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Blue is a relatively easy color to paint and it's pretty forgiving, making it an excellent choice for people new to the hobby. The chapter name "Ultramarines" tells a prospective player everything they need to know about the army and the game itself. Younger players will see the name and say, "They're not just Space Marines, they're ULTRAmarines!" Older players (or those who are a little more art savvy) will get the joke and laugh, and appreciate that 40K isn't meant to be taken that seriously.

Ultramarines also happen to be both fairly heroic and more or less generic. They're not vampires in power armor, Viking werewolves in space, brooding hooded goths with jacuzzis and DJ booths on their land speeders, or anything like that. And they're not specialized in the way that the other vanilla chapters are specialized. (For example, playing Salamanders means committing to using short-ranged flame and melta weapons. Playing Raven Guard means committing to blitz attacks, scouting, and infiltration.) This means that a player just learning the game can adjust from month to month to find the right balance (shooting vs. assault, weight of fire vs. less reliable high power single-shot weapons, etc.).

The Ultramarines are a really solid starter army, and they're forgiving in pretty much every way that matters.

 Insane Smile wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, historically, Dark Angels were the gay chapter (not a wind up, I promise) but these days it has been retconned to the fact that half of them fell to Chaos during the Heresy, but nobody outside of a select few knows this any more, so, you know,

Shhhh!

[citation needed]

Unless of course you're just continuing off the whole "Lionel Johnson" thing.

[nam voice] I was there man![/nam voice]

It was implied, but never stated. If you were going to try and argue that all the references were just coincydink though, I think we both know that the guys responsible for the names and such knocking around the studio at that time knew their literature too well for that to be the case..

Though, of course, I can't cite something that was never stated.

That was my point, actually.

I would not say it was a coincidence but I would say that choosing the names of a famously homosexual author who also wrote a famous poem called "The Dark Angel" which is primarily about resisting tempation(in general terms but there is an undercurrent to the poem which if you're unaware of Johnson's background is a bit less on the nose) leaves room for ambiguity.

I would also like to bring in that many of the people in the DA chapter where named after people in the Bible, which is against homosexuality. I am in no way trying to make a religious debate or flame just throwing my two cents.

That was more of a second edition convention, when the whole schism in the Heresy thing started.

Youngblood13 wrote:
Blue is a relatively easy color to paint and it's pretty forgiving, making it an excellent choice for people new to the hobby. The chapter name "Ultramarines" tells a prospective player everything they need to know about the army and the game itself. Younger players will see the name and say, "They're not just Space Marines, they're ULTRAmarines!" Older players (or those who are a little more art savvy) will get the joke and laugh, and appreciate that 40K isn't meant to be taken that seriously.

Ultramarines also happen to be both fairly heroic and more or less generic. They're not vampires in power armor, Viking werewolves in space, brooding hooded goths with jacuzzis and DJ booths on their land speeders, or anything like that. And they're not specialized in the way that the other vanilla chapters are specialized. (For example, playing Salamanders means committing to using short-ranged flame and melta weapons. Playing Raven Guard means committing to blitz attacks, scouting, and infiltration.) This means that a player just learning the game can adjust from month to month to find the right balance (shooting vs. assault, weight of fire vs. less reliable high power single-shot weapons, etc.).

The Ultramarines are a really solid starter army, and they're forgiving in pretty much every way that matters.

Pretty much what i was trying to get across, but without coming across as an ultrafanboy.

Well put sir!

Legion of Flame wrote:
People are annoyed because they want to buy a book on Space Marines.

Looks like we've identified your problem. You don't realize Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines because the Ultramarines... are the Codex Chapter.

Might even say they wrote the book on it.


There's a reality in 40K. The reality is that there is a Big Four. Blangels, Dangels, Spwolves, and Ultras. If you picked a favorite chapter that isn't one of those four, then you're playing as "Those Other Guys".

There's really no reason to rail against it. Each codex has its feature chapter. Codex: Space Marines, the lineal descendant of Codex: Ultramarines, is about the Ultramarines. It's just the way it is.

