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I just realised that the new Tac-Marine sprue doesn't come with a Heavy Bolter option. Oo

Which I think is strangely epitomous for GW's way to handel the rules: Don't ever fix anything, just add new stuff.

But let's not make this yet another pointless whining thread.




What do you think are the biggest weaknessess of the current warhammer 40K system, and what could be ways to fix them without starting from scratch? (please no blanket statements ala "the ballancing is bad", just specific examples)

Leaving armies hanging in the lurch with edition updates requires them to use an out-of-date Codex, which often simply doesn't have the options to compete in a new edition, either because they cannot take new wargear options (as it doesn't exist in their Codex), or none of their units have new rules options that have become available, or because a core mechanic of their army was designed for a different playstyle (that may be 2 or 3 editions old now) that simply isn't as effective in the current. And then there is the points-cost variables, as older Codices tend to be pricier than newer editions, so you end up with less bang for your buck in filling your FOC slots.

You are all over the place with this posting.

The Heavy Bolter is one of those things which really does not need to be in the Tactical Marine kit.
If you want Devastators with certain loadouts, you're going to end up with some Heavy Bolters.
If you buy one of the new Sternguard kits, you're going to have a "new" pattern of Heavy Bolter.

I'm not sure why new heavy bolters would be necessary in the Tactical Marine kit.

The old tac marine one didnt have a hvy bolter......however the sternguard comes with a heavy bolter as well as a heavy flamer .
Also the devastator sprue comes with a hvy bolter. So there you go.

Yeah, the posts starts out talking about HB and then ends with a general question about what is wrong with 40k... Yikes.

I don't see where the lack of a HB in the tac squad box leads to your conclusion. The tac squad has only ever included a ML for a heavy. And for the longest time, only a flamer for a special. If you wanted a different option, you bought the devastator box and swapped things around.

The only way you'd get all the options for a tac squad in one box would be if they cut it down to 5 man in the box for the same price.

Its a shame because make my space marines look a bit dated. But with a the new grav guns and stuff there wasn't room or need for it in the updated set. As the game evolves so will the gear, which in the most part is a good because it can allow for knew tactics and play-styles.

The biggest thing for me is "look out sir" you can take as many

as you have guys in the squad, it's bs imo. I'm sorry, if you can

jump in the way of a precise sniper shot intended for someone

else, you can dodge bullets as well. It's a mechanic that

could have been good with a limit, and used only in CC,

where it actually makes some sense. Aside from that, 6th

ed rules themselves aren't terrible. Maybe making bikes

harder to hit in CC, because their hauling ass, can't think of

much else.

bobamus87 wrote:
The biggest thing for me is "look out sir" you can take as many as you have guys in the squad, it's bs imo. I'm sorry, if you can jump in the way of a precise sniper shot intended for someone else, you can dodge bullets as well. It's a mechanic that could have been good with a limit, and used only in CC, where it actually makes some sense. Aside from that, 6th ed rules themselves aren't terrible. Maybe making bikes harder to hit in CC, because their hauling ass, can't think of much else.

Ever seen what happens to a president in a movie when a shot is fired. Pig pile on the president by secret service. I imagine it is pretty similar.

Also, why would bikes be hard to hit in CC? If they are in CC they aren't moving fast any more. Other wise it would be FAR combat not close combat.

Why do I have a feeling that even if the box included a heavy bolter (despite both being an odd choice for a Tac squad and it never being in the older kits), the OP would still find some reason to whine about the box?

"Why does it have a heavy bolter when I want more of this other weapon?!"

I get that there's problems with 40k, but focus on the ACTUAL problems, let's not scour a sprue for single thing that nobody uses or wants (and in this case doesn't exist in the first place) and make some big stand on it like it is important. Because it's not and you know you are trying to make a mountain out of a cow patty.

did anybody even USE heavy bolters except the ones that were mounted on a vehicle, since they were either already there or dirt cheap to add?

All i know people either ran bolters, combi weapons, flamers, meltas, plasmas, or lascannons never heavy bolters unless it was stock and unchangable.

I think the main rules are mostly fine. Its point balancing that is the biggest issue.


People complain about flyers in general, but clearly the problem is not with Flyers themselves, but with specific flyers. Otherwise, Dark Talons and Razorsharks would be ripping up the tournament scene.

Problem Flyer 1: Heldrake.

Option 1: 200 points, weapon can fire in a 180 degree arc on the front of the model.

