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Hi Everyone,

Recently, my local GW closed down their bunker (8 gaming tables) and we are left with very little options for places to game.

Having spoken to a relatively new independent stockist in the area, they are saying that they are looking at the options of opening a 15 table dedicated gaming hall, but are concerned that it would not actually benefit them in a business sense at all, as the cost of renting the additional space would be too high.


Is there any evidence that this is worthwhile? I know Maelstrom had the eye of the storm before, but having never been there, how did it operate? Did they charge entry/rental for tables? or just hope that people ended up spending with them.

I would love to be able to have some form of quantifiable data to at least show it could work, giving us the space back again.

Thankyou

Claire

I don't think many people would have quantifiable data to show that dedicated space is worth it.

but the closest thing i can think of is the GW train of though of getting rid of the big bunkers and extra employees that are needed to keep an area running. so probably not worth it unless its a payed membership type club area.

 Desubot wrote:
I don't think many people would have quantifiable data to show that dedicated space is worth it.

but the closest thing i can think of is the GW train of though of getting rid of the big bunkers and extra employees that are needed to keep an area running. so probably not worth it unless its a payed membership type club area.

Currently, that is my train of thought, but what i cant understand with GW, is that they still have the bunkers, just dont use them (well, my local one is like that).

If you were to rent them out, or host tournaments, it could possibly cover the cost i am guessing.

Now I can't say how Maelstrom did it, but I think charging for table time or have some sort of "membership fee" is a great idea. If the tables and the terrain are good and the place is clean I'd gladly pay to play there.

Hoping that people will end up spending money with them is not a good idea, because people are and will always be freeloaders.

So they closed down the bunker area but not gotten rid of it?

Its possible they are stuck in some kinda lease agreement and walled it off so that they may switch to a one man shop.

Renting is possible but it really truly depends on the area. retail space can get expensive while some storage warehouse, not so much. you would need to calculate a group that could use it with an affordable price. but not only that you also need to take into consideration managers, utilities, insurance blah blah blah. It can get complicated :/.

mikhaila would be the person to PM. He owns a gaming store that has a dedicated gaming space of I think 8 to 12 tables.

fishy bob wrote:
Now I can't say how Maelstrom did it, but I think charging for table time or have some sort of "membership fee" is a great idea. If the tables and the terrain are good and the place is clean I'd gladly pay to play there.

Hoping that people will end up spending money with them is not a good idea, because people are and will always be freeloaders.

Just because its early in the thread,and youve got me thinking, i am going to ask another question:

What is a fair price to pay for the use of the tables in everyones opinion? I am thinking £5 a day isnt a silly amount, as that is what our local club charges for 3 hours.

 Desubot wrote:
So they closed down the bunker area but not gotten rid of it?

Its possible they are stuck in some kinda lease agreement and walled it off so that they may switch to a one man shop.

It was closed because "we arent a gaming club, we are here for hobby"

The impression i get here is allot of gamers are cheap and don't want to pay for much if at al at a store as they feel their purchases should cover the usage - whether they actually buy in the store or online doesn't seem to matter in some cases.

My own experience of clubs are that you have to pay a group to get space in a hall and this is perfectly acceptable to me.

I pay £2 per weekday night at one place but it has a bar so is subsidised by drinks. Another club I go to is in a church hall and costs £5 per Sunday afternoon (or £10 per month).

As you can tell I'm happy to pay for the utility of the space but I'm not convinced additional space rented at retail rates would necessarily work commercially. The places that I know/use in the UK are subsidised by a substantial online business.

They did the same at the GW in Poole - massively reduced the opening times and reduced your length of gaming.

Lots of new clubs have now opened! And lots of non GW games now being played

I guess im part of a lucky group. We rent out an office building bay and have room for 5 tables. We vharge a monthly dues rate to our members...
20$ gets you a one month membership and you can bring a buddy with you, but you can only play if there is a keyholder present.
60$ gets you a key to the club and the ability to play on any given day til whatever time we want.
Our group got tired of being shoo'ed away at a certain time or our dedicated game day at the local shop was pre-empted for a Magic tournament or Anime Sunday for the 3 creeps that enjoy that stuff...
So make the dive and take the chance...its worth it!!

 notprop wrote:
The impression i get here is allot of gamers are cheap and don't want to pay for much if at al at a store as they feel their purchases should cover the usage - whether they actually buy in the store or online doesn't seem to matter in some cases.

My own experience of clubs are that you have to pay a group to get space in a hall and this is perfectly acceptable to me.

I pay £2 per weekday night at one place but it has a bar so is subsidised by drinks. Another club I go to is in a church hall and costs £5 per Sunday afternoon (or £10 per month).

As you can tell I'm happy to pay for the utility of the space but I'm not convinced additional space rented at retail rates would necessarily work commercially. The places that I know/use in the UK are subsidised by a substantial online business.

I don't think its that gamers are cheap per-say its more along the lines of "I just dropped x amount and you should give me a space to play".....

So entitled then?

