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An IC always counts as a seperate unit when calculating what can start in reserves. You can put everything in drop pods, but you cannot add any IC's to those things, or fliers, as per page 124 in the BRB.

Most people don't know about this, and to drive the point home the adepticon and nova FAQ's have a specific FAQ telling you that you can do this legally, but you can't as per the rulebook, mostly because they only FAQ things they want to, the way they want to at the time.

 juraigamer wrote:
An IC always counts as a seperate unit when calculating what can start in reserves. You can put everything in drop pods, but you cannot add any IC's to those things, or fliers, as per page 124 in the BRB.

Most people don't know about this, and to drive the point home the adepticon and nova FAQ's have a specific FAQ telling you that you can do this legally, but you can't as per the rulebook, mostly because they only FAQ things they want to, the way they want to at the time.

The IC is a separate unit for those calculations.
The IC is embarked on a transport that must start in Reserves.
Therefore the separate IC unit does not count towards the total.

It's the actual rules.

It says it on the page specified. An IC is always counted as a separate unit, even if it joins a unit. 9 tacticals and an attached IC is 1 unit reserve, that needs 1 unit on the table to legally play.

 juraigamer wrote:
It says it on the page specified. An IC is always counted as a separate unit, even if it joins a unit. 9 tacticals and an attached IC is 1 unit reserve, that needs 1 unit on the table to legally play.

He absolutely counts as a separate unit.
Is that unit embarked on a transport that must start in Reserves?

What page is the "no units on table = victory" rules on?
I'm a bit pissed and cannot remember.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What page is the "no units on table = victory" rules on?
I'm a bit pissed and cannot remember.

122 iirc

 juraigamer wrote:
An IC always counts as a seperate unit when calculating what can start in reserves. You can put everything in drop pods, but you cannot add any IC's to those things, or fliers, as per page 124 in the BRB.

Yes, an Independent Character counts as a separate unit when calculating what can start in Reserves. However, the Deep Strike special rule (p 36) modifies the basic rules: "When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." If the IC is embarked upon a Drop Pod, it's not part of the calculation for determining how many units can start in reserve.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that you can't add ICs to units embarked upon transports in reserve. It's certainly not on page 124. In the last paragraph of the first column, we are told that we may join ICs to units in reserve and that we may embark units upon transports in reserve. The rules for ICs joining a unit can be found under the Independent Character special rule (p 39), where we are told that an IC joined to a unit counts as part of that unit for "all rules purposes." That means that they can embark upon transports (and even dedicated transports) with the units they are joined to. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, page 124 seems to say the opposite of what you're claiming.

Once a unit in reserve and any attached ICs are embarked upon a Drop Pod, the unit and the ICs cease to exist for the purpose of calculating what may be kept in reserve. The Deep Strike rule is clear on that.

Flyers are a different story. Unless there's a rule I have missed, flyers are ignored for the purpose of calculating reserves, but the models embarked upon them are not. A unit with an IC joined to it would count as two units when calculating the number of units that may be kept in reserve.

Youngblood13,

The last page of the Basic Rule Book's Frequently Asked Questions states that any model on a transport that must begin in reserves do not count towards the total. A flyer is even brought up as one of the examples of a transport that must begin in reserve, so it is hard to state that flyers where not intended with this Frequently Asked Question and answer. As these are meant to clarify the rules, though honestly I have my doubt over how well the Frequently Asked Questions do that, it does mean any unit which begins on a transport in reserves does not count towards the reserve limit regardless if it is a dedicated transport, one that starts with deep strike or any other factor concerning said transportation.

The last page of the Basic Rule Book's Frequently Asked Questions states that any model on a transport that must begin in reserves do not count towards the total. A flyer is even brought up as one of the examples of a transport that must begin in reserve, so it is hard to state that flyers where not intended with this Frequently Asked Question and answer. As these are meant to clarify the rules, though honestly I have my doubt over how well the Frequently Asked Questions do that, it does mean any unit which begins on a transport that must begin in reserves does not count towards the reserve limit regardless if it is a dedicated transport, one that starts with deep strike or any other factor concerning said transportation.