Option 2: 225 points, keep 360 degree arc of fire.


Problem Flyer 2: Vendetta

Option 1: 185 points. Remain the same as now.

Option 2: 160 points. lose transport capacity.


Heavy Bolter. make it a Salvo 2/4 weapon. This gives it the ability to move and fire with some non-snap shot support fire, and if it does remain stationary it gets more shots. It would be something different and worth taking.


Some other changes I would make.


Terminators. Merge Tactical and Assault Terminators into a single terminator entry. Change standard loadout to be a power weapon and Stormbolter for 30 points. Any terminator can swap PW for a PF for 5 points. They may swap PF and SB for a TH and SS for 15 points or a pair of LCs for 10 points. Any terminator can take a Clyclone Missile launcher for 25 points. Any Terminator can swap his SB for an Assault Cannon for 15 points or a HF for 5 points.

By making shooty terminators cheaper, they become more attractive. TH/SS terminators become 5 points more expensive on the flipside. And you gain the ability to mix and match Terminator types.


Chaos.

Gain the ability to take Cult Terminators as Elite choice.

Plague Terminators: 20 point upgrade per model, squad must have MoN. Lose all current wargear to gain a Combi-bolter which fires plague bolts(Poison(4+)), a Plague Scythe(poisoned(3+) AP2 two handed melee weapon), and FnP.

Rubric Terminators: 15 point upgrade per model, squad must have MoT. Keep purchased wargear. Combi-bolters gain Inferno Bolts, Invuln save is increased to 3+, Slow and Purposeful. Champion becomes a Lvl1 Psyker that can only roll on the Tzeentch discipline, Champion swaps power weapon for a Force Weapon.

Noise Terminators: 10 point upgrade per model, squad must have MoS. Keep purchased wargear. Gain +1I on top of MoS bonus. 1 in 5 may swap Combi-bolter for a Doom Siren for 20 points. Any Terminator can swap combi-bolter for a Sonic Blaster for 5 points.

World Eater Terminators: 10 point upgrade per model, squad must have MoK. Keep purchased wargear. Gain +1str, +1WS, and Fearless. may swap power weapon for a Chain Axe for 5 points(2 handed, AP4, +2str, rending melee weapon)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
did anybody even USE heavy bolters except the ones that were mounted on a vehicle, since they were either already there or dirt cheap to add?

All i know people either ran bolters, combi weapons, flamers, meltas, plasmas, or lascannons never heavy bolters unless it was stock and unchangable.

I sometimes use them. Either in a tac squad, or 2 in a dev squad paired with MLs. If you are advancing, they snapfire better then any other weapon. Against hordes who are using max unit spacing, you will hit more then with a frag. If you scatter die hates you like mine, you also get more hits in.

I keep them in a number of places that I could swap them out. A HB synergies much better with a TML on a speeder then the other options. They are cheap extra dakka on attack bikes, particuarly if the squad they are attached to are going to be gunning for troops.

There aren't many things that a HB can't put some hurt on. They might not be the best tool for the job, but they have a good weight of fire and a decent strength.

The Heavy Bolter sings praises to the Emperor in a voice that will never tire.

One local player uses a HB devastator squad along with Lysander. He insists its great. My GK Terminators aren't impressed

SoB like heavy bolters, but that's because they can make them rending.

Rending is like the magic touch. Everything becomes good with Rending

 Grey Templar wrote:
Rending is like the magic touch. Everything becomes good with Rending

Better on things with a high rate of fire. Rending HBs? Awesome. Rending MMs? meh.

Well a MM would probably have already penned anyway if a 6 was rolled, although if out of Melta range it could be useful.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well a MM would probably have already penned anyway if a 6 was rolled, although if out of Melta range it could be useful.

There I was being snarky and you have to point out it actually has a use.

<shakes fist>

Rending on a few shots is meh, its awesome when its enmassed lol.

I never faced the SoB player in my old group before he "ragequit until they get a new codex" so i am highly unfamiliar with them. How many could they field with rending upgrade?

I know the HBC on Riptides is fething sweet purely because its 12 damn shots lol. Without a buffmander i average 1-3 Rendings each time i shoot it (provided i didnt wiff the nova). I use it to ravage vehicles mainly, buffmander makes it take out even a land raider in 1 go (afterwords i just move said buffmander somewhere else lol)

The rending ability is the Act of Faith for Retributor Squads, a heavy support choice for Sisters. The squad can take up to 4 HBs, MMs, or HFs in the squad.

