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I feel like I need to re-think my heavy weapon choices for my tac squads. in the past, I didn't have any heavy support units. so, I felt like I had to include anti-armor weapons in my tac squads to make up for it (ML or LC, usually). I was never very happy with how those weapons performed, though. they either got wasted shooting at infantry or the rest of the squad twiddled their thumbs while the heavy weapon shot at a tank. combat squadding mitigated that to some extent, but still not optimal.

now that devs are a bit cheaper in the new codex and I will soon have a magnetized predator available, I'm wondering if I should replace the anti-armor weapons on my tac squads with anti-infrantry instead. plasma cannons or heavy bolters, perhaps? I feel like that's something I'm lacking at the moment. or am I better off keeping the anti-armor heavy weapons and finding my anit-infantry elsewhere? regular bolters just don't feel like that do much (I mostly play against other MEQ armies). if it makes a difference, my army will be using the salamanders' chapter tactics.

thoughts?

For what its worth, I combat squad the single tac I usually use, give them a lascannon and put them on quad gun duty.

When I drop pod tactical squads, I usually give them a plasma cannon to go with a plasma gun and combi-plasma.

No clue how the new book will change this though.

The thing to bear in mind when kitting out tacs is that on occasions where you don't want to combat-squad, you need to make sure that the unit still has synergy, so I like to go for matching weapons (PG/PC. MG/MM) or none at all. The HB gained some utility with snap-firing, PC pair well if your Special weapon is also AP2 or better.

With salamanders, flamers are the obvious choice for specials, due to being TL, but don't pair that well with most HWs, so I'd almost suggest leaving them empty and just taking the extra bolter. If you're running Vulkan, MM are good as a MM/MG/Combi-melta tac squad in a pod will wreck a tank on the drop, and pop another the next turn if they survive.

If you struggle with Anti-infantry in general, then consider a 4xHB dev squad, they are murder to any horde or xenos armies, and can put wounds on MEQ as well.

Martel732 wrote:
... When I drop pod tactical squads, I usually give them a plasma cannon to go with a plasma gun and combi-plasma. ...

how well does that work out? since the occupants count as having moved on the turn the pod lands and the plasma cannon is blast, that means it doesn't get to shoot the turn it arrives, right?

Indeed the PC would not get a shot off out of the pod since you cant snapfire blast weapons.

Honestly when it comes to heavy weapons... I've found that you have to pair them with the role of the squad.
Note that this is all in the context DA tacticals because that's where our new codex is assumed to go.

"Home" squads: these squads are those that will want to sit on an objective and, as such, are great for lascannons/PCs and also man quad guns and the like.
Furthermore you really dont need more than 5 guys here, so no need to spend points on special weapons either, keep them small,
lean and get 1-2 of them instead.

Midground squads: these are the squads that you want to head out and objective capture. As such they will want a rhino to keep their mobility.
As a result of all this the best heavy weapon may just be... none at all. Given that they are expected to be on the move almost every turn
it's somewhat useless giving them something they wont be able to use more than once unless you string them along.
However if you are set on it then a HB is the way to go here, because you at least 3 good snapshots off you can use to put down what will be in your way: other infantry.
The best special weapon here is clearly the plasmagun, as it gives the the ability to start dealing with heavier hitters.

Close squads: Finally the closeup ones, the guys u'll be outflanking with or podding in to get linebreaker early and hopefully survive long enough to do something.
The special weapons of choice here are clearly either the meltagun or flamer, depending on the role they need to fill (anti mech or anti infantry), and the heavy weapon
therefore would be the MM or HB (since sadly we dont get the heavy flamer as an option) respectivly. Here again though consider not having a heavy weapon at all
It all depends on if they are meant to survive more than one turn, because that first turn they pod in the heavy weapon is useless, so they have to survive before it's worth the cost.
Meltabombs are also a good choice here instead.