Like I said. Nobody whines about the Blangels, Dangels, or Spwolves getting their own books. So it's nonsense to whine about the Ultramarines getting one. Ultimately, no Chapter deserves a Codex more than any other. And GW chose four of them.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Their flaw is rigidly sticking by that silly codex. Even when Captain Uriel Ventris flipped-off the codex in order to DESTROY A TYRANID FLEET, that silly fool Calgar decided to punish them.

This is because Graham McNeill is an awful, awful writer of Space Marines. The official fluff for the Codex has always been that it is what makes the Space Marines so good, not a weakness for them.

People have been getting confused for years about the Codex. The only place it describes the Codex as "rigid" is in the part where it talks about how Chapters are supposed to be organized. 10x100 with 4 Battle Companies, 4 Reserve, 1 Vet and 1 Scout. That's it. Here's the sentence: "Most Chapters do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organization, tactical roles, or processes." It's this one sentence that has been throwing you guys for a loop for almost twenty years. The inability to distinguish that one idea, with the entire rest of the description of the Codex and how Codex Chapters like the Ultramarines approach it. What does it say about non-rigid Codex Chapters? (the very next sentence in the book, for those keeping score at home) "Many Chapters are largely organized according to the Codex, but have slight variations, such as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, for example." Hmm, what's the difference between the BA, DA and UM? Death Company, Death Wing, Ravenwing... Wait, is that the slight variations to the rigid structure it spoke of? Context. It's what's for dinner. Mind you, again for those readers at home, what is the subsection heading for the paragraphs where these sentence comes from? The Codex Chapters. Not "The Codex Astartes". Nope. Just the Codex Chapters. What's another fun sentence from there? "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely." Back to context. Do we assume that this means the rules for fighting? No, of course we don't. So why are we cherry picking sentences in that section to broad-brush and leaving other to be properly contexualized? The answer is: Well, if you've been paying attention, you're not. The reality is, the belief that the codex's military advice is restrictive means selectively ignoring everything written on the page before those two paragraphs, and everything else written about the Codex subsequently. All over one sentence taken out of context.

Of course, it really boils down to this: The Ultramarines are considered the most faithful to the Codex Astartes, and yet Calgar is described as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he carried 2nd Edition's highest strategy rating at 6. If the Ultramarines are supposedly the most faithful adherents to the Codex, but their modern commander is one of the greatest military minds to ever live, it automatically precludes any idea that the Codex Astartes could be restrictive or limited in its strategic and tactical advice by default. And it makes the idea that the Codex might have once been brilliant, but has been slowly corrupted and misinterpreted over the millenia false as well since the modern Ultramarines are still, by proclamation outside the fluff, the best warfighters in the galaxy. There's no interpretation here, the universe laid it out on the table for us. The Ultramarines are the greatest warfighters among the Space Marines, their chapter master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, and they follow the Codex Astartes while doing so. There's no wiggle room.

Most high-end DA are named after Angels IIRC, as most have the suffex -el, which IIRC from compulsary Religion classes, means connection to God and was thus common in Angel naming. Azrael, Smmael, Beliel, Balthazar, Ezekiel, Asmodai, are all Angelic names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veteran Sergeant wrote: Nobody whines about the Blangels, Dangels, or Spwolves getting their own books

You clearly haven't been here long. 6 months ago any thread with even a hint of Ultramarines, Space Marines, Codexes, new releases, codex creep and anything and everything in between, contained at least 4 rants about how there are too many marine codexes and SW/BA/DA were not different enough to warrant their own.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
There's a reality in 40K. The reality is that there is a Big Four. Blangels, Dangels, Spwolves, and Ultras. If you picked a favorite chapter that isn't one of those four, then you're playing as "Those Other Guys".

Looks like GW disagrees, given that the new Marine codex is a much more all-encompassing affair. Even has rules for each founding chapter that isn't in its own codex, as well as rules for the Black Templars.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Legion of Flame wrote:
People are annoyed because they want to buy a book on Space Marines.

Looks like we've identified your problem. You don't realize Codex: Space Marines is Codex: Ultramarines because the Ultramarines... are the Codex Chapter.

