Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ailaros wrote:

Firstly. Centurions appear to be MoN obliterators. They cost about the same for basically the same stats. Their two weapons isn't as good as the pick-any weapon, but do get a couple of options that obliterators don't. In any case, they're roughly comparable.

Oblits are good, but not straight up awesome in my book. Can centurions deepstrike? Because if they can't then they're definitely worse. In any case, the idea of deploying obliterators on the table and then walking them forward and hoping they survive is absurd. I can't imagine it would be any different for centurions.

They are very very similar to MoN Oblits.

They lack a ++ save.
They are worse in combat.
They dont have all weapons

They have ATSKNF
You can pick your weapons from the begining and fire them every turn
They can split fire
They have nightfighting
They have 2 weapons they can fire each turn


overall they are good, but not great. They compare to Devs like Oblits compare to Havocs. If you want a stationary gunline, they Meq are better, if you want things that march forward spewing fire behind T5 2+ saves the oblits/cents are better


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One of the problems goes back to the fact that the ML sucks hard. So, of course, the hurricane bolter can only be changed out to a ML!!! WTF??

ML don't suck. They're a pretty good weapon.

ML suck when you can get a lascannon for 5 more points.
ML are great when they are 10 points more than a bolter and no other viable options exist in that slot.

There is nothing wrong with Str8 Ap3, other than it is worse than Str9 Ap2 for basically the same points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
You shouldn't be able to buy Eternal Warrior. That is just annoying, in my opinion. Adding cool special rules isn't a problem, but Eternal Warrior is for the rarest and most indomitable warriors in the galaxy. Just a little grievance, but still.

I agree


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

And what is your opinion on Centurions?
Because I think that:
Dev/las => Rather have Devastators
Dev/grav => Rather have a CCS on bikes with Grav.

Heldrake...

A heldrake will roast your Devastators and Bikes while bouncing off Centurions.
Devastators also cannot move and fire(at least not well)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingCronan wrote:

Assault Terminators are largely overcosted anymore. TH/SS version went up in points, and if you play against Tau or Eldar, I'd hold off on getting those unless you really want them based on fluff/looks. They are still decent with a Land Raider, but if that Land Raider gets popped, they are as good as dead against the newer codex's.

I don't Get way everybody is hating on TH/SS Terminators nowadays. You used to see a squad in every army and now because they went up 5pts they are considered terrible and not worth taking. 200pts for 5 was a steal last dex now you pay 225 i think that is about right. Ya that is a good amount more but they are still one of the most survivable and smashy units in the game. You don't even need to have them all with TH/SS. Give two lightning claws to save your self 10points and get 8 attacks at initiative on the charge Of course Tau and Eldar can torrent them off the board but they can do that to any unit. The one thing the terminators have going for them against Tau is that they have invulnerable saves not cover saves so tau can't get rid of their 3++ so even if their LR get blown up they still have a good chance of surviving.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Hammernators are a must have in every army. I'm just trying to provide a counter point to a lot of people I see now saying they are not worth it because a squad is 25 points more. If you want some stuff stomped dead in assault they are your guys. No other unit in this book can do it as well as them... well... maybe Honor guard lol

If 6th actually valued combat units 225 for 5 would still be great. But shooting is king of 6th and a unit that has no shooting weapons and must get into combat with 2d6 change ranges isnt so great.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Quark wrote:
The Wave Serpent is one of the most expensive transports in the entire game. There is such a thing as being overpowered without being undercosted.

Think of it as one of the sturdiest and most powerful main battle tanks with an additional transport capacity that takes up no FOC slots.

Quite underpriced when you think of it like that instead of just a "transport".

They do take up an FOC slot. You cant just buy a wave serpent. You have to buy a squad that is allowed to take a wave serpent. so really add the cost of a squad in there as well. even 5 DA add a decent cost to a wave serpent and dont last very long under any kind of fire.

DA stand up just fine to bolters. Especially since they are almost guaranteed to be out at the range where the bolter gets one shot and they get two.

The number of people who claim that AP1/2 doesn't do anything against Wave Serpents is a great indicator of the severe extent to which the Wave Serpent is misunderstood by the community.

What do you mean by that? Are you going to count on an endless stream of "1"s from the Eldar player?

 Kingsley wrote:
The number of people who claim that AP1/2 doesn't do anything against Wave Serpents is a great indicator of the severe extent to which the Wave Serpent is misunderstood by the community.

