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2013/09/12 18:54:13
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Frazzled wrote: Fair point. Then I'll rephrase. it would be interesting to tell the many people barely making payments, crying in frustration that they can't send their kids to college an take care of their parents, theat we're going to spend trillions to send a monkey to Mars.
They should take up their fight with the mega-rich funneling all the assets upwards to themselves more than they should the government for not giving them handouts, right?
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2013/09/12 19:05:47
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: NASA's budget is 0.5% of the federal budget. The average taxpayer gives NASA about $9 a year.
Again, NASA cannot reach Mars on their current budget. You'd be looking at a substantially higher budget, for twenty years. And all this so that you can send a dozen people to a cold, lifeless desert.
For comparison, the most recent Antarctic base cost $10 million a year for four years to build. And there's actually stuff in Antarctica.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/12 19:10:31
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/09/12 19:17:25
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: NASA's budget is 0.5% of the federal budget. The average taxpayer gives NASA about $9 a year.
Thats sweet pooplkins but brilliantly irrelevant. The topic is going to Mars. To go to Mars you have to factor in the cost, including secondary and primary stations.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: NASA's budget is 0.5% of the federal budget. The average taxpayer gives NASA about $9 a year.
Again, NASA cannot reach Mars on their current budget. You'd be looking at a substantially higher budget, for twenty years. And all this so that you can send a dozen people to a cold, lifeless desert.
For comparison, the most recent Antarctic base cost $10 million a year for four years to build. And there's actually stuff in Antarctica.
Penguins that can do the Charleston! And of course, the hidden Nazi base.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/12 19:18:22
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/12 23:56:59
Subject: Re:'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Thats sweet pooplkins but brilliantly irrelevant. The topic is going to Mars. To go to Mars you have to factor in the cost, including secondary and primary stations.
Clearly and I fully understand what the topic is. Snarky comments notwithstanding, the poster above you said that NASA's budget is "normally less than 2% of the federal budget." I was merely confirming that statement and giving insight on how little Americans actually spend on NASA. Obviously we have to factor cost (it probably the most important aspect of anything we do), and seeing as how NASA receives so little money, things would need to change. But thanks for clearing that up for us.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2013/09/13 00:25:11
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Frazzled wrote: Fair point. Then I'll rephrase. it would be interesting to tell the many people barely making payments, crying in frustration that they can't send their kids to college an take care of their parents, theat we're going to spend trillions to send a monkey to Mars.
Id then come back with "Well do something about the political corruption that plagues our government, rather then complaining about going to Mars, which we will actually get SOMETHING out of the experience"
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: NASA's budget is 0.5% of the federal budget. The average taxpayer gives NASA about $9 a year.
Thats sweet pooplkins but brilliantly irrelevant. The topic is going to Mars. To go to Mars you have to factor in the cost, including secondary and primary stations.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: NASA's budget is 0.5% of the federal budget. The average taxpayer gives NASA about $9 a year.
Again, NASA cannot reach Mars on their current budget. You'd be looking at a substantially higher budget, for twenty years. And all this so that you can send a dozen people to a cold, lifeless desert.
For comparison, the most recent Antarctic base cost $10 million a year for four years to build. And there's actually stuff in Antarctica.
Penguins that can do the Charleston! And of course, the hidden Nazi base.
Nazi Base?!? I thought you were talking about the crater that leads to the center of our hollow Earth. Im confused now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/13 00:26:33
2013/09/13 00:37:30
Subject: Re:'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
That crater was in Ice KC. Think it more like a volcano crater. To get to the Mole People was some tunnel in the Andes
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2013/09/13 02:39:15
Subject: Re:'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
And so now you're giving up. Shame, we were so close. All you had to do was realise that unlike Columbus, no other organisations tried to follow in NASA's footsteps and reach the moon, and you'd have finally understood the point I made in my first post.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noir wrote: Or we could let then know that NASA budget is less then 4% of the US budget at it peak time and normal less then 2%. We are taking less then 2% the yearly Military budget. Why are you worryed about the maybe 20 million they might get on NASA's best year, hell just give them a billion form the Military budget. Then NASA good for 50 years. I don't know maybe people barely making payments should ask why we need to spend so much on the military, first.