Installing a good food and snack place in the building would probably help recoup costs. I know my FLGS uses table space as a loss leader and makes up the cash with in-store miniature purchases, MtG, and snacks/drinks/food.

Drink machines.
No seriously drink machines are great ways to recoup costs on a gaming area, especially on hot days.

An FLGS near me also has a midday kitchen that sells burgers and such, I hear its quite profitable so that is an option for larger spaces.

Also keep in mind that while they may want an area for 15 tables they don't need to drop the $$ on all 15 right away, tell them to drop for three or four and base them around the area's most popular games and as table demand increases, increase the table number up until it matches demand.

We've got a pretty huge open gaming area here that's free to use. It is our thought that the more people are in your store the more they are going to be buying things, so give them reasons to hang out. It's especially evident with the Magic players who go back and forth from the Game room and store area buying more packs and singles and trading in cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and yeah, snack and pop machines.

There are various approaches that shops/clubs employ. A couple of local clubs I've played at have a weekly charge (£2-£2.50). Another store/club charges per table use about the same amount, with reductions for monthly or yearly membership. One store I know allows free tables, although they have lots of snacks/drinks for sale so possibly make money that way along with of course selling gaming goods in the store.

So, I think there are different methods used, but it varies very much from place to place - and specifically if they are paying a lot for rent of a space then expect that to be passed on in some form.

 AduroT wrote:
We've got a pretty huge open gaming area here that's free to use. It is our thought that the more people are in your store the more they are going to be buying things, so give them reasons to hang out. It's especially evident with the Magic players who go back and forth from the Game room and store area buying more packs and singles and trading in cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and yeah, snack and pop machines.

That's the ticket there. From talking to the owner of my FLGS and hearing stories about other shops, Magic players are the key to success. My FLGS supports every major game out there and lots of smaller ones, but I'm pretty sure it's Magic that keeps him afloat. He recently expanded his store (again) and now has two units, one with retail/gaming space and the other dedicated solely to gaming tables. All of which are free to use whenever they are open.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
We've got a pretty huge open gaming area here that's free to use. It is our thought that the more people are in your store the more they are going to be buying things, so give them reasons to hang out. It's especially evident with the Magic players who go back and forth from the Game room and store area buying more packs and singles and trading in cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and yeah, snack and pop machines.

That's the ticket there. From talking to the owner of my FLGS and hearing stories about other shops, Magic players are the key to success. My FLGS supports every major game out there and lots of smaller ones, but I'm pretty sure it's Magic that keeps him afloat. He recently expanded his store (again) and now has two units, one with retail/gaming space and the other dedicated solely to gaming tables. All of which are free to use whenever they are open.

Biggest money maker is Comics here for sure, but Magic is definitely second by a wide margin. I'd have to ask to be sure, but I could easily see Magic selling more than every other war/board/card game in the store combined. We have a very impressive Singles case.

 Krellnus wrote:
Also keep in mind that while they may want an area for 15 tables they don't need to drop the $$ on all 15 right away, tell them to drop for three or four and base them around the area's most popular games and as table demand increases, increase the table number up until it matches demand.

This.

Do you know what made them jump right into the 15 table idea? Do they know for a fact that will be sustainable?

hi guys,

In regards to the "why 15 tables" - they are looking at a retail space, that has a warehouse available for seperate rent behind. It is big enough to hold 15-18 tables.

 notprop wrote:
So entitled then?

Potnetial Gamer says, "If I'm going to spend the moeny, I will need to know there is place I can use this stuff. If there is no place to use this stuff, why should I buy it?"

The gameowner says: "Look you can use it right here! See, there are a bunch of other people who play it too."

Personally, I think having a few tables helps lower the perceived barrier of entry and enhances the chance to sell. That being said, adding a bunch of overhead for game space may not translate into more sales. It would have to be tested. I wouldn;t recommend adding a lot of table space and overhead on a gut feeling.

However, if he rents out the 15 space area, sets up 10, and adds a concession area he might be onto something. However, selling food often has a LOT of regulation requirements. Therefore, snack and vending machines might be a better bet. However, he would need to investigate the contracts such machines bring with them. They are not free.

No matter hwat, it would be a huge change to the owners business model, and a review of the business plan would be in order.

 notprop wrote:
So entitled then?

Sure?

It's a different mentality over here than it is in the UK. You all have gaming clubs, and these clubs function separately from your stores. We have stores where we (hopefully) buy our product from and in return the game stores give us a place to play. Edit: I realize that you also have stores in which you can play

I frequent 3 stores. 1 was my go to gaming store for a long time because the guy had an excellent selection, and as nice as a place as it was to be, open gaming wasn't a thing. He had 3 tables to play on, and it always felt a little odd when you'd try to drop in for a game. The second store is my current FLGS, it's 10 minutes from my work, I go there once a week, and do all of my purchasing through him because he has a table or two for us reserved on Friday nights. On your average night the 6 of us drop about 300 bucks, sometimes more, sometimes less (ya know those days where you just only need paint :(). Downstairs he has 10 tables used for Magic, and RPGs, but occasionally those get turned into wargaming tables when we outnumber the magic players (a rare event). My third store is in my hometown and I use it to pick up a pack or two of magic cards because they have a tournament on Thursday nights, and most Thursdays they're nice enough to push it back 15 minutes while I drive from work to their store. Come to think of it, I don't think I've left the store without buying 3 packs of boosters.

