before. If you are playing marines, you need these guys.
Razorback. not a rhino, you get the options.
Assault marines. These guys might not be hyper-competitive, but they do work fine as a harassment unit. Same as the old battle force.

So that's the comparable stuff to the old force, and it's either better, or at worse the same. Then they added:

Drop pod.
Ven dread
Captain
Command squad

Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.

Dreads aren't the best these days, but hardly useless. They can also be equipped for multiple roles, making it a flexible kit for a starting army. The venerable dread is also the best looking of the dreads, so even if you field him as a normal dread, he looks cool.

Captain and Command squad. The captain was the low man on the SM HQ list in our last codex, I'm not sure how they will fare in the next. One of the big problems with the command squad was the price, and the fact that you needed to take the captain. IIRC they are now open to all HQs, so I think they will become more useful. Either way, both these sprues are chock full of bits. You could easily make 6 sternguard instead if you wanted, or just jazz up the rest of your force.

The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.

 Nevelon wrote:
(snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)

You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted

The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.

Another important point in my view is that the force is also a pretty reasonable match to the kinds of strike forces that the fluff has Marines using all the time, rather than the ultra-efficient liosts that tend to appear for tournaments.

 Flinty wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
(snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)

You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted

One problem looking at the strikeforce in a vacuum is the options for the dread. While drop podding dreads is a good tactic, you normally see it done with MM dreads or Ironclads. IIRC the options in the ven. kit are PC, AsC, and TTLC. No MM. While a drop podded assault cannon can do very unkind things to the rear armor of most tanks, against hard targets you are going to want the MM.

Unfortunately, the only place to get MM dreads is the OOP AoBR, or FW/3rd party bits. Or kit-bashing.

In my opinion, vanguard and sternguard sets are just upgrade packs that come with models(more legs) and heaps of bits, which could be used to say.. Build 2 10men sternguard or vanguard when combined with tac or assault squads respectively.

Considering the sternguard kit comes with 8 combis,HF, 2 SB, grav pistol, melta, grav rifle,plasma gun and 6 vet bolters which rounds up to 21 weapons(not including some of the other shorty weapons in the kit) you prob be using, hence 20 sternguard just from that kit.

Your sternies may not sound as flashy anymore since they will have to be donating their fluffy shoulder pads and other armor parts but come on... I thinks it's safe to say we all have those flashy leftover bits that you always wanted to use.

Although I cannot say the same for new SM players. Well they could buy the tac squad with stern and make 15 sterns. The tac squad sgt is alr kinda flashy and their kit also comes with cool bits and a combi. If they want more units, just buy that 5man tac squad set. It cost less than half the price of a tac squad for half a tac squad although without the cool bitz

 Netsurfer733 wrote:
So it's just the idea behind them and the aesthetic that's a bit hard for us to get behind them, I'd have to say. That being said, most everyone seems to like them better the more and more they see them, which means that *really*, it's not that we hate them, just alien to what we've ever liked before. So it just takes some thinking about it, but yeah - I think they actually get a thumbs up from me, and that will stand the test of time.

Your position may work for you, but not everyone. I really couldn't care less where the units fit into the space marine toolkit and I far prefer there not be a bunch of chapter specific minis with special rules. New formations I like. Things like deathcompany or ravenwing which use standard parts of the space marine forces in different ways I like. Baal predators, sanguinary guard and vengeance land speeder are the kinds of things I hate. Heck even their usage in the recent WD battle report showed them to be rock solid and scary against MEQs.

For me it is the simple fact that I hate the miniatures. They are one of the ugliest things GW has ever released, especially with those CC breaching drill arms. UGLY. It is that simple for me.

Skriker

I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.

If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...

Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.

Likewise, I have caught myself avoiding playing 40K for years, despite wanting to, because of the price, and yet in doing so, all i've really accomplished is that i've spent thousands on other games/systems, where maybe one out of three is actively played at game-shops. If I had back every $200-300 pledge I made on some pretty box 'o plastic Kickstarter I backed, but then never EVER played, painted, etc... I'd easily have two or three large WH40k armies by now.

