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Kangodo wrote:
Yaaay! Circle-threading!
Apothecary never takes the upgrade, the Veteran takes both a Grav-rifle ánd the Apothecary-upgrade.

Right and the PZs take the Mark when they are Cultists (because cultists can purchase upgrades) and then nominated to be PZs.

I don't know what Plague-zombies do and what they are.
That's why I started a CCS-thread and not a PZ-thread.

I'm pointing out that you could try and use the logic of "Oh I bought "X" first and then I upgraded to "model", so even though "model" does not have permission to purchase said upgrade he can still have it." with just about any unit and it doesn't work.

There are 4 rulings on this topic that I'm aware of.
Orks - Boyz -> Nob: You can purchase certain upgrades in any order thus allowing your Nob to replace something that the unit does not have.
Orks - Nob-> Painboy: Painboy cannot take certain upgrades.
Blood Angels - Furioso Dreadnought: If you upgrade to Librarian you lose all wargear (per codex), Librarian cannot take options (per FAQ)
Dark Angels (4th edition codex) - Deathwing/Ravenwing Apothecaries: Per the FAQ, they could take special weapons, however, this codex is no longer in use.

Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.

LMAO way to take a joke and run with it guys.

Still yet to hear an answer from the pro-options side on if a company champ or apoth will take a wound if a vet is hit by that previously mentioned melee weapon... Really if you think they won't based on the fact they are a champ or apoth with a different stat line but still claim you can retoactivly equip them as vets then we might as well allow MoN plague zombies at this point.

davin1023 wrote:
Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.

I'd live to see screen grabs or a video (as I don't even know how the tool looks) but specifically. If you have a 5 man command squad and give all 5 of them a storm shield then upgrade one to an apothecary, does the apothecary have a storm shield? Does the squad only have 4 storm shields? Can you even do it in that order?

despite the attempt to saddle space marines with the Ork rules, the digital codex after the upgrade states Any veteran may upgrade a special weapon. so if you have 5 including a apothecary and champion they all can have the grave gun. The vet upgrading to have a Nethercium dosent cease to be a vet.

Lungpickle wrote:
despite the attempt to saddle space marines with the Ork rules, the digital codex after the upgrade states Any veteran may upgrade a special weapon. so if you have 5 including a apothecary and champion they all can have the grave gun. The vet upgrading to have a Nethercium dosent cease to be a vet.

Ok so if that special dark eldar melee weapon happened to inflict a wound on a vet then the apoth would take a wound along with the rest of the vets in the same combat? That is essentially what you're saying, that regardless of present name and statline the apoth and Champ are ALWAYS veterans.

 DJGietzen wrote:

davin1023 wrote:
Looks like the answer is no. The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.

I'd live to see screen grabs or a video (as I don't even know how the tool looks) but specifically. If you have a 5 man command squad and give all 5 of them a storm shield then upgrade one to an apothecary, does the apothecary have a storm shield? Does the squad only have 4 storm shields? Can you even do it in that order?

As a five man squad you can equip up to 10 items. So one thunder hammer and one gavgun each. As soon as you upgrade to the Apothecary it resets all choices, and you can now only select 8 items. The same is true with the champion. If you have both a champion and an apothecary you are limited to 6 choices.

Stormshields are actually in a different area of the page, however, they work the same way. (Melts bombs are also in this section and function identically.) Champions and Apothecaries can not take them. You can however, take a gravgun, thunder hammer, and a storm shield on the veterans.

Great :') I love how we now have three answers with some people saying yes and others saying no.

Screenshots maybe?

(.png files wouldn't show. I'll just link to the folder instead)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qbqiu0lzmd174pq/dSW_DJBX_q

I used stormbolters because the were close the the thunder hammers on the screen.

I think that ends the discussion Good job!

The update to the Force Organization portion of the Digital Edition of the codex will not allow you to add weapons to the Apothocary.

Winner!

This does end the discussion. No upgrades for the Apothecary or champion.

Hmm my digital codex under force requisition allows me 5 grav guns, a champ and apothecary. So looks like he can have a gun.

Would you be able to provide a screenshot where you have 5 gravguns and both upgrades?