Might even say they wrote the book on it.


There's a reality in 40K. The reality is that there is a Big Four. Blangels, Dangels, Spwolves, and Ultras. If you picked a favorite chapter that isn't one of those four, then you're playing as "Those Other Guys".

There's really no reason to rail against it. Each codex has its feature chapter. Codex: Space Marines, the lineal descendant of Codex: Ultramarines, is about the Ultramarines. It's just the way it is.

Like I said. Nobody whines about the Blangels, Dangels, or Spwolves getting their own books. So it's nonsense to whine about the Ultramarines getting one. Ultimately, no Chapter deserves a Codex more than any other. And GW chose four of them.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Their flaw is rigidly sticking by that silly codex. Even when Captain Uriel Ventris flipped-off the codex in order to DESTROY A TYRANID FLEET, that silly fool Calgar decided to punish them.

This is because Graham McNeill is an awful, awful writer of Space Marines. The official fluff for the Codex has always been that it is what makes the Space Marines so good, not a weakness for them.

People have been getting confused for years about the Codex. The only place it describes the Codex as "rigid" is in the part where it talks about how Chapters are supposed to be organized. 10x100 with 4 Battle Companies, 4 Reserve, 1 Vet and 1 Scout. That's it. Here's the sentence: "Most Chapters do not stick so rigidly to the Codex patterns laid down either for organization, tactical roles, or processes." It's this one sentence that has been throwing you guys for a loop for almost twenty years. The inability to distinguish that one idea, with the entire rest of the description of the Codex and how Codex Chapters like the Ultramarines approach it. What does it say about non-rigid Codex Chapters? (the very next sentence in the book, for those keeping score at home) "Many Chapters are largely organized according to the Codex, but have slight variations, such as the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, for example." Hmm, what's the difference between the BA, DA and UM? Death Company, Death Wing, Ravenwing... Wait, is that the slight variations to the rigid structure it spoke of? Context. It's what's for dinner. Mind you, again for those readers at home, what is the subsection heading for the paragraphs where these sentence comes from? The Codex Chapters. Not "The Codex Astartes". Nope. Just the Codex Chapters. What's another fun sentence from there? "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely." Back to context. Do we assume that this means the rules for fighting? No, of course we don't. So why are we cherry picking sentences in that section to broad-brush and leaving other to be properly contexualized? The answer is: Well, if you've been paying attention, you're not. The reality is, the belief that the codex's military advice is restrictive means selectively ignoring everything written on the page before those two paragraphs, and everything else written about the Codex subsequently. All over one sentence taken out of context.

Of course, it really boils down to this: The Ultramarines are considered the most faithful to the Codex Astartes, and yet Calgar is described as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he carried 2nd Edition's highest strategy rating at 6. If the Ultramarines are supposedly the most faithful adherents to the Codex, but their modern commander is one of the greatest military minds to ever live, it automatically precludes any idea that the Codex Astartes could be restrictive or limited in its strategic and tactical advice by default. And it makes the idea that the Codex might have once been brilliant, but has been slowly corrupted and misinterpreted over the millenia false as well since the modern Ultramarines are still, by proclamation outside the fluff, the best warfighters in the galaxy. There's no interpretation here, the universe laid it out on the table for us. The Ultramarines are the greatest warfighters among the Space Marines, their chapter master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, and they follow the Codex Astartes while doing so. There's no wiggle room.

I couldn't agree more with you on the point of McNeil being a dreadful writer of marines, Storm of Iron and Fulgrim are probably the worst BL books I've ever read.

On topic though, all these things about Ultras being the best is why I dislike them. I'm not interested in reading about any organisation that is the best and is lead by the best general and has the best chain of command and best soldiers etc. It's really hard to find character in the exemplar archetype. Someone mentioned the Superman/Batman point earlier, people enjoy flawed heroes more.