A billion dollars lasting NASA 50 years? What are you talking about. NASA's budget now is about 18 billion.
I mean, NASA is pretty cheap, and pretty awesome, but if you want to talk numbers you shouldn't be off by a factor of a 1,000 times.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlexHolker wrote: Again, NASA cannot reach Mars on their current budget. You'd be looking at a substantially higher budget, for twenty years. And all this so that you can send a dozen people to a cold, lifeless desert.
Yeah, and the other point people are probably missing is that NASA does great work now, and they do work that no other agency in the world could do.
Decide that you want to put a man on Mars, and that means redirecting funds away from that useful work and towards pointless nonsense. Anyone who gives a gak about science should be outraged if such an idea ever got taken seriously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/13 02:46:46
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/13 18:19:58
Subject: Re:'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Although, you could argue that it is the purpose of governments to funnel money into pointless nonsense..
At least this would be one kind of pointless nonsense that might have future benefit for mankind, rather than stuff that's just built for killing people for instance.
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
I think those ''Luddites'', if you refer to Sebster and AlexHolker, realise very well the potential benefits of having the means of colonizing another planet. I mean, this has been part of our imaginary background since before we were all (except maybe Frazzled) born.
The problem being that we aren't in a position to exploit those benefits, or they simply aren't a need at this moment. Whatever materials we might want to exploit on Mars would require us to develop hauling technologies we do not have, and I doubt there are actually exploitable materials on Mars that would turn in a benefit after factoring the processing and shipping expenses.
For those talking about overpopulation... *sigh* overpopulation isn't a problem. It won't even be a problem in 50 years. The problem is proper population dispersion. And space colonization wouldn't, in any shape or form, be a short term solution to an overpopulation problem (and by short term I mean in the next centuries). Right now, establishing a base on Mars would be as useful as acquiring a multi-billion dollars aquarium.
I would much rather see an influx of funds and research time into long-term terraformation, done by boring scientists in boring white coats, behind their boring chemistry set, comfortably located in a boring, earthly research center. Actually, I'd much rather see all those funds go into a research field that could, in the foreseable future, actually change our civilization, such as cognitive science.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/13 19:01:02
[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.
2013/09/13 19:05:04
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
What benefit would that be? Apart from nationalistic bs, what does a Mars colony get you that an Antarctic colony doesn't?
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/09/13 19:28:39
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/13 19:32:48
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
I think those ''Luddites'', if you refer to Sebster and AlexHolker, realise very well the potential benefits of having the means of colonizing another planet. I mean, this has been part of our imaginary background since before we were all (except maybe Frazzled) born.
The problem being that we aren't in a position to exploit those benefits, or they simply aren't a need at this moment. Whatever materials we might want to exploit on Mars would require us to develop hauling technologies we do not have, and I doubt there are actually exploitable materials on Mars that would turn in a benefit after factoring the processing and shipping expenses.
For those talking about overpopulation... *sigh* overpopulation isn't a problem. It won't even be a problem in 50 years. The problem is proper population dispersion. And space colonization wouldn't, in any shape or form, be a short term solution to an overpopulation problem (and by short term I mean in the next centuries). Right now, establishing a base on Mars would be as useful as acquiring a multi-billion dollars aquarium.
I would much rather see an influx of funds and research time into long-term terraformation, done by boring scientists in boring white coats, behind their boring chemistry set, comfortably located in a boring, earthly research center. Actually, I'd much rather see all those funds go into a research field that could, in the foreseable future, actually change our civilization, such as cognitive science.
As has been pointed out already in this very thread, the Apollo program gave us technology that we use every day. It could be argued that we are using it right now.
It's not simply a matter of being on Mars. I'm referring more to the innovations that would get us there.
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2013/09/14 07:16:02
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Pacific wrote: Although, you could argue that it is the purpose of governments to funnel money into pointless nonsense..
At least this would be one kind of pointless nonsense that might have future benefit for mankind, rather than stuff that's just built for killing people for instance.
