Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've seen this argument before. I have never seen anything in the rules that indicates the options for a unit may only be taken in a specific order. The only logical conclusions we can draw from all of the codex FAQs are as fallows.

0) Not all options necessarily apply to all models in the unit.
1) Changing a model in the unit through an upgrade can change what options are available to it.
2) The order you choose the options does not matter.
3) If an option requires something be given up, the model must have that something for the option to be valid.
4) A model only loose an item if it is told to give it up as part of an option.
5) Some options may not be valid because of the order you choose to take them in.
6) Some options can be a waste of points depending on the order you choose to take them in.

If you feel you know of a specific FAQ entry that refutes these conclusions lets hear it.

it may be worth comparing the way the command squad entry is written to the way the tactical squad entry is written. the command squad has been listed numerous times so i'll just reference the relevant points on the tac entry:

- unit composition - 4 space marines, 1 space marine sergeant
- options - "may upgrade the space marine sergeant to a veteran sergeant"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may replace his boltgun and/or bolt pistol with a chainsword"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may take items from the melee weapons and/or ranged weapons lists"
- options - "the space marine sergeant or veteran sergeant may take any of the following"
- there are 3 profiles on the unit: space marine, space marine sergeant, veteran sergeant

it seems that the veteran sergeant needs to have explicit permission to take any upgrades items (by virtue of it being explicitly specified). if you agree that the apothecary upgrade changes the profile of the model, then the veteran sergeant upgrade for tacs is the same principle. since the vet sgt has written permission to take items, he takes them; the apothecary does not have same written permission.

note that the veteran sergeant and the space marine sergeant have exactly the same upgrades available to them. what would be the point of them listing the vet sgt separately if the vet sgt ALREADY has the options available to him by virtue of him at one point in time having been a space marine sergeant in the 'army building stage'? it seems like in order for both types of sergeant to have the same upgrades available, the unit entry had to be written in such a way as to allow it. that they get the same weapons does not seem to be implied, by virtue of it having been explicitly stated. the options for a command squad are not written in the same way; the apothecaries are not given express permission to carry special weapons even though veterans are.

it seems like the upgrade to apothecary is a downgrade to himself in exchange for feel no pain on the unit. is 15 points a fair trade for that buff? however, it also seems like the company champion could be less well equipped than his veteran brothers, who can take a storm shield while he gets only a combat shield... that seems both odd and unfluffy.

wargamer1985 wrote:
...In this flipping case once you upgrade a member of the unit to an apothecary he is NO LONGER A VETERAN AS HE IS NOT CALLED A VETERAN APOTHECARY it is plain clear simple english. The apothecary cannot take other upgrades...

I don't see this as an issue. You're correct, the Apothecary doesn't have access to special weapon upgrades. But no-where, in either Codex, Rule Book or Supplement does it say he can't have one. He just can't upgrade to one.

And no-where does it state that a model is "illegal" (not my choice of words) for possessing a certain weapon or wargear that has been selected following the rules as laid down in their unit entry.

So it simply comes back to the application of timing for the upgrades. Which we're all agreed isn't crystal clear. For my part, I can't be arsed converting my Apothecary to carry a special weapon, but I'd happily play anyone that did.

I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.

 Fulcrum wrote:
I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.

3rd edititon Codex: Space Marines allowed your Apothecary and Techmarine to run around waving a thunder hammer and a bolter. They also could have a special or heavy weapon. All at the same time! That's of course if I remember the weapon rules correctly, specifically that special and heavy weapons don't have a handedness mentioned. Bolters do so that's a different matter.

Older BT-codex specifically says that you can't upgrade a special or heavy weapons dude into a specialist (apothecary, standard bearer, champion). The sergeant could have a bigger gun.

 Fulcrum wrote:
I don't think an apothecary can take veteran wargear. Never has been able to in any previous codex, including DA. I wish they could, it would make more sense, but nothing GW does makes sense.

Actually, in the previous codex, DW/RW Apothecaries could take upgrades like the CML (which was restricted to DW Terminators).

I dont agree with Apothecaries being able to have upgrades because the current Blood Angel codex FAQ prohibits Apothecaries from having upgrades because they do not count as honor guard.

IMO, once you select the Apothecary upgrade for a veteran, they cease being a Veteran, they adopt the Apothecary statline and thats it.

The only upgrades that would be allowed are ones that apply to the entire squad, such as buying bikes for the entire squad.

Th0rh4mm3r wrote:
I dont agree with Apothecaries being able to have upgrades because the current Blood Angel codex FAQ prohibits Apothecaries from having upgrades because they do not count as honor guard.

IMO, once you select the Apothecary upgrade for a veteran, they cease being a Veteran, they adopt the Apothecary statline and thats it.

The only upgrades that would be allowed are ones that apply to the entire squad, such as buying bikes for the entire squad.