It's the old mentality we push around here of pay where you play. If you support your gaming club through paying for the space, buying snacks while there, etc... then pay there, and if your local GW or FLGS doesn't have the space to play, then it doesn't matter if you buy from them.

Would I prefer the intimate climate of a gaming club? Sure, would I pay 15 to 20 bucks a month for such a place? Sure, but that's the price of an MMO, so it doesn't really matter .

A few ideas:

Got a local gaming group that has modest club fees and they rent out a basement with storage space that can be rented by the club members.
http://migsclub.zymichost.com/

A local store has added couches, small coffee tables, a K-cup coffee machine, pop for sale and a modest amount of food.
Adding a cash machine can generate revenue as well.

If it is made to be a comfortable space with as many things to fund the group it would be win-win.

Yeah guys, it sucks to have to charge my buddies to play, but we are in it together and we get as much gaming as possible out of our club on a weekly basis.
If anyone is curious, our club has been posting battle reports on Dakka under the 4plus name. Weve been doing a Planetary Empires campaign and its wrapping up tonight!!
The Dark Eldar are taking on the Dark Angels in a showdown to the death...we ruled there could be no ties.

If I may offer my tuppence worth on the store vs club argument. Clubs are IMO a much better proposition. You're not going to get turfed off a table on the whims of the shop manager or suddenly find that 4 tables has become 1 that's only allowed to be used for demo games.

I attend two clubs on a regular basis and help run one of them. The one I help run was essentially set up by a group of rather grumpy GW regulars because the local GW changed it's gaming night organisation in a way that was preventing us from playing what we wanted. So we got together and rented a room at a local school.

It's fair to say that the first couple of month were a bit shaky but we've got a membership system that ensure we get enough money to continue renting the room and enough left to buy scenery or offer prizes in club competitions.

Currently we charge £10 for membership on a monthly basis or a £3 pay and play charge. There are two main benefits for being a member it's cheaper and you get first dibs on tables. We do this because it encourages people to become members and keep turning up which is ultimately what every club needs.

So I'd suggest that anyone who's having problems with getting a game at a local store at least gives setting a club up a go, it can't hurt to give it a try.

 Reaver83 wrote:
They did the same at the GW in Poole - massively reduced the opening times and reduced your length of gaming.

Lots of new clubs have now opened! And lots of non GW games now being played

One of the reasons for closing the Poole bunker was that the car park above was leaking water into all the premises below and the insurance wouldn't cover the cost of the repairs to the gaming tables and stuff, so it was decided to just close the bunker. Shame really as the bunker had just been redone a few months before they closed it

Ironic that a shop in Poole had water ingress issues.

Sorry this post has turned out to be a bit of a damp squib.






I'll get me coat.

I can't speak as a businessman but as a consumer I can offer my two lowest-denomination-of-appropriate-currency:

I play quite regularly at a place called firestorm games in cardiff, I'm a member of a club so I pay £17.50 per quarter for the use of their gaming facilities (which are quite substantial, there's a bar and snack foods on offer), or it's £3.50 per day for people just 'dropping in'

The net result is that when I do purchase things, I tend to do so from them, because a) I'm already there, b) the prices are good and c) because I want the business to continue running so I can continue to use their ample facilities.

I guess even if you make a tiny loss on running a gaming space, if you can get that loyalty with the customers then the profit on the purchases they make should balance it out.

 Jinxy wrote:


Just because its early in the thread,and youve got me thinking, i am going to ask another question:

What is a fair price to pay for the use of the tables in everyones opinion? I am thinking £5 a day isnt a silly amount, as that is what our local club charges for 3 hours.

I think one of the (sort of) nearby gaming stores has a gaming lounge that costs $2Aud for casual visits and $110 or so for a year membership. Seems reasonable to me. They also have drinks etc.

I've not been there because I'm too lazy to drive that far and anyone I would be gaming with lives in the opposite direction.

A separate Gaming hall won't do much for business, but if it's attached to the store or is part of the store, it can be a boon.

I only have anecdotal evidence for this , but it's reasonably convincing to me. The largest and longest running game store in Chicagoland (Games Plus) is also the one that has 7 large gaming tables (4 big enough to support two games at once) a private RPG room, 3 semi-private parititioned board gaming areas (each with a table or two) and a couple of smaller tables. They also have an amazing selection and a long history, so that's part of their success, but it's a gaming destination, not just a store.

The second largest game store (CHicagoland Games Dice Dojo) and one that actually seemed to grow during the recession did so by renting an empty space two doors down for gaming space. 2 years of that and they ended up doubling their space in a build out and probably have 15-20 tables or more now.

If you can get the space at a price that makes it worthwhile, I really think that larger gaming areas is THE best way to get customers in the store playing games and spending money.