Lungpickle wrote:
Hmm my digital codex under force requisition allows me 5 grav guns, a champ and apothecary. So looks like he can have a gun.

Keep adding, you'll actually be able to add 8 total, two weapons per veteran. If you drop the apothecary you will be able to add 10. And if you add the champion in you'll be able to add 6.

The reason you can add a 5th is because there is nothing stopping a model from having two gravguns. It's useless but legal.

On a side note, this seams very flakey.

Yeah, Veterans can take special weapons, and they have two weapons they can replace. So they can have a special weapon and a bolter or even two special weapons. Which is stupid.

What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.

I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.

davin1023 wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.

I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.

I also agree, in fact I do have the version with the force org and it will allow me to give all the veterans special weapons just fine and does nothing to prevent me from having one for each model (including the champion and apothecary).

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

davin1023 wrote:

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.

I agree it needs an FAQ to specify. I'm just trying to pass along info from what I Believe is the most up to date version of the codex.

I also agree, in fact I do have the version with the force org and it will allow me to give all the veterans special weapons just fine and does nothing to prevent me from having one for each model (including the champion and apothecary).

How many total weapons can you give them? I can do 10 per squad if there is no apothecary or champion. And then two less for each of those in the squad. Strangely it only let's me do 5 gravguns, no matter what.

I wouldn't trust the digital codex, because It could easily change to allow what the pro weapon upgrades are wanting. However, this doesn't we don't need a FAQ. I will be interested to see how major tournaments like FOB will rule it, because if a large tourny supports the idea of A or B players play that way. For now, my apothecary has a power fist because of rule of cool.

Yeah FOB will be a big teller.

Nothing prevents you from taking it except precedent and Apoths and Champs are not veterans. You know rules.

Good job at ignoring 5 pages of discussion just to bump a thread (Y)

 ah64pilot5 wrote:
What about all of the non digital codexes or the digital ones without the force org portion.
There is nothing there to which specifies the order of upgrades or prohibits/permits the apothecary to have special weapons.
So which one takes precedence? It has already been put out that the force org part is very Beta and incomplete so can it really be considered as the final answer when the only people who will have that answer are the ones with that version of the digital book?
Based on the way it is written in the basic codex it very much alludes to just allowing them to take the weapons.

For me it was never about RAW. Clearly the RAW is a little vague and almost every argument here is really about RAI. Thanks to the ipad codex RAI is clear, and RAW is a lot less vague once you know the author's intent.

Kangodo wrote:
Good job at ignoring 5 pages of discussion just to bump a thread (Y)

Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.

 Bausk wrote:
Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.

What questions?
"As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound."
Nobody says that and that would not be 'by the logic of some people'.
Ignoring a single person or so, nobody claims that the Apothecary is still a Veteran.
They only say that a Veteran can take an upgrade, then upgrade to Apothecary.

Kangodo wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Good job ignoring that I've been posting in the thread since page four, yet no one cares to answer the questions I ask.

What questions?
"As a curiousity, I recall a Melee weapon that if you wound a model all other models with the same profile name and state line take wounds (or something to that effect). By the logic of some people in this thread the company champion and apoth would both be taking wounds if a Vet took the initial wound."
Nobody says that and that would not be 'by the logic of some people'.
Ignoring a single person or so, nobody claims that the Apothecary is still a Veteran.
They only say that a Veteran can take an upgrade, then upgrade to Apothecary.

And that's where the Ork FAQ precedent comes into play. Unless there is a precedent supporting changing profiles and keeping upgrades from the previous profile that you'd like to mention? If not then I can only infer that the Pro-side assume Apothecary is both a Veteran and an Apothecary to maintain its upgrade. The digital Codex, admittedly still in beta, supports the Con-side as well.

So lets recap those five and a bit pages for you.

Pro
It doesn't say I can't

Con
Permissive rule set - It doesn't specifically say you can
precedent - Ork FAQ
Digital Codex
precedent - Plague Zombies - Minus a single FAQ'd exception.

That about wraps it up. Oh yes, and no unit in the entirety of 40k allows upgrades/options to pass from one Profile to another.

It would be like arguing a Terminator Captain gets a command squad, even though it has a different profile to the Captain and is not specifically listed in the allowed HQs under the command squad.