If one of the other big chapters got written up to Ultramarine levels of skill people still wouldn't rage as hard at them as they do the Ultras because it's not their success people don't like, it's the fact that they go about being so successful through in a really uninteresting manner. "We win because we're by the book" will never appeal to people the same way "We win because we're ferocious/have unique aspects no one else does or whatever other reason there could be. This is why people cling to the "Codex makes them inflexible" argument, because it adds a much needed flaw to the flawless. On a more real note, Ultras have been the target of a lot of unnecessary hate since the 5th edition book, which is underlying in a lot of opinions.

That's the way I see it anyway

 stargasm wrote:

Youngblood13 wrote:
Blue is a relatively easy color to paint and it's pretty forgiving, making it an excellent choice for people new to the hobby. The chapter name "Ultramarines" tells a prospective player everything they need to know about the army and the game itself. Younger players will see the name and say, "They're not just Space Marines, they're ULTRAmarines!" Older players (or those who are a little more art savvy) will get the joke and laugh, and appreciate that 40K isn't meant to be taken that seriously.

Ultramarines also happen to be both fairly heroic and more or less generic. They're not vampires in power armor, Viking werewolves in space, brooding hooded goths with jacuzzis and DJ booths on their land speeders, or anything like that. And they're not specialized in the way that the other vanilla chapters are specialized. (For example, playing Salamanders means committing to using short-ranged flame and melta weapons. Playing Raven Guard means committing to blitz attacks, scouting, and infiltration.) This means that a player just learning the game can adjust from month to month to find the right balance (shooting vs. assault, weight of fire vs. less reliable high power single-shot weapons, etc.).

The Ultramarines are a really solid starter army, and they're forgiving in pretty much every way that matters.

Pretty much what i was trying to get across, but without coming across as an ultrafanboy.

Well put sir!

Thanks!

I'll also add that the Ultramarine shade is a pretty good color for the tabletop, too. It stands out pretty well against most backgrounds--it's dark enough to look good against lighter boards, and bright enough to stand out against darker ones. Similarly, most weapon painting schemes will make it easier to tell, at a glance, which weapons each model is carrying. Of course, the same effect can be achieved with other colors but, again, blue is very forgiving.

I guess i could tie Space Marine (video game) into this...

Leandros interprets the literal words of the codex to their narrow meaning, exhibiting the inflexible flaw people would like to see. Titus even talks to him twice about this, this was the first:

Leandros: The Codex warns about using jump packs to leap blindly into enemy fire, and for good reason.

Titus: Your days as a Novice are behind you. Why do you still interpret the codex so narrowly?

Leandros: I look to its rules for guidance.

Titus: We all do, but there are benefits to thinking for yourself, Leandros.

 Deadshot wrote:
Most high-end DA are named after Angels IIRC, as most have the suffex -el, which IIRC from compulsary Religion classes, means connection to God and was thus common in Angel naming. Azrael, Smmael, Beliel, Balthazar, Ezekiel, Asmodai, are all Angelic names.

Most are religious but not all are named after Angels. All of this is IIRC. Balthazar was one of the three wise men. Beliel and Asmodi were daemons. Ezekiel was a prophet. Azrael was the Arch Angel of either death or punishment (depending on your religion). Sammael was the Arch Angel of death in Judaism. I hope I got this information all right, but I maybe wrong.

There are several reasons why Ultras are the posters for Space Marines;

1. They don't have a planet, they have mini EMPIRE. Additionally their worlds are some of the best managed in all of the imperium. As such, the UMs have come to define what is "good" and "right" about the Imperium and what is possible in a well run group of planets.

2. Their primarch wrote the book on how Space Marines do their thing. Literally. I cannot stress this fact. All chapters barring the Space Wolves make an attempt to follow the Codex Astartes in some way, its only right that the Chapter that follows it best, Rowboat Girlyman's own Ultramarines, get some spot light. Let us not mention that the Ultramarine legion, after having been lured halfway across the galaxy to miss out on the battle of Terra were one of the few things that helped keep the Imperium functioning until everything settled down.

3. They are based around the Roman Empire, which was well know for its strict rules and rigid adherence to tactics. As such, this is awesome, and it lends them an air of tactical superiority and extreme discipline like the legions of old. Plus no one else really does the greco-roman thing.