Yep, if the serpent is using the shield to save AP1/2, then it's not using it as a gun, in which case it's a moderately expensive gun platform with a single TL heavy weapon and catapults/cannon at most. If it does fire the shield, it has great firepower (equal to a bit more than a quad gun as long as it has a scatter laser, less if it has a non-scatter laser turret gun), but dies as easily as another AV12 skimmer.

In my experience, the Wave Serpents don't need the shield to burn down marine lists. Or they neutralize the biggest threats and then start mopping up with the shield.

Greedy Eldar players don't make the Wave Serpent any less immune to AP1/2 when played correctly by a cagey player.

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, the Wave Serpents don't need the shield to burn down marine lists. Or they neutralize the biggest threats and then start mopping up with the shield.

Greedy Eldar players don't make the Wave Serpent any less immune to AP1/2 when played correctly by a cagey player.

But in that case, the Serpent is a pricy transport/gunship with that defensive ability, becoming effectively a harder to kill, faster Razorback for twice the price (and the current Razorback sucks).

If you're not firing the shield, the serpent is just a double-razorback.

 Daba wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, the Wave Serpents don't need the shield to burn down marine lists. Or they neutralize the biggest threats and then start mopping up with the shield.

Greedy Eldar players don't make the Wave Serpent any less immune to AP1/2 when played correctly by a cagey player.

But in that case, the Serpent is a pricy transport/gunship with that defensive ability, becoming effectively a harder to kill, faster Razorback for twice the price (and the current Razorback sucks).

If you're not firing the shield, the serpent is just a double-razorback.

Also, if they aren't firing the shield, it will be a lot easier to make them advance, meaning you get shots at their soft and supple backside. If they neither fire their shield nor advance, then fair enough, that's 600 points or so do nothing at all. I won't complain about that, either.

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, the Wave Serpents don't need the shield to burn down marine lists. Or they neutralize the biggest threats and then start mopping up with the shield.

Greedy Eldar players don't make the Wave Serpent any less immune to AP1/2 when played correctly by a cagey player.

40k is a game about pushing the advantage on a 2D plane. If you lose a model first, then you are behind and can fight back less well, which causes you to fall further behind and the slippery slope continues.

Therefore:

If you are behind, you need to take every shot you can to try and get ahead, as the longer you wait the harder this will become.

If the game is still balanced, you *need* to shoot as much as you can to try to get that little bit ahead and push that advantage into an insurmountable lead.

If you are ahead, it's very important to make sure you push this advantage and turn it into a win. You've got to take every shot you can.

40k is a game about slippery slopes and pushing your advantage in the 2D plane (the table). It is about, if you will, momentum. You need your models to provide leverage by removing enemy models.

A study showed that the first player to lose a model lost 78% of games of 40k: Edit. Webpage seems to be down at the moment. :(

Not firing the wave serpant is very bad in most cases.

Dont forget the 3+/4+ save the wave serpent will almost always have. The improved weapons, armor, and mobility over a razorback.

But yea, other than those things it is exactly like having two razorbacks.

 Reeniee wrote:
A study showed that the first player to lose a model lost 78% of games of 40k: http://www.40kscience.com/firstplayeradvantage

Not firing the wave serpant is very bad in most cases.

I don't believe this at all. The link is dead, and tournament data collected by Nikephoros and Kirby indicate that going second is usually to your advantage in tournament play.

Yeah, but with the Serpent Shields in defense mode, the non-Eldar player will almost certainly be the first one to lose a model. Even if that stat is shown to be true.

There's no extra points for tabling on turn 3 instead of turn 5.

I'd like to point out the discussion about the good & bad points of the new Space Marine Codex has turned into an Eldar rage thread.

True, but a lot of the bad points come back to comparisons to other codices.

I have a problem.

I'm writing a 1200 singles list for a tournament in a few months, and I'm stuck. I'm building a rapid attack army designed to annihilate from the first turn and from the beginning I've planned to include what I like to call SWDS', or special weapon delivery systems. They're there to kill those pesky, annoying Riptides and MC's as soon as humanly possible.

Now, candidates at first seemed obvious. Sternguard can take combi-weapons on every member, and are otherwise versatile once the first salvo is done.

Using my RG tactic of having men fire on the enemy deployment line by the end of the first movement phase it seemed like I was on to something. But I began to explore alternatives.

A Sternguard Squad with 4 combi-plasmas and a rhino costs 195 points, the same as a Command Squad with 4 plasma guns in a rhino.