The current budget at NASA for killing people is pretty close to zero. Whereas the current NASA contribution to climate science. astrophysics and all sorts of other stuff is basically world leading.
Shift that funding towards putting a person on Mars and NASA becomes a materially less useful organisation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
Getting called a technolocrat and a luddite on the same weekend... huh.
I hope and dream that one day we'll colonise another planet. But I'm not going to confuse a dream with our immediate technological and economic capacities. Put a man on Mars... a colony will not follow. It's that fething simple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote: As has been pointed out already in this very thread, the Apollo program gave us technology that we use every day. It could be argued that we are using it right now.
It's not simply a matter of being on Mars. I'm referring more to the innovations that would get us there.
As was also pointed out, multi-billion dollar research and development will always produce technology off-shoots. But other R&D projects will also produce a useful main goal. Going to Mars will not.
Consider these two stories; "We spent 50 billion on getting to Mars. Along the way we advanced a number of related scientific fields, and put a man on Mars, who got back safely. And that was that, nobody else attempted the same. After a while people started talking about going to some other planet." "We spent 50 billion on terraforming technologies. Along the way we advanced a number of related scientific fields, and changed desert landscape in to high yield farming land. And once we did this, it became economically viable for all a number of private companies to deploy similar technology all around the globe, and it changed the world forever."
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/09/16 02:57:46
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/16 10:58:04
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
I think those ''Luddites'', if you refer to Sebster and AlexHolker, realise very well the potential benefits of having the means of colonizing another planet. I mean, this has been part of our imaginary background since before we were all (except maybe Frazzled) born.
The problem being that we aren't in a position to exploit those benefits, or they simply aren't a need at this moment. Whatever materials we might want to exploit on Mars would require us to develop hauling technologies we do not have, and I doubt there are actually exploitable materials on Mars that would turn in a benefit after factoring the processing and shipping expenses.
For those talking about overpopulation... *sigh* overpopulation isn't a problem. It won't even be a problem in 50 years. The problem is proper population dispersion. And space colonization wouldn't, in any shape or form, be a short term solution to an overpopulation problem (and by short term I mean in the next centuries). Right now, establishing a base on Mars would be as useful as acquiring a multi-billion dollars aquarium.
I would much rather see an influx of funds and research time into long-term terraformation, done by boring scientists in boring white coats, behind their boring chemistry set, comfortably located in a boring, earthly research center. Actually, I'd much rather see all those funds go into a research field that could, in the foreseable future, actually change our civilization, such as cognitive science.
As has been pointed out already in this very thread, the Apollo program gave us technology that we use every day. It could be argued that we are using it right now.
It's not simply a matter of being on Mars. I'm referring more to the innovations that would get us there.
No it gave us Tang, a cool bar code system, and velcro. Everything else would have been developed just fine on its own.
No the space race did not develop computer technology. Sorry, if we relied on NASA for computer technology, we would be back with IBMs using 486s.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/16 13:46:20
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
What benefit would that be? Apart from nationalistic bs, what does a Mars colony get you that an Antarctic colony doesn't?
Because it's...in...SPAAAAAAACE!
I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid. As in *really* wanted to be one, at least until I realized that job requires a technical and scientific background that's really beyond me. (Ultimately, I'm a creative person...math sucks!) So I get the romantic factor involved with space travel, I really do.
But I've come to realize that it just doesn't make sense to invest heavily into manned space flight. There aren't any compelling arguments for it beyond the romantic one, as plenty of others here have illustrated. I think that romance is still worth something, but not the untold billions it would take to get people to Mars and back. Undertaking that right now would be the equivalent of the Moon landing, which was an utterly amazing achievement but ultimately an Evel Knievel stunt..."look what we can do!"
When we're ready to actually DO something on/with Mars with a clear long-term objective and real payoff -- and landing people there is part of that -- then I'll be on board with it. I don't think I'm going to live that long, however.
How about making this a general space flight/exploration thread? I guess this latest news story is kind of related in that sending a rover to the moon is no small technical accomplishment.