Are their prices high versus say Mantic (who, incidentally, I work for)...? Of course they are... but even I know that I can find games of 40k anywhere, any time, in essentially any country... and sometimes that is worth a bit of a premium.

Or, God forbid, you just love the game and want to play it for fun-sake.... and buy "counts as" armies from other producers. :-)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:

AHReese wrote:
I totally agree on the criticism for the new Characters, that much for mono-posed models is ridiculous.

But people complaining about it being expensive to start a new marine army are just moaning to moan. The Strikeforce is almost 30% off retail from buying all those pieces together. Buy that from a discounter and you're saving closer to 45% off. That's without a doubt the best deal GW has put out in quite a while.

This, we finally have bundle deals that are deals! This is such a good thing, yet we whine. The % aren't quite that high in every currency, but still... discounts! from GW!!! only thing that would surprise me more would be a Christmas sale at this point.

I've gotta say... the Strike-Force literally pushed me over the edge from casual observer to, "I'm going to play WH40k". I hadn't even heard about online discounters and it still felt like a solid deal. Considering that I could have had that set for about $200-shipped, and it makes up the backbone of a proper SM army, I can't see what the problem is.

If they keep this new "Strike-Force" bundle thing going, then GW can count on me to finally flesh out my wife's "purely for hobby" Assault on Black Reach Orks, into a full army as well.

Seriously... good on them for making tempting bundles that bring their prices much more in line with the best other games out there right now.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Flinty wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
(snipped)
Drop pods work. You might argue that you should either go drop or mech, not mix them. I think hybrid list can work, and fit the theme of a number of chapters.
(snipped)

You get a drop pod and a CC dreadnought. Sorted

One problem looking at the strikeforce in a vacuum is the options for the dread. While drop podding dreads is a good tactic, you normally see it done with MM dreads or Ironclads. IIRC the options in the ven. kit are PC, AsC, and TTLC. No MM. While a drop podded assault cannon can do very unkind things to the rear armor of most tanks, against hard targets you are going to want the MM.

Unfortunately, the only place to get MM dreads is the OOP AoBR, or FW/3rd party bits. Or kit-bashing.

I know very little about the different dreads, but isnt the difference between them literally the weapons and the Ironclad is slightly beefier? Wouldnt be that hard to kitbash the venerable in the kicker kit to be an Ironclad for said droppod.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I've said this elsewhere, and I know as a brand-new player my wisdom will be taken with a grain of salt... but GW's pricing, while very high within the context of the rest of our hobby, still isn't insane by macro-"hobby" standards.

If I spend $45 on a Tactical Marine box, I might spend 10-15hrs painting them up nicely, another hour or two figuring out how I wanted them loaded out... etc...

Before even hitting a table for a single game I will have gotten as much "hobby" value out of them as I have many of the video-game I bought, and was immediately bored with.

Your anaolgy doesn't hold when you acknowledge the fact that you can get just as much hobby value out of cheaper products just as readily. The price of the tactical squad box doesn't determine how much enjoyment you get from building the kit and painting the minis. The contents determine that. The price just determines how many you can buy. A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.

Mind you, you don't have to rationalize your position to me in the end. If you are fine paying the prices as they are now then feel free to do so. I think that is the issue here overall as somehow if you don't want to pay the prices anymore you are some kind of whiner, and if you do keep paying them you are some kind of idiot. When it all depends on what your threshold is. I reached mine, even with what I make and I honestly never thought that would happen. I currently have 11 armies and some parts of a 12th (which will be hitting ebay before too long), and one of those is chaos renegades army full of forge world conversion pieces so it isn't as if I haven't spent a lot on GW in the past. Just won't be much in the future aside from the Ork, DE and SW codecies...

Skriker