Their Act of Faith, when it goes off, gives all guns Rending.

DrunkPhilisoph wrote:
I just realised that the new Tac-Marine sprue doesn't come with a Heavy Bolter option. Oo

As someone already pointed out, the old Tac-Marine sprue didn't have a heavy bolter either. Not having one in the new kit doesn't mean it's "dead".

1) Get your facts straight.
2) Don't be so dramatic.

 Nevelon wrote:
If you are advancing, they snapfire better then any other weapon.

No they do not. Every weapon snapfires as well (or as badly) as every other weapon. Whether you are shooting at full BS or BS 1 makes absolutely no difference in how weapon A is relative to weapon B against target C. If A is better at full BS then A is also better at BS 1.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
If you are advancing, they snapfire better then any other weapon.

No they do not. Every weapon snapfires as well (or as badly) as every other weapon. Whether you are shooting at full BS or BS 1 makes absolutely no difference in how weapon A is relative to weapon B against target C. If A is better at full BS then A is also better at BS 1.

I believe what he means is that they have a better chance of getting at least one hit while snap firing due to their rate of fire.

They are better for snap firing statistically than say, a Missle Launcher, Lascannon or Multimelta. Those 3 would statistically achiebe 1 hit in 6 turns of consecutive snapfiring, whereas a HB would get 1 in 2 turns, thus getting you 3 hits after 6 turns of snap firing.

 Deadshot wrote:
They are better for snap firing statistically than say, a Missle Launcher, Lascannon or Multimelta.

No they are not. No weapon is better than any other weapon at snap firing.

Those 3 would statistically achiebe 1 hit in 6 turns of consecutive snapfiring, whereas a HB would get 1 in 2 turns, thus getting you 3 hits after 6 turns of snap firing.

Which is meaningless because each HB hit is less likely to kill the target than, say, a lascannon hit. You can't just look at hits in isolation, you have to consider the final result. And when you're comparing the final results of two weapons what BS you shoot them at is irrelevant.

(And yes, the HB is better than the LC at killing guardsmen with no cover when snap firing, but only because it's also better than the LC when firing at BS 4, BS 10, and any other BS you want to shoot the two guns at.)

I like heavy bolters, wish they where a little stronger.

 curran12 wrote:
The rending ability is the Act of Faith for Retributor Squads, a heavy support choice for Sisters. The squad can take up to 4 HBs, MMs, or HFs in the squad.

Their Act of Faith, when it goes off, gives all guns Rending.

that sounds awesome, and I'm looking at having a SoB attachment to my Crimson Fists so I've got an excuse to start a small army of them... eventually when their model cost comes down.

Kanluwen wrote:The Heavy Bolter is one of those things which really does not need to be in the Tactical Marine kit.

I'd one-up that. Heavy bolters don't need to be in the space marine army. Anywhere, not just tac marines. For guard it nearly makes sense because they've got terrible BS, and they've got an even worse small arm. For space marines, though, they're basically just long-range regular bolters, as far as what they're good at killing. Long range bolters are pretty pointless in an army that can be full of bolters, and has several ways of delivering them places, making the extra range of the heavy bolter less needed.

Were we back in 5th ed where foot lists were possible, or in 4th ed where foot lists were actually decent, then it would... no.. you'd still just use bolters, because foot lists being good would mean you'd have more tac marines yourself, and thus more bolters.

As it's been Warhammer: Transports for five years and counting now, well...

 Ailaros wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Heavy Bolter is one of those things which really does not need to be in the Tactical Marine kit.

I'd one-up that. Heavy bolters don't need to be in the space marine army. Anywhere, not just tac marines. For guard it nearly makes sense because they've got terrible BS, and they've got an even worse small arm. For space marines, though, they're basically just long-range regular bolters, as far as what they're good at killing. Long range bolters are pretty pointless in an army that can be full of bolters, and has several ways of delivering them places, making the extra range of the heavy bolter less needed.

Were we back in 5th ed where foot lists were possible, or in 4th ed where foot lists were actually decent, then it would... no.. you'd still just use bolters, because foot lists being good would mean you'd have more tac marines yourself, and thus more bolters.

As it's been Warhammer: Transports for five years and counting now, well...

I'd say there's one exception to that - they have a use on speeders with Typhoon missile launchers. They're the weapon choice that allows you to stay over 24" away and still shoot with both weapons.