Good to hear that the ESA have been involved in this also, helping with the transmissions and telemetry of the rocket in transit and during the approach and landing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ++EDIT++ Have changed the title of the thread as the previous one wasn't really encompassing enough (or apt for that matter).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/14 19:19:36
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
What benefit would that be? Apart from nationalistic bs, what does a Mars colony get you that an Antarctic colony doesn't?
Pretty much everything in this video.
The Ability to construct a self sustaining colony on mars and to one day terraform the planet. Will help to ensure the survival of our species.
"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
1k
2013/12/15 01:09:05
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Frazzled wrote: No it gave us Tang, a cool bar code system, and velcro. Everything else would have been developed just fine on its own.
No the space race did not develop computer technology. Sorry, if we relied on NASA for computer technology, we would be back with IBMs using 486s.
NASA did not invent Tang, it was invented in General Foods in 1957; Velcro was invented by Swiss engineer George de Mestra in 1948; and the "cool barcode system" was developed for the Space Shuttle program, not Apollo. While we are at it, NASA didn't pay millions (or billions, depending on the story) to develop a "space pen" while the Soviets used pencils. They also didn't invent Teflon, cordless power tools, smoke detectors, or quartz clocks. Hope that clears the air.
There are plenty of books out there detailing what technology advances occurred as a direct result of the Space Race and computers (specifically the integrated circuit) are generally on top of the lists.
How about making this a general space flight/exploration thread? I guess this latest news story is kind of related in that sending a rover to the moon is no small technical accomplishment.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2013/12/15 07:07:59
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Ninjacommando wrote: The Ability to construct a self sustaining colony on mars and to one day terraform the planet. Will help to ensure the survival of our species.
If Mars is ever going to be a lifeboat for the human race, it will be after we have developed the technology necessary for mass interplanetary transport. But that same technology will make it far easier to build the colony in the first place. Going to Mars half cocked will not achieve the goals you suggest. It's like you're building a house, but you're too impatient to put down the foundation first.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/12/15 07:34:23
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
Monster Rain wrote: I'm not surprised that there are unimaginative Luddites out there that don't see the benefit of attempting to reach or colonize another planet.
What benefit would that be? Apart from nationalistic bs, what does a Mars colony get you that an Antarctic colony doesn't?
Ninjacommando wrote: The Ability to construct a self sustaining colony on mars and to one day terraform the planet. Will help to ensure the survival of our species.
If Mars is ever going to be a lifeboat for the human race, it will be after we have developed the technology necessary for mass interplanetary transport. But that same technology will make it far easier to build the colony in the first place. Going to Mars half cocked will not achieve the goals you suggest. It's like you're building a house, but you're too impatient to put down the foundation first.
Well people are working on, and have a working prototype IIRC, of an Ion drive which would make going back and forth fairly easy.
The real limitation is getting a viable surface to orbit/orbit to surface transport. Something that is reusable and doesn't need massive rocket boosters to achieve escape velocity.
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Ninjacommando wrote: The Ability to construct a self sustaining colony on mars and to one day terraform the planet. Will help to ensure the survival of our species.
If Mars is ever going to be a lifeboat for the human race, it will be after we have developed the technology necessary for mass interplanetary transport. But that same technology will make it far easier to build the colony in the first place. Going to Mars half cocked will not achieve the goals you suggest. It's like you're building a house, but you're too impatient to put down the foundation first.
Getting to Mars 'half cocked', as you say, is part of the process. We didn't put man on the moon on our first journey beyond our planet's atmosphere.
2013/12/15 17:15:26
Subject: 'Columbus didn't wait; nor should we' - the journey to Mars
hotsauceman1 wrote: How do you notk now there are things in space that will do worse? Like turn you into their own personal breeder or something
Like turn you into their own personal breeder
Personal Breeder
Sounds kinky
Can I get a List of things we need to "Fix" on our planet before we go to mars?
"I LIEK CHOCOLATE MILK" - Batman
"It exist because it needs to. Because its not the tank the imperium deserve but the one it needs right now . So it wont complain because it can take it. Because they're not our normal tank. It is a silent guardian, a watchful protector . A leman russ!" - Ilove40k
3k
2k
/ 1k
1k
2013/12/16 00:18:17
Subject: The Space exploration & technology discussion thread