I fixed that for you. Transports that can begin in reserve but may also begin on the table (such as rhinos and land raiders) most certainly do count towards the limit.

Thank you for that, indeed it was an oversight.

JinxDragon,

I must have read that entry four or five times and never noticed the Valkyrie example. Thanks!

I agree completely about FAQs sometimes confusing things. In this case, what I would have liked to see was errata or an addendum that modified the language on page 124, akin to the parenthetical under the Deep Strike entry, but what can you do?

The fact the Valkyrie was tacked on as an example, one which doesn't fit the question very well or the rules prior to this question, makes me feel as if the person answering it was manipulated into providing an answer without realizing how far reaching that answer would be. There are several ways to load a question, and not all of them are designed to present only two negative outcomes, after all. Some loaded questions are designed to get the answer you want, even if it might not be the correct one. I keep getting the feeling about this particular answer, that it was loaded in order to make it easier for flyer based lists to start with a higher end number of units in reserve then would otherwise be allowed.

So I too would of liked to see it as errata, or at least explained in more details then just a simple 'no.' It feels rushed and makes me wonder if the answer even took the examples into account, or if they where simply focusing on the 'must begin in reserve' part of the question. Yet because the example included a flyer that was clearly not a dedicated transport, it expanded on the existing rule to include things that would otherwise have not been covered.

Defiantly something that should of been explained with errata or the very least more then a single word answer!

ignore this~ dem mods

The deep strike rules do not override the more specific IC rules regarding reserves as listed on page 124. It doesn't matter if the other passage says anything unless it is as specific as well. The deep strike rules on page 36 are just that, the deep strike rules. Page 124 deals with reserves.

 juraigamer wrote:
The deep strike rules do not override the more specific IC rules regarding reserves as listed on page 124. It doesn't matter if the other passage says anything unless it is as specific as well. The deep strike rules on page 36 are just that, the deep strike rules. Page 124 deals with reserves.

What are you addressing here? It's not clear.

IC attached to a 5 man C: SM unit in a Drop Pod. How many units does that count as - 1 or 0?

Counts as 0 units in reserve, 1 if it had attached IC. Page 124.

Actually 2
But since they both are embarked on a transport, they count as zero when we have to determine the maximum you can Reserve.

Kangodo wrote:
Actually 2
But since they both are embarked on a transport that must start in reserve, they count as zero when we have to determine the maximum you can Reserve.

Fixed that for you .

Juraigamer: If a model/unit is embarked on a transport that must start in reserve (Flyers, Drop Pods, etc.) the model/unit is not counted towards the number of units that can begin in Reserve.


So if an IC is attached to a unit that has a transport that does need to start in reserve they are counted as three units towards the max reserves. Example: SM Captain + Tactical Squad + Rhino.
If an IC is attached to a unit that has a transport that must start in reserve they are counted as zero units toward the max reserves. Example: SM Captain + Tactical Squad + Dreadnought + Stormraven.

Note that it does not matter if the transport is a dedicated transport. Only that it must start in reserve.

 juraigamer wrote:
The deep strike rules do not override the more specific IC rules regarding reserves as listed on page 124. It doesn't matter if the other passage says anything unless it is as specific as well. The deep strike rules on page 36 are just that, the deep strike rules. Page 124 deals with reserves.

Nobody is saying that they do.

Yes, the IC counts as a separate unit when declaring Reserves. However, as per the rules for models in vehicles that must start in reserve, so long as he is in such a vehicle he is a separate unit that doesn't count towards the total units in reserve.

The rules conflict. Generally models starting in reserve and the model in them don't count towards the reserve limit, but it's specifically stated on page 124 that IC's always count as a separate unit. Always. Regardless of what page 36 says.

It even goes into further detail stating they always count as a single unit even if they join another unit.

As far as I can tell, the part about IC's always counting takes precedence over the general "models in vehicle that must start in reserve don't count"

I'm not arguing about page 36, I'm stating page 124 is being ignored when dealing with attached IC's.