The only thing the former has over the latter is the ignore cover rounds and 30'' range bolters, the latter of which is positively useless. Unless you're building a squad with more than 5 men, whats the point of taking Sternguard? Those ignores cover rounds have a very specific use and at AP5 they're of limited effectiveness against units like Firewarriors.

But then, something even easier struck. Grav Gun bikers. They always get the 3 shots that Grav provides and at the 18'' range. For 124 pts you have a unit that pumps out 9 Grav shots (at greater range than the Sternguard) giving it more firepower for less points. In addition, you get twinlinked bolters, far greater mobility and greater defensive quality. 4 T5 models with a 5+/4+ jink over 5 Marines. And they have greater SWDS qualities that are reusable.

Hell, you can attach a multi-melta attack bike for duality and you're still about 20 points cheaper.

Grav gun bikers are really nice because they can be made troops as well. Killy troops. That move fast.

How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

As long as everything is deployed in a vehicle that must enter from reserves (Ie. Drop pods) Yes you can.

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Wow I did not know you could do that. Thats interesting

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Except of course the auto-lose case of your opponent having the first turn and all of your units being in the reserve. You might have had the first turn initially and went full reserve, but he stole initiative, and you lost the game automatically. Needless to say, noone in competitive play uses anything even near full reserves these days.

 Therion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Except of course the auto-lose case of your opponent having the first turn and all of your units being in the reserve. You might have had the first turn initially and went full reserve, but he stole initiative, and you lost the game automatically. Needless to say, noone in competitive play uses anything even near full reserves these days.

It only checks game-loss for tabling at the end of a game turn, not player turn.

 Therion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Except of course the auto-lose case of your opponent having the first turn and all of your units being in the reserve. You might have had the first turn initially and went full reserve, but he stole initiative, and you lost the game automatically. Needless to say, noone in competitive play uses anything even near full reserves these days.

Except that drop pods are guaranteed to come in on your first turn.....

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Except of course the auto-lose case of your opponent having the first turn and all of your units being in the reserve. You might have had the first turn initially and went full reserve, but he stole initiative, and you lost the game automatically. Needless to say, noone in competitive play uses anything even near full reserves these days.

Except that drop pods are guaranteed to come in on your first turn.....

Drop Pods land on the enemy's turn now? My apologies then. Otherwise you don't even get to play your first turn if you have nothing on the table at the end of your enemy's first turn since game will be over.

 Therion wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sasa0mg wrote:
How much of your army has to start outside of drop pods, it can't all start off in reserve can it

If a model MUST start in reserves it, and anything inside it, doesn't count for the limit.

So yes, if your entire army is in Drop Pods or flyers you can start completely in reserves.


you are of course subject to the rule that if, at the end of any player turn, you have no models on the table you lose the game. but since half of drop pods come down turn 1 you're ok.

Except of course the auto-lose case of your opponent having the first turn and all of your units being in the reserve. You might have had the first turn initially and went full reserve, but he stole initiative, and you lost the game automatically. Needless to say, noone in competitive play uses anything even near full reserves these days.

Except that drop pods are guaranteed to come in on your first turn.....

Drop Pods land on the enemy's turn now?

Obviously not. Fortunately, as mentioned, you only count as being tabled if you have no models at the end of a GAME TURN, not a PLAYER TURN, as mentioned above. You'll always get a turn to drop.

My apologies then. I haven't seen a drop pod at tournament tables in 6 years or so so I'm a bit rusty.

IN the last codex, and in 5th, relic blade/storm shield was THE combo. Is it still viable any more? I feel like I might as well replace the halberd on my nicely converted AA/SS model to a fist or hammer for that 2x strength.

Henshini wrote:
IN the last codex, and in 5th, relic blade/storm shield was THE combo. Is it still viable any more? I feel like I might as well replace the halberd on my nicely converted AA/SS model to a fist or hammer for that 2x strength.

No.

Fundamentally, it sucks because:

A) Its very unlikely to kill outright in the first round - making it pointless
B) Most models that pose a realistic threat have a higher initiative anyway
C) If they do a Thunder Hammer with concussive is a far better choice

Henshini wrote:
IN the last codex, and in 5th, relic blade/storm shield was THE combo. Is it still viable any more? I feel like I might as well replace the halberd on my nicely converted AA/SS model to a fist or hammer for that 2x strength.

Just use it to represent the new artifact thats STR +3 and AP2. That should do the trick. A sword or a halibard, it does not matter.

In regards to the SS. That's up to you. Your trading an extra point of invuln save for an extra attack. Your mileage may vary.