4. Bling. UMs are far blingier than all other chapters, and rightfully so, as they are super rich and they show it. Plus there are few colors that can go well with gold as much as blue.

5. Symbols. The big U is one of the more recognizable chapter symbols. This i think had a very important role in the early game, especially when most of the art was in black in white. Most chapters are defined by their color scheme, and alot of chapters have very very similar crests (im looking at you dark angels and blood angels) and the Big U stands out, it is easily identifiable, and when drawn into black and white artwork it makes you instantly recognize which chapter you are looking at. For instance, a black and white picture of Crimson Fists and Imperial fists would not be easily definable to anyone below a master level of fluff, so you need a poster boy who is REALLY identifiable.

Well, the US Marines do call them their dress blues.

 stargasm wrote:
Ultramarines have an iconic colour scheme which is far removed from other chapters with their own Dex's. They look striking on the cover, and their regal appearence embodies what the majoity of codex following marines should be. Yeah sure other chapters are cool and all, but i can't see the bright yellow dudes having the same universal appeal as the blue and gold dudes. Same applies for the black dudes and whitedudes. Salamanders of coarse are a lovely green, but then GW already has the Dark Angels.

Its simply to do with aesthetic in terms of what will sell as the poster-boy chapter. The new dex will be far more inclusive of the other first foundings and their successors, so don't get your undies in a twist because the blue guys are on the cover.

The last codex of coarse was pretty much Codex Ultras, but i think we have moved past that.

But remember, the Ultramarines are the chapter which addhear most rigidly to the Codex Astartes, which every other chapter is based around to some extent. they are simply the vanilla, they give a good idea of what a "true" marine should be, and everyone else is a deviation of these ideals.

In short, they are a good base for begginers to identify with, they have the most 2nd foundings of any chapter, and the colour scheme is bithching and probably the most pleasing to people unfamiliar with the hobby.

Just get out Mathew .

 Sheokronath wrote:

I couldn't agree more with you on the point of McNeil being a dreadful writer of marines, Storm of Iron and Fulgrim are probably the worst BL books I've ever read.

Back off topic for a moment.

You what?

The Ventris books and Storm Of Iron I've not read, so can't comment here or there, but Fulgrim? Alongside Prospero Burns, it is the closest anything that comes out of BL gets to proper literature (which is not to call it high art, but still..)

Perhaps he doesn't write Ultramarines all that well, but Fulgrim, A Thousand Sons and Angel Exterminatus are all evidence to contrary about Marines in general. He took Perturabo, a character I saw as one dimensional, and created a complex, contradictory and sympathetic character with him. He also writes Slaanesh better than anyone I've read, starting in Fulgrim, and continuing on in AE, he gets past all the sniggering about boobies and cuts to the chase of how dark and sinister an unrelenting pursuit of ever extreme sensation would rapidly become.

Perhaps that's just me though.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Sheokronath wrote:

I couldn't agree more with you on the point of McNeil being a dreadful writer of marines, Storm of Iron and Fulgrim are probably the worst BL books I've ever read.

Back off topic for a moment.

You what?

The Ventris books and Storm Of Iron I've not read, so can't comment here or there, but Fulgrim? Alongside Prospero Burns, it is the closest anything that comes out of BL gets to proper literature (which is not to call it high art, but still..)

Perhaps he doesn't write Ultramarines all that well, but Fulgrim, A Thousand Sons and Angel Exterminatus are all evidence to contrary about Marines in general. He took Perturabo, a character I saw as one dimensional, and created a complex, contradictory and sympathetic character with him. He also writes Slaanesh better than anyone I've read, starting in Fulgrim, and continuing on in AE, he gets past all the sniggering about boobies and cuts to the chase of how dark and sinister an unrelenting pursuit of ever extreme sensation would rapidly become.

Perhaps that's just me though.

The remembrancers in Fulgrim were written well, but I really didn't think the marines were. Every time it was a marine oriented scene I just wanted it over so I could go back to seeing the sculpter and the painter.

It was a lot better than Storm of Iron, which I had to read over the course of eighteen months because I just couldn't bring myself to keep reading sometimes. Bland characters, all the revelations in the plot were just uninspired, no tension just bad.