Doesn't the new codes allow tacs to take a HF, useful for sallies if drop podding

it's unclear if tacticals get the HF or not, but so far it seems unlikely.

pg 107 in the new white dwarf shows a tac squad with a HF so it might not be so unlikely

oh man that would be.. epic if true. that would definitely relieve the need of dropping mroe expensive sternguard for the anti-infantry side of things, and you get a scoring unit there to boot. That also saves a dropping dread to be more anti-vehicle/assault dread variety.

I don't consider losing a turn of heavy weapon snap fire to be a big deal. I'd rather have the plasma cannon for later turns. If they put in heavy flamer, huzzah! Flamer dude, combi-flamer sarge, and heavy flamer guy. Sounds like a plan if its legal.

hrm. some fair advice, but I'm still torn. we'll see what the new codex brings

I've had great luck with both Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannons. Heavy Bolters for a full squad, Plasma Cannons for combat squads. I've never had any luck with the ML or LC. A single LC just isn't effective against much.

Why not the MM?
Cheap weapon with the same range as the Bolters and Plasma. People like the ML, but I'd trade range for AP1 and be happy.

 minigun762 wrote:
Why not the MM?
Cheap weapon with the same range as the Bolters and Plasma. People like the ML, but I'd trade range for AP1 and be happy.

the MM falls into the same problem area as any of the other anti-armor heavies. if I'm shooting it at armor, the rest of the squad isn't doing anything useful. if I'm shooting it at infantry, it's overkill. granted, the overkill bit isn't the end of the world since the MM is free (vs a LC, say).

I guess the real question for me is "do I have enough anti-armor in my list?". assuming I do (debatable), then what's the right heavy weapon for my tac squads? they should be going after other infantry and taking/holding objectives. is it worth keeping an anti-armor heavy weapon in the squad just as deterrence or would I be better served by bringing a dedicated anti-infantry weapon like a HB or PC? besides tac squads, I don't have much anti-infantry elsewhere in my list at the moment.

If there's no HF option (I don't think there will be) my combi-Flamer/Flamer Tac Squads will very likely not take a heavy weapon at all. None of them really work with what the regular squad is doing, and since I can't get one for free anymore, I'd rather just have an extra bolter. I'll likely use those squads as combat squads and/or only take 5 marines.

When using IF chapter tactics, a Heavy Bolter might be a reasonable choice because it's good at shooting at the same type of targets a Flamer might want to hunt, but I don't feel like paying 10 points for a HB, even if it can re-roll 1s. And I definitely don't want to pay 15 points for a ML, even though the Frag Missile is good at axing the same types of targets as the Flamers.

Combi-Melta/Melta squads will still be taking a MM, and Combi-Plasma/Plasma squads will likely take a Plasma Cannon still, but I'm at a loss as to what to take for my Combi-Flamer/Flamer squads. Unless we get a HF (even though both spoilers say we won't) I think I'd rather have an extra Bolter than pay 10/15 points for a HB/ML.

 varl wrote:

I guess the real question for me is "do I have enough anti-armor in my list?". assuming I do (debatable), then what's the right heavy weapon for my tac squads? they should be going after other infantry and taking/holding objectives. is it worth keeping an anti-armor heavy weapon in the squad just as deterrence or would I be better served by bringing a dedicated anti-infantry weapon like a HB or PC? besides tac squads, I don't have much anti-infantry elsewhere in my list at the moment.

Well what do you usually do with your tac squads? Special weapons? Transport? Combat squad?
All those factors will help narrow down which heavy weapon is best.

MM are normally AT weapons but they also make good anti TEQ or MC weapons, both situations that you're not wasting your bolters (not counting T8+).

 wtwlf123 wrote:
If there's no HF option (I don't think there will be) my combi-Flamer/Flamer Tac Squads will very likely not take a heavy weapon at all. None of them really work with what the regular squad is doing, and since I can't get one for free anymore, I'd rather just have an extra bolter. I'll likely use those squads as combat squads and/or only take 5 marines.

