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I was playing against grey knights for the first time recently (I'm fairly new to 40k and play IG). He completely destroyed me my deepstriking his librarian behind my army and then using the summoning psychic power.

Later on i was told that his librarian cant deepstrike or outflank. Is this correct? And if the librarian can do either of those, what is the best way to counter it?

He can deepstrike as he's a terminator. Though I don't think he can cast the summoning on the turn he comes in.

It's in Terminator armor so it can deepstrike. I think all of the GK units can deepstrike... not vehicles necessarily, but the infantry types surely.

He should only be able to summon one unit at a time. What did he summon behind you?

Single terminators should be pretty easy to kill with IG... just shoot a meltagun at him and he dies. Do you have an Aegis line? It'd also be pretty funny to intercept him with an Icarus lascannon for instant death.

Ok thanks. He did summon as soon as he come on, so i'll have to clarify with him if i play him again.


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he sommoned half his army. I didnt really question it because pretty much everyone i have played previously has been pretty helpful and honest.

I don't know the guy but he may have been new to the game too. Or, sometimes when something unique appears in our rulebooks we unconsciously read it the way we want to read it and play it wrong. I know I'm guilty of this and a lot of the younger players at my shop are similar.

I once accidentally threw a tournament game into contention when I was watching a game where a chaos player consolidated Kharne and his berzerkers back into a landraider after combat. After I corrected it, his opponent was like "you mean to tell me this whole game you've been playing that wrong!"

Neither side was trying to cheat, the gave the win to the poor ultramarine player, but you may be in a situation like that.

Yeah, thats a fair point, i shouldnt jump to conclusions. I'm sure i've done the same.

Page 9 says the player whose turn it is decides the sequence of events, so if it is your turn you determine when things happen at the start of the turn. What is preventing a player from bringing his reserves on than generating warp charges?

It seems to me its clearly the player whose turn it is choice.

I am unfamiliar with Grey Knights, but in the BRB, page 68, it says Conjurations are used at the start of the Psykers movement phase. If that summoning power is a Conjuration, then the Grey Knight cannot deepstrike and then cast a power because their movement already happened. They do happen simultaneously, though, which means that other Psykers can cast Blessings on that deep-striking Grey Knight. But the Grey Knight Librarian can't himself cast power that are cast at the beginning of his movement phase.

rollawaythestone wrote:
I am unfamiliar with Grey Knights, but in the BRB, page 68, it says Conjurations are used at the start of the Psykers movement phase. If that summoning power is a Conjuration, then the Grey Knight cannot deepstrike and then cast a power because their movement already happened. They do happen simultaneously, though, which means that other Psykers can cast Blessings on that deep-striking Grey Knight. But the Grey Knight Librarian can't himself cast power that are cast at the beginning of his movement phase.

All of these things happen at the start of the turn pg 9 of the brb says the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. Reserves happen at the start of the turn so x players Librarian comes in, I than generate warp charges and use psychic powers which also happens at the start of the turn. There isn't a define sequence of events and when that happens pg 9 clearly says the player whose turn it is decides the order.

If you look at deep striking on pg 36 it tells you what you are allowed to do during the movement phase, that alone is saying that reserves and the movement phase is separate.

 CKO wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
I am unfamiliar with Grey Knights, but in the BRB, page 68, it says Conjurations are used at the start of the Psykers movement phase. If that summoning power is a Conjuration, then the Grey Knight cannot deepstrike and then cast a power because their movement already happened. They do happen simultaneously, though, which means that other Psykers can cast Blessings on that deep-striking Grey Knight. But the Grey Knight Librarian can't himself cast power that are cast at the beginning of his movement phase.

All of these things happen at the start of the turn pg 9 of the brb says the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. Reserves happen at the start of the turn so x players Librarian comes in, I than generate warp charges and use psychic powers which also happens at the start of the turn. There isn't a define sequence of events and when that happens pg 9 clearly says the player whose turn it is decides the order.

If you have deep striked, its no longer the beginning of your turn now is it?