Then again, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus which I'm told is good enough to change my opinion of ol' Graham, so I'll gladly read it when I can afford to pick it up.

 sing your life wrote:

Just get out Mathew .

gak, my cover is blown! GUILLIMAN4EVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

Angel Exterminatus was very good.
Also, I didn't like the Ultramarines until I read Know no Fear and Mark of Calth. Now I get them and they are indeed awesome.

So apparently if you even kinda support the Ultramarines people don't like you around here. Well hahahaha.

But really, remember how silly 40k actually is. The Ultramarines being so perfect, IS WHAT MAKES THEM SILLY. And really, it's kinda useful to see this perfect society and perfect chapter to help you really compare exactly how silly and different all the other chapters are.

And their biggest flaw has to be that they follow the Codex so blindingly that they don't think for themselves and thus aren't very tactically flexible at times.

It's worth bearing in mind the Marines that have been in the starter box set which are, in edition order:

1) (no boxed set)
2) Blood Angels
3) Black Templars
4) Ultramarines
5) Ultramarines
6) Dark Angels

Also, the Ultramarines started really getting into their current Greco-Roman visual identity in 5th ed, which gives them something at least a little different - before that they really *were* generic in their posterboyness. That, and the new Codex by all accounts will have a lot more on the other Chapters in the background section.
In other words, if you want to harp on about Ultramarines getting all the attention, you're about 10 years late. Welcome to the party.

Sheokronath wrote:
The remembrancers in Fulgrim were written well, but I really didn't think the marines were.

McNeill writes fairly good human characters. I remember liking his Remembrancers in A Thousand Sons too.

Really, the Horus Heresy books should have been written as much as possible from a human perspective. There were so many opportunities to make them more than just bolter porn with high page counts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Ready wrote:

Also, the Ultramarines started really getting into their current Greco-Roman visual identity in 5th ed, which gives them something at least a little different - before that they really *were* generic in their posterboyness. That, and the new Codex by all accounts will have a lot more on the other Chapters in the background section.
In other words, if you want to harp on about Ultramarines getting all the attention, you're about 10 years late. Welcome to the party.

Actually, the Roman thing with the Ultramarines goes back to Rogue Trader.


They may have gone a bit heavier with it in recent years, but it was always there.

Deadshot wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote: Nobody whines about the Blangels, Dangels, or Spwolves getting their own books

You clearly haven't been here long. 6 months ago any thread with even a hint of Ultramarines, Space Marines, Codexes, new releases, codex creep and anything and everything in between, contained at least 4 rants about how there are too many marine codexes and SW/BA/DA were not different enough to warrant their own.

You're misunderstanding me. People complain about how many codex books the Space Marines get. But nobody complains who is in them except for the Ultramarines.

But it's because a lot of players live in this fantasy land where they ignore the fact that the original Space Marine codex books were these:



If youpicked another Chapter, that's cool. There's nothing wrong with them, and the hobby is awash in Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Ultramarines, lol. But you picked "Those Other Guys".

That's why I find all the whining about the Ultramarines hilarious. It's utter nonsense to be angry about one Chapter getting a book, but find no problem with the selection of the others. Being Furry is the domain of the Spwolves. Being angry is the domain of the Blangels. Wearing emo hoodie bathrobes while riding bikes is the domain of the Dark Angels. And being a "regular" Space Marine army is the domain of the Ultramarines. If you chose another chapter, they don't have a domain. They probably fit under the Codex Astartes, which just so happens to have been written by the Primarch of the Ultramarines. There's just not enough room in the hobby for GW to make a book for everyone. And if you talk about the history of the "modern" 40K Space Marines, it is intrinsically tied to the Ultramarines.

^i'm only annoyed by how much publicity the smurfs get. Yes . Know they are the ones that basically wrote the laws but still it wouldn't be a bad thing to promote and say, "hey there are other chapters that are just as interesting". If that makes sense.

 stargasm wrote:

But remember, the Ultramarines are the chapter which addhear most rigidly to the Codex Astartes, which every other chapter is based around to some extent. they are simply the vanilla, they give a good idea of what a "true" marine should be, and everyone else is a deviation of these ideals.