When using IF chapter tactics, a Heavy Bolter might be a reasonable choice because it's good at shooting at the same type of targets a Flamer might want to hunt, but I don't feel like paying 10 points for a HB, even if it can re-roll 1s. And I definitely don't want to pay 15 points for a ML, even though the Frag Missile is good at axing the same types of targets as the Flamers.

Combi-Melta/Melta squads will still be taking a MM, and Combi-Plasma/Plasma squads will likely take a Plasma Cannon still, but I'm at a loss as to what to take for my Combi-Flamer/Flamer squads. Unless we get a HF (even though both spoilers say we won't) I think I'd rather have an extra Bolter than pay 10/15 points for a HB/ML.

When they were free with the squad, taking the heavy just in case was often worth giving up the bolter. Sure, you might not get much use out of it, but sometimes having a MM upfield at the right time was golden. And you still have your bolt pistol if you don't want to snap the big gun. I suspect I'll still field them out of tradition, even in highly mobile squads. But 9 bolters and a special might be a valid choice.

Oh I know. Having the free MM in the middle of the board to zone out vehicles away from objective sites was awesome. But, it was a free option to take. Now that I have to pay for the heavy weapon choice, I want it to have synergy with the firepower from the rest of the squad whenever possible. And I just don't see one that's good to take with a combi-flamer/flamer loadout that's not overcosted (10-point HB? 15-point ML? Bummer).

I guess I'm wondering if a HB could in any way be worth 10 points. Would IF tactics allowing me to re-roll 1s be close to enough to justify it? My gut says no. :-/

I'm glad you made this thread because I've been wondering about the same thing. Honestly if PCs could be snapfired I would take them, but right now I'm thinking about just breaking up my tactical squads into groups of 5 so I get twice as many characters and special weapons.

Snap firing isn't that good. Why do you care if you can snap fire?

Martel732 wrote:
Snap firing isn't that good. Why do you care if you can snap fire?

I assume because it's better than not firing at all?

I'll be looking at the possibilities of having flamer and heavy flamer (and who knows? maybe a combi-flamer too) on midground objective takers. These squads aren't really designed to go hunting anything, so melta or plasma could easily end up being a waste. But they ARE likely to face opposition from the opponent's own objective takers, and that's where having all that lovely Overwatch fire will come in handy. They don't have to worry about range either since, if you're sitting on an objective already, the opponent will probably be coming to you.

If heavy flamer became a thing, I would certainly be using that quite a bit.

Me too. But according to both major spoilers, it's not.

As a Salamander player I've found that I'm not even taking MM (or any heavy weapon for that matter) in my new lists.

Sticking a Melta/Combi-Melta or a combat squad w/Flamer/Combi-Melta seems to be how I'm running them.

The MM only firing a snap shot on arrival in a pod seems like a waste of points with how expensive upgrades became. Trying to run a Tac squad like I did in the last codex ends up costing the same amount of points.

Now, this also makes Vulkan less of an auto include since I can still TL the Comi-Melta through the standard CT.

I would like to get thoughts from other Salamander players on this as well to see how people are running their pod lists and tac squads -- especially wanting to know if people are taking any grav guns other than on Centurions.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Now, this also makes Vulkan less of an auto include since I can still TL the Comi-Melta through the standard CT.

You have this the wrong way round... CT buffs your flamers. Vulkan buffs your meltas.
I am also really sad about the heavy flamers... but oh well, it's not like Tac squads could take them before.

 Super Ready wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
Now, this also makes Vulkan less of an auto include since I can still TL the Comi-Melta through the standard CT.

You have this the wrong way round... CT buffs your flamers. Vulkan buffs your meltas.
I am also really sad about the heavy flamers... but oh well, it's not like Tac squads could take them before.

Except the part where the CT also lets you take a master-crafted weapon on Characters....

Regular melta guns and MM, yes you would need Vulkan. Combi-Meltas on Sergeants, not so much.