It even mentions "a unit and it's dedicated transport" when discussing what counts towards the limit.

Finally it doesn't matter what page 39 says about independent characters, because of the part about them counting as a separate unit, regardless of joining.

The math is quite simple for this. Tactical + IC + drop pod equals three units in reserves but the deepstrike rules supported by an FAQ says you now multiply that whole thing by ZERO. (1+1+1)X 0 equals Zero.

It doesn't matter that they are a separate unit, the question is are they embarked on a transport that must start the game in reserve?

Yes, ICs always count as a separate unit for calculating reserves, but so long as they are embarked upon a transport that must start the game in reserves they are not counted as a unit in reserves making an all drop pod/flyer list possible. This is established in the BRB.

It was pretty clear before, but the FAQ has since laid the issue to rest without question.

BRB FAQ 1.5 Pg10

Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves?
(p124)
A: No.

Is an IC attached to a unit in a Drop Pod, a vehicle that must start the game in reserves, counted towards the number of units that can be placed in Reserves?

No

Dead. Horse. Beat.

Juraigamer, you're still missing the point. There is no conflict. The rules say that ICs always count as a separate unit for reserves. They don't say that they always count towards the number of units that you can have in reserves.

Yes, the IC is a separate unit. But that won't matter if another rule says not to count him towards your reserves total.

A Dalmatian is always a separate kind of dog to a Bull Terrier... But if you're only counting dogs that don't have short hair, you're still never going to count the Dalmatian.

Fine whatever guys, It's like no one reads the rulebook, only quotes others and FAQ's.

I'm still sticking with the facts of what page 124 says makes a full reserve impossible unless you don't have any IC's. Regardless (as it says)

 juraigamer wrote:
Fine whatever guys, It's like no one reads the rulebook, only quotes others and FAQ's.

I'm still sticking with the facts of what page 124 says makes a full reserve impossible unless you don't have any IC's. Regardless (as it says)

Except it doesn't say that.
You've failed to quote that and you're literally ignoring quoted rules that prove you wrong. What more do you want?

 juraigamer wrote:
Fine whatever guys, It's like no one reads the rulebook, only quotes others and FAQ's.

I'm still sticking with the facts of what page 124 says makes a full reserve impossible unless you don't have any IC's. Regardless (as it says)

People have listened to what you have said and also read the rule book. You are right, IC's count as another unit for the purposes of calculating reserves, even if with another unit. Nobody is denying this.

However, this doesn't change the fact that the 'FAQ on transports that must start play in reserves' clearly states that the unit inside the drop pod, as well as the pod itself, do not count when calculating the reserves limit.

An IC alone in a drop pod wont count, a squad of troops wont count, so why would joining the IC to the squad in the pod suddenly change the result?

If it wasn't a unit that must be kept in reserves, A captain with terminators in a landraider for example, then you would be correct and it would count as 2 units on the board.


OT: Thanks for the info on player and game turns guys, I had always played it as end of the player turn when determining if a game was won due to no models on the board.

OT: Thanks for the info on player and game turns guys, I had always played it as end of the player turn when determining if a game was won due to no models on the board

So you really played that the old Daemon codex auto lost if they didn't go first?

Back on topic I think this has been done to death but I think all reasonable and intelligent people can read the thread and conclude that the all DP army is legal.

 FlingitNow wrote:

OT: Thanks for the info on player and game turns guys, I had always played it as end of the player turn when determining if a game was won due to no models on the board

So you really played that the old Daemon codex auto lost if they didn't go first?

maybe he never played against a Daemon army in 6th ed before the new codex dropped.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

OT: Thanks for the info on player and game turns guys, I had always played it as end of the player turn when determining if a game was won due to no models on the board

So you really played that the old Daemon codex auto lost if they didn't go first?

maybe he never played against a Daemon army in 6th ed before the new codex dropped.

Yeah this, just no one I played against ran daemons. Now that you say it that way it does sound a little silly.