Of course, in the case of the Space Wolves and Black Templars, the extent that they're based on the Codex Astartes is "none".

 Insane Smile wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Dark Angels have "their big secret."

What secret? I have no idea what you are talking about. But back to the point, blue? You think blue is the best color for SM? Imagine your country's army in that blue while in battle. I don't know about you but it would make me giggle. Black just looks really cool anywhere, and definitely cool on a 7 foot monster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroleans

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Of course, it really boils down to this: The Ultramarines are considered the most faithful to the Codex Astartes, and yet Calgar is described as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he carried 2nd Edition's highest strategy rating at 6. If the Ultramarines are supposedly the most faithful adherents to the Codex, but their modern commander is one of the greatest military minds to ever live, it automatically precludes any idea that the Codex Astartes could be restrictive or limited in its strategic and tactical advice by default. And it makes the idea that the Codex might have once been brilliant, but has been slowly corrupted and misinterpreted over the millenia false as well since the modern Ultramarines are still, by proclamation outside the fluff, the best warfighters in the galaxy. There's no interpretation here, the universe laid it out on the table for us. The Ultramarines are the greatest warfighters among the Space Marines, their chapter master is one of the greatest tacticians alive, and they follow the Codex Astartes while doing so. There's no wiggle room.

Which, ironically, is their real weakness. They're the best, and they know it. Hubris is dangerous.

 Troike wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
There's a reality in 40K. The reality is that there is a Big Four. Blangels, Dangels, Spwolves, and Ultras. If you picked a favorite chapter that isn't one of those four, then you're playing as "Those Other Guys".

Looks like GW disagrees, given that the new Marine codex is a much more all-encompassing affair. Even has rules for each founding chapter that isn't in its own codex, as well as rules for the Black Templars.

Looks like GW agrees, considering they axed the Black Templars Codex.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

2. Their primarch wrote the book on how Space Marines do their thing. Literally. I cannot stress this fact. All chapters barring the Space Wolves make an attempt to follow the Codex Astartes in some way

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If you chose another chapter, they don't have a domain. They probably fit under the Codex Astartes, which just so happens to have been written by the Primarch of the Ultramarines.

And if you picked the other Chapter that ignores the Codex Astartes completely you... follow it anyway, just because?

I have a confession to make.... I like Ultramarines. Is there a support group I should be attending?

C'mon though there are seeds of change, the new codex gives space to other key chapters, even GW on their website pics now have multiple chapters represented... that said the other chapter's can keep their grubby power fists off the book cover and box fronts!

As a side point on McNeill, whilst not threatening the Hugo's, they are a guilty pleasure and I actually thought, whilst cheesy (but hell what isn't in 40k), the first time a marine is seen in action in Nightbringer crashing through a burning door inspiring awe on the lowly troops must have brought a flicker of a smile even to those who think wearing red gloves or yellow armour is a good thing!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And if you picked the other Chapter that ignores the Codex Astartes completely you... follow it anyway, just because?

Either that or you make your own House Rules.

But the reality is, there are what, two official chapters that ignore the Codex organizational doctrines completely? Space Wolves with their Grand Companies and the Black Templars with their crusade size?

Everybody else is basically a Codex Chapter, just with minor variations. Even the ones whose players like to pretend their Chapters aren't Codex Chapters because being a Codex Chapter is some kind of weird bad word to be called in the Space Marine community. But there are only 4 books of rules for the game, because GW isn't going to publish a rule set for every Chapter in the universe. Heck, the Blood Angels don't even really need their own book, and they get one just based on past volume of sales. The BA could have been rolled into C:SM easier than the Black Templars, and had Chapter Tactics for being angry, a Death Company unit, and a special vehicle wargear for their speedy Rhinos.

If only GW would make a set of rules to be used with different chapters that would allow you to chose your rule set and make your own chapter....oh wait, they just did.

Yeah, but that's not what is being suggested.