Yes all forms of reserves outflank and deep striking is done at the start of the turn, so after you roll for your terminators you can roll for your storm raven.

Deep strike even has a section that tells you what you are allowed to do when the movement phase happens.

The active player only gets to choose order in the event of a conflict.

There is no conflict with Warp Charges and Reserves coming on at the same time. Thus the psyker in reserve isn't on the table and doesn't generate Warp Charges. You can't pick the order, they happen simultaneously.

Now, if you could somehow get a Warp Charge token, you could cast a "beginning of the turn" power after arriving from reserves. But as you have no charge you cannot.

If there isn't a conflict why are we discussing it?

 CKO wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
I am unfamiliar with Grey Knights, but in the BRB, page 68, it says Conjurations are used at the start of the Psykers movement phase. If that summoning power is a Conjuration, then the Grey Knight cannot deepstrike and then cast a power because their movement already happened. They do happen simultaneously, though, which means that other Psykers can cast Blessings on that deep-striking Grey Knight. But the Grey Knight Librarian can't himself cast power that are cast at the beginning of his movement phase.

All of these things happen at the start of the turn pg 9 of the brb says the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. Reserves happen at the start of the turn so x players Librarian comes in, I than generate warp charges and use psychic powers which also happens at the start of the turn. There isn't a define sequence of events and when that happens pg 9 clearly says the player whose turn it is decides the order.

If you look at deep striking on pg 36 it tells you what you are allowed to do during the movement phase, that alone is saying that reserves and the movement phase is separate.

There are numerous threads in YMDC explaining why you can't cast blessings/maledictions from reserves. Here is a random one I found. The consensus in all these threads is that you cannot come in from reserves and cast a psychic power that requires it to be cast at the beginning of the movement phase. Thus, a Tervigon cannot outflank (from a Tyrant with Hive Commander) and cast Iron Arm on itself in the same turn. If the Grey Knight libby is required to cast it's power at the beginning of the movement phase as well, it cannot deep-strike (come in from reserves) and cast it's power. I am unfamiliar with the actual text of the grey knight power, though, so depending on what it actually says this may or may not be the case.

rollawaythestone wrote:

There are numerous threads in YMDC explaining why you can't cast blessings/maledictions from reserves. Here is a random one I found. The consensus in all these threads is that you cannot come in from reserves and cast a psychic power that requires it to be cast at the beginning of the movement phase. Thus, a Tervigon cannot outflank (from a Tyrant with Hive Commander) and cast Iron Arm on itself in the same turn. If the Grey Knight libby is required to cast it's power at the beginning of the movement phase as well, it cannot deep-strike (come in from reserves) and cast it's power. I am unfamiliar with the actual text of the grey knight power, though, so depending on what it actually says this may or may not be the case.

It's actually in the rulebook. A unit that just came in from reserves cannot cast a psychic power that is manifested at the start of the Movement phase. However, a unit that is already on the table at the beginning of the turn can cast his psychic powers on a unit that just came in from reserves (here, we are given permission to do this from the BRB FAQ).




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Crunchyone wrote:
Ok thanks. He did summon as soon as he come on, so i'll have to clarify with him if i play him again.


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he sommoned half his army. I didnt really question it because pretty much everyone i have played previously has been pretty helpful and honest.

He is mistaken on both accounts.

1. Cannot summon on the turn he comes in from reserves (can't cast any powers that is done at the beginning of the Movement phase if your psyker just came in from reserves himself).

2. The Summoning can only be used to summon 1 unit at a time.

Doesn't sound like he's cheating. Seems as if he's just been playing it wrong because he doesn't really know his rules too well.

Thanks JY2

No prob. Glad to be of help.

Also the summoned unit Scatters as normal, which makes the Summoning kind of risky given the unit has to be started within 6" of the Librarian.

Chrysis wrote:
Also the summoned unit Scatters as normal, which makes the Summoning kind of risky given the unit has to be started within 6" of the Librarian.

Doesn't the GK FAQ state you don't scatter?

A squad of 10 paladins & Draigo could easily make up half his army so may not be wrong on that account either