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I remember reading a pre release FAQ that said Pedro and Lysander could not be in the same legal list.

However- upon receiving my codex last night (and I was just skimming for rules changes) I did not see anything preventing Lysander and Pedro being in the same list.


Anyone?

Both have Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fist).
That means both of them can be taken in an Imperial Fists list.

Chapter Tactics (not sure page).

While both have the same Chapter Tactics rule, Pedro is Crimson Fists and Lysander is Imperial Fists.

The problem is that there is no Chapter Tactics (Crimson Fists) special rule so at the moment we're not quite sure how Pedro Kantor is supposed to be used.

He can be taken in Imperial Fist detachments. What's the confusion?

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
He can be taken in Imperial Fist detachments. What's the confusion?

this was my understanding as well.

way i see it, imperial fists and crimson fists are 2 separate armies, but share the same tactics. you can take both in the same army, but kantor's special rules will only affect the crimson fists datachment, while lysander will only affect the imperial fists, unless his rules state that they affect the models with the tactics, unlike kantor's rules which specify crimson fists.

One of the 2 would be an allied detachment, with unit requirements having to be matched (1 troop min).
Whats interesting is Lysanders Morale re-roll effects everyone with the IF tactics...which includes CFs...but Kantor's Preffered enemy (Orks) only works on CFs.

So yeah, you could take Kantor, but it would have to be an Allied Detachment (in the same way you could also take Vulkan or calgar, or Shrike).

Chapters with the same CT count as the same detachment, so no allies are required, they are just one army. You can legally take Lysander and Pedro as one army just fine. There's no confusion in the rules as written, people are just getting hung up on incorrect rumours put out by 40k radio.

You cannot have models with different chapter tactics in the same detachment, so since pedro has "crimson fists" and lysander has "imperial fists" it's no go RAW.

 juraigamer wrote:
You cannot have models with different chapter tactics in the same detachment, so since pedro has "crimson fists" and lysander has "imperial fists" it's no go RAW.

No, Pedro has Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists).


Also from page 77:

Note that you may field models from two different Chapters
that have the same Chapter Tactics (such as Ultramarines
and Praetors of Orpheus) in the same detachment - these
Chapters are so closely affiliated that they count as a single
army on the battlefield.

Yeah, page 115 of C: SM shows Pedro with CT: Imperial Fists, as does page 162.

Not sure where people are getting the idea that they have different Chapter Tactics.

Ok nevermind, the first guy I read in another thread had it wrong. You can do it.

Yeah... Page 77 seems to cover this quite nicely. Totally legal.

Also.. not going to call out any names but... astounded at the number of people coming in here stating things RAW, saying Crimson Fists have CT Crimson fists... who clearly have not even read the rulebook.

Just a pet peeve, but if you are going to post in a RULES forum... don't just make assumptions.

Just remember that the Oath of Rynn and the Icon of Obstinacy only work if the respective characters are your Warlord.

You can have them both in the same army, but 1 will be your warlord and the others rule will no longer function.

I think the rules should be that they can be in the same detachment and army, but only if the models deploy within 2" of each other for the purpose of performing a "bro fist".

Following this bro fist, they may re-deploy anywhere on the field, including into dedicated transports or even into reserves, and act as though they did not redeploy. They may also perform a further redeployment if some special rule allows it.

Lehnsherr wrote:Just remember that the Oath of Rynn and the Icon of Obstinacy only work if the respective characters are your Warlord.

You can have them both in the same army, but 1 will be your warlord and the others rule will no longer function.

That is a really good point! See... this is the kind of discussion that is helpful.

DogofWar1 wrote:I think the rules should be that they can be in the same detachment and army, but only if the models deploy within 2" of each other for the purpose of performing a "bro fist".

Following this bro fist, they may re-deploy anywhere on the field, including into dedicated transports or even into reserves, and act as though they did not redeploy. They may also perform a further redeployment if some special rule allows it.

This is a new house rule... thank you

DogofWar1 wrote:
I think the rules should be that they can be in the same detachment and army, but only if the models deploy within 2" of each other for the purpose of performing a "bro fist".

Following this bro fist, they may re-deploy anywhere on the field, including into dedicated transports or even into reserves, and act as though they did not redeploy. They may also perform a further redeployment if some special rule allows it.

Please note: The Bro Fist also applies to Blood Angels and Necrons, but only when facing a nid opponent.

I was gettin geared up for a rule rampage then spotted people got it right n then laughed myself out of bed at the bro fist rule

Does the Bro Fist Rule also require you to model your characters so that they are putting out their Bro Fists towards one another?

Another question about Kantor and the IF tacs; does the bolter-fire IF tac effect Kantor's own "posh storm bolter"?
Is the paragraph describing Kantor's weapon as an ancient storm bolter just fluff?

bone idol wrote:
Another question about Kantor and the IF tacs; does the bolter-fire IF tac effect Kantor's own "posh storm bolter"?
Is the paragraph describing Kantor's weapon as an ancient storm bolter just fluff?

There's already a thread on this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/550876.page#6035515

TehCheator wrote:
Does the Bro Fist Rule also require you to model your characters so that they are putting out their Bro Fists towards one another?

If you consider the Fist of Dorn a fist with which one can bro, then they already are.

DogofWar1 wrote:
If you consider the Fist of Dorn a fist with which one can bro, then they already are.

Hmmm, well that brings up a Lore question: Was Dorn a Bro?

I think Yes.

Can someone clarify this for me ( related to the above question).

Are Special Characters relegated ONLY to the actual chapters they originate in or can you use "Marneus" as your chapter Master for your "Marines of Excellence" home brew chapter who use the Ultramarines Chapter Traits?

General Hobbs wrote:


Can someone clarify this for me ( related to the above question).

Are Special Characters relegated ONLY to the actual chapters they originate in or can you use "Marneus" as your chapter Master for your "Marines of Excellence" home brew chapter who use the Ultramarines Chapter Traits?

Counts as SCs are fine so long as the army works with the right CT. Successors simply use the CTs of their parent chapters.

You can take Calgar in your Ultramarines, but not Kantor. You can take Kantor in your Crimson Fists (Imperial Fists), but not Calgar. You CAN ally them though.

This thread is a cool bro story.

DogofWar1 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


Can someone clarify this for me ( related to the above question).

Are Special Characters relegated ONLY to the actual chapters they originate in or can you use "Marneus" as your chapter Master for your "Marines of Excellence" home brew chapter who use the Ultramarines Chapter Traits?

Counts as SCs are fine so long as the army works with the right CT. Successors simply use the CTs of their parent chapters.

You can take Calgar in your Ultramarines, but not Kantor. You can take Kantor in your Crimson Fists (Imperial Fists), but not Calgar. You CAN ally them though.

Furthermore there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying your... Crimson Fist painted marines have a "Counts as Sicarious" or "Counts as Telion" model and using Ultramarines CT. So long as you declare what CT you are using at the beginning of the game and it does not conflict with any special characters then you are 100% legal

I plan on running a lot of Counts As something else 'crimson fist' armies