Besides, it's just a reskin of the basic rules for that book, not actually a whole new rule set anyway. In the end, you're just playing Codex: Space Marines List, but with fierier fire. Or Codex: Space Marines List, but with gooder dirtbikes, etc. The units don't change significantly. Only the BT have anything "unique" in the book if you choose their rules. Otherwise, you're just picking your favorite flavor of "Counts As" to build your list.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Heck, the Blood Angels don't even really need their own book, and they get one just based on past volume of sales. The BA could have been rolled into C:SM easier than the Black Templars, and had Chapter Tactics for being angry, a Death Company unit, and a special vehicle wargear for their speedy Rhinos.

Oooooh, why I oughta...

*puts on objective, sensible hat* Your point would apply to the Dark Angels as well, as they're roughly about as different from vanilla Marines as the Blood Angels are. While both have quite a few unique units that would have to be considered (you missed out Sanguinary Guard, jump-pack Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests, and until only very recently Stormravens), I would argue that Black Templars *should* have a more varied Codex of their own still.

Practically, the reason they don't is - apart from sales - special characters. Even if you discount any that don't have models, you have around half-a-dozen extra people you'd have to add to the vanilla book's already burgeoning special character section. That's a full dozen if you did away with both DA and BA.
Black Templars, on the other hand, only have to worry about two - and their own unique units are a lot easier to roll into existing vanilla units in terms of rules (with the possible exception of simply giving the Honour Guard a jump pack option as part of Chapter Tactics).

That all goes without saying. Some of it I said like four posts ago. The original discussion was that there's no reason to complain that the Ultramarines have the predominance in Codex: Space Marines, because Codex: Space Marines is their codex. There's a Big Four (A term I came up with, only to find that Jes Goodwin actually used it as well in an old issue of White Dwarf so it's "canon", lol). The Big Four are Blangels, Dangels, Spwolves and Ultramarines, and they have been for twenty years almost. It's okay to have picked one of "Those Other Guys". There are roughly 996 of them. But picking "Those Other Guys" means accepting that they are, indeed, those other guys.

Codex: Space Marines is a book about Marines that follow the Codex Astartes. The Codex Astartes was written by the Ultramarines Primarch, so the fluff in the book is going to be intrinsically linked to the Ultramarines. It just makes for an easier and more concise product if they keep it focused on the Ultramarines, and then mention Those Other Guys. Just like Codex: Blood Angels mentions Those Other Guys like the Flesh Eaters, or the Detroit Red Wings, and Codex: Dark Angels mentions Those Other Guys like the Consecrators, or the Angels of Absolution. The product in Codex: Space Marines is "Ultramarines". Then, because of the nature of the hobby and its endorsement of DIY and creativity, they say "Look what else you can do and use this book!"

I mean, at least this iteration of the book has some nods thrown to Those Other Guys. And it should considering how much money they are charging for it. But so long as the history of "modern" "Codex" Space Marines is tied to the Ultramarines, they're always going to be the centerpiece. From both a marketing perspective, and a writing perspective, it makes no sense to say "So here is the story of Roboute Guilliman and his book, and these guys called the Ultramarines, and then oh, hey, look, look at these other guys we haven't been talking about for the last several pages."

Ultimately, it's important to note that the only iteration of Codex: Space Marines that didn't have the Ultramarines on the cover was 3rd Edition. Which also happens to be the only one of the codex books that had almost no fluff in it, and no history of the Space Marines in it.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Heck, the Blood Angels don't even really need their own book, and they get one just based on past volume of sales. The BA could have been rolled into C:SM easier than the Black Templars, and had Chapter Tactics for being angry, a Death Company unit, and a special vehicle wargear for their speedy Rhinos.

(you missed out Sanguinary Guard, jump-pack Honour Guard, Sanguinary Priests, and until only very recently Stormravens),

Also, the Baal variants.

Oh, yeah... looks like even I forgot one too.

Veteran Sergeant - completely agree on your points about the Ultramarines. It's your flagrant disregard for the need for a separate BA Codex that I take personal umbrage to. I am duty-bound to defend its ineffective, dated honour!