You are right, well 90 % right. The point I'm trying to make that you are missing is that while the Apothecary does not have access to the options available to any veteran the act up upgrading him does not invalidate any previous choice. There is no restriction on the order you take these options.

Lets try an example. I have a command squad made up of 5 identical veterans.

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

I select Veteran B and give him a storm shield.

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

I also select Veteran A and upgrade him to a company champion. He must exchange his chainsword as part of this upgrade.

CHAMPIAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Combat Shield, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

At this point model A is no longer a Veteran and a bunch of options just became invalid for him. Model B however still is a veteran and now I decide I want him to be an Apothecary. No equipment is replaced as part of this upgrade.

CHAMPIAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, Combat Shield, Grenades
APOTHECARY B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield, Narthecium
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

At this point model B is no longer a Veteran and a bunch of options just became invalid for him. These options were valid at an erlier time to none of those previous choices are invalid.

Now lets rewind to before Model A was upgraded to a champion.

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

Lets say I want to replace Veteran B's chain sword with a Lightning Claw

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

and then upgrade 'B' to a Company Champion. He no longer has a chainsword to replace so he will not get a power weapon or combat shield.

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
CHAMPION B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

All of these are valid scenarios because there is no restriction in the order the options must be taken. The reason this does not work for the blood angels because in that unit the model never was an honour guard, none of the the options were ever valid.

I have to disagree on the last one.
The entry says you have to replace the Chainsword.
You don't have a Chainsword.
To me that means you cannot take the upgrade.

Kangodo wrote:
I have to disagree on the last one.
The entry says you have to replace the Chainsword.
You don't have a Chainsword.
To me that means you cannot take the upgrade.

I was on the fence for that one myself. I went this way because the way they wrote the choice. The replacement is an effect of the upgrade, not a cost like it is with taking weapons from the wargear list. That and there are a few FAQ entries that support the idea of you do as much of the option as possible (i.e its not all or nothing)

 DJGietzen wrote:

and then upgrade 'B' to a Company Champion. He no longer has a chainsword to replace so he will not get a power weapon or combat shield.

VETERAN A: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
CHAMPION B: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Grenades, Storm Shield
VETERAN C: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN D: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades
VETERAN E: Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Grenades

Swapping the chainsword isn't optional - if he doesn't have it, you can't upgrade him.

The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom, so for the example of the Command Squad the order is
- are you taking a banner?
- is one model becoming the Company Champion?
- is one model becoming an Apothecary?
- are you mounting the squad on bikes?
- any Veteran taking melta bombs or storm shield?
- etc for the other weapon options for Veterans
- is the unit taking a transport?

using this process by the time you get to taking the special weapons and some gear (melta bombs and SS) the model that was a Veteran is now an Apothecary and cannot pick them up.

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom.

I'm assuming you put the Bike Squad option (replace bot pistol with chainsword) right after adding more models?

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,

I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.

Evidence in the Eldar Codex supports that when a Model takes an upgrade that changes its Profile/Name, it loses access to upgrades that specified its previous Profile/Name as a eligible model to take the upgrade.

Under Dark Reapers:

"All Dark Reapers in the unit may take starshot missiles... X pts/Model"

" Upgrade one Dark Reaper to a Dark Reaper Exarch... Y pts"

"If the Dark Reaper Exarch has a reaper launcher, he may take starshot missiles... Z pts" - (reaper launchers are the default weapon. Since Exarchs can change out their weapon prior to when this upgrade is listed, it is specified to make sure the modle has the right weapon for the upgrade.)

Its clear GW intended for some upgrades to be taken by anyone in the unit and others taken only by specific models.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,

I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.

Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)

 Bausk wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,

I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.

Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)

Although I am with you on the Apothecary not being able to take weapons your plague zombie example doesn't work as they have a special rule (in typhus's profile) that prevents them from taking upgrades. Not quite the same thing.

Warfrog wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:
The method my group of friends have all agreed on is that the bullet points for upgrades are to be done in order from top to bottom,

I understand a lot of people play this way. My group does not and we do not because we have never seen any evidence that it is required or intended and a little evidence that this is not intended.

Sweet, now we can have MoN plague zombies by giving them the MoN before making them zombies. Why didn't I think of that? (Add sarcasm)

Although I am with you on the Apothecary not being able to take weapons your plague zombie example doesn't work as they have a special rule (in typhus's profile) that prevents them from taking upgrades. Not quite the same thing.

Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).

 Happyjew wrote:

Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).

Beautifully done. It brings a tear to my eye

Yeah they can't take a grav-gun because its a 'special' weapon, veterans in a command squad can only take 'ranged' weapons. Pg 164 second last option.

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).

Its not the same thing though. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. This rule invalidates any choices made before upgrading. The upgraded to an Apoth veteran has no such rule and as such no choices are made invalid via upgrading.

Out of curiosity, does any one have the enhanced ipad codex with the force requisition tool? What happens in the tool if you replace all the bolters in the squad with storm bolters and give the squad 5 storm shield then upgrade the one veteran to an apothecary? Will it even let you do that? If so does it tell you what the apothecary's war gear is? Will it let you exchange his bolter for a storm bolter after you upgrade him?

I mean, the ipad tool may not be perfect but until we are told other wise it should answer any RAI questions.

 inkybones wrote:
Yeah they can't take a grav-gun because its a 'special' weapon, veterans in a command squad can only take 'ranged' weapons. Pg 164 second last option.

That has been FAQ'd.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually it is the same thing. We are giving Cultists a MoN then making them Zombies. So either Zombies can have a MoN (which they cannot) or Apothecaries cannot have upgrades barring a FAQ from GW (such as with the old DW/RW Apothcaries).

Its not the same thing though. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. This rule invalidates any choices made before upgrading.

Someone did not read the Errata...

Plague Zombies are
Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow
and Purposeful special rules and cannot purchase options
other than to add additional models to the unit.

I underlined the important bit.

I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.

Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?

What foundation is there for the belief the options must be taken in top down order? Failing that what foundation is there to believe a Veteran with nonstandard wargear that is upgraded to something other than a veteran must revert back to the standard wargear 1st? These are two leaps of logic that do not make sense to me.

I will have to add my support to the apothecary being able to take weapons.

The apothecary has no restrictions on purchasing equipment, as in there is no rule saying he cant have anything. Unlike that of zombies.

As a small axiom:

Consider that all upgrades at list building time are happening all at the same instant.

Now:
The model in question is both at the same time an apothecary and a veteran.

Comparing that to the zombie:
At the same time the zombie is a cultist. Cultist has weapon options, zombie has restriction. You must adhere to the rule that limits. (thus the zombie cultist gets nothing)


However, as stated, the apothecary has no restriction, thus no rule of limit to adhere to. (unlike the zombie/cultist)

Therefore, Apothecary/Vertan is allowed to buy weapons because the Apothecary has no limits, and the Veteran has the options.





Applying the same Axiom to the boy squad reference, the model in question is both a boy and a Nob. While the Nob doesn't have the rule, he doesn't have the restriction. And the Boy has the option.
Thus the Nob is allowed a Big Shoota.

If you try to argue that the Boy can now take a Power Klaw you are incorrect, because the upgrade is still in question and the upgrade to Nob must be paid for this Axiom/situation to take place.
Also know as the model in question is not a hybrid until the upgrade is paid for to cause the hybrid effect.

EDITS: fixed a couple typos/spaced it out

 DJGietzen wrote:
[snip]Failing that what foundation is there to believe a Veteran with nonstandard wargear that is upgraded to something other than a veteran must revert back to the standard wargear 1st?[snip]

This example only makes a points difference of 2 but I believe it shows intent for models upgraded to a different model with a new printed statline to reset their wargear.

Eldar Dark reapers. Starting with a unit of 3 I decide I want to take starshot missiles for the unit. The codex says the All Dark Reapers in the unit may take them at X cost per model. So now I have 3 Dark Reapers with Reaper lauchers with starswarm and starshot missiles for wargear. Now i am given the option to upgrade one into a Dark Reaper Exarch. The exarch has a few other weapon choices but If he keeps his Reaper Launcher in favor of the other weapon choices he is given the option to again take Starshot missiles but for Y points this time. But if his wargear didn't reset when i upgraded him he already has starshot missiles. Y>X so he got them for a cheaper point cost. Why would anyone ever pay more points for the same upgrade if he can take it prior to changing his model type?

The best answer is he lost the starshot missiles when he upgraded since they were for "Dark Reapers" not "Dark Reaper Exacrhs"

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.

Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?

Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.

Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?

Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.

My above areguement will solve this issue.

 cormadepanda wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
I read the errata, also the part you under lined is in the printed book as well. They errata added the bit about being able to purchase more zombies/cultists.

Did you read the post you quoted? here let me repeat the important part. A Zombie group is specifically forbidden from having any other options. Without this explicit restriction zombies could have any upgrade the cultist unit could have, The apothecary/company champion has no restrictions like this. Why are you assuming it should have them?

Citation needed. I see a rule that says Zombies cannot purchase options other than more models, however, in this hypothetical situation, the zombies are not purchasing upgrades. I take a unit of Cultists. I purchase a Mark of Nurgle. I nominate them to be PZs.

My above areguement will solve this issue.

Then you can provide a RAW argument that an Apothecary can purchase upgrades? I see permission for Veterans but not Champions or Apothecaries.

Yaaay! Circle-threading!
Apothecary never takes the upgrade, the Veteran takes both a Grav-rifle ánd the Apothecary-upgrade.