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Story bits (which, in the BRB, White Dwarf, and Codices, really aren't as frequent as you make them out to be, compared to "historical" or descriptive accounts) are there because they're fun/enjoyable to read. The way I see it, the "fly on the wall" or "inside a character's head" makes more sense if you compare this to folklore as told by sages or storytellers, as ultimately you could use exactly the same narrative style in real life to pass on something - and this way it at least fits to Marc Gascogne's explanation.

The Index Astartes article on the Space Wolves, for example, even specifically mentions this approach for the section about Russ' disappearance: "a direct transcription of Bjorn's account as recorded by Vagnai Ravenmane". So basically, word of mouth rather than fact, in spite of the material being presented as the latter (if one were to miss that disclaimer).

 Mezmerro wrote:
Most stars in the Galaxy have no planets,

Although we do not know for sure, current astronomy stuff is saying the exact opposite.

 Mezmerro wrote:
most planets are uninhabitable

We certainly don't know this at all. However, it begs the question: uninhabitable by who? Even on our planet we have areas that are populated... just not by humans (e.g: the ocean).

 Mezmerro wrote:
, and most inhabitable planets aren't even belong to Imperuim. It is near the billion of imperial worlds, with most of them being small mining/agri worlds with the population below the billion, and only few percents are those really worth fighting for. Even then, though, there is like one marine per ten major worlds.

This part was better.

they should just multiply everything by a hundred and it'd work. 10 million marines pre heresy, a hundred thousand after. Now that's a nice convincingly effective number.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
'lo thar

I was just reading about how the codex basically says that no chapter should have much more that 1000 marines so that no-one takes control of enough marines to cause too much damage should they go rouge, with there being around and under 1000 chapters, making about 1,000,000 marines at any one time.. I agree with the principle of not letting anyone get too many marines but only 1000? I'm sorry but even though space marines are the shiz 1,000,000 marines to watch the galaxy? Do they actually know how big the galaxy is? Because here is how big; there is only one space marine for each three hundred thousand stars. Sure, there are imperial guard, but have the EVER actually fought off and invading force without first losing half the planet?

Anyways, I was wondering why they don't just have 1000 chapters of 10,000 or 100,000 space marines? That way sure, 100,000 might go rogue, but you have several million of them waiting to kill those traitors.

Food for thought, all replies welcome unless you're a racist or Eskimo.

Ok, fine Eskimos are all right, just don't stink up the place

40k scale makes no sense, it is a space fantasy rather than science fiction. This may be seen in the way worldwide (or larger) battles are decided by swordfights between personally opposed protagonists. Yes, if you had proper scale you would need at least a few divisions of soldiers, even superhuman ones, to make any difference to a worldwide conflict. But it is not a proper scale. So when the space marines rock up, they fly to the planet, everything is within a few tactical bounds of their landing site, they kill the bad guy, boom, the war is over. Really, it is not supposed to be an examination of conflict on a galactic scale, its just an excuse for chainsaw swords and power-bayonet charges.

I just multiply all listed force numbers for everything by a thousand or so and everything makes sense now.

 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:


40k scale makes no sense, it is a space fantasy rather than science fiction. This may be seen in the way worldwide (or larger) battles are decided by swordfights between personally opposed protagonists. Yes, if you had proper scale you would need at least a few divisions of soldiers, even superhuman ones, to make any difference to a worldwide conflict. But it is not a proper scale. So when the space marines rock up, they fly to the planet, everything is within a few tactical bounds of their landing site, they kill the bad guy, boom, the war is over. Really, it is not supposed to be an examination of conflict on a galactic scale, its just an excuse for chainsaw swords and power-bayonet charges.

 darthnatus wrote:

Puscifer wrote:



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 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

That isn't canon and they had IG and massive weapons on the planet.

I disagree my friend, anything with the official GW logo on it is canon, whether that canon is true or false is never fully revealed, but in the game you ARE running SPEC OPS, your not holding the line against the orks.

P.S in fluff marines wade through fire fights and all kinds of death, 1 marine is rough about 1k guardsman, they are considered lords by guardsman, yada yada yada. If they made the marine in the TT as strong as the marines in the fluff you would have armies of 10-20 marine models at around 2k points. also, several books I have read have marines dieing "by the hundreds, or Handfuls of marines falling" very weird. These usually come from fighting chaos marines though as they wade through just about anything else. In some books they even stand on top of land raiders firing their many multi lasers. haha

1 marine is rough about 1k guardsman

Ten guardsmen, according to Rogal Dorn. Not a thousand.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

 Melissia wrote:

1 marine is rough about 1k guardsman

Ten guardsmen, according to Rogal Dorn. Not a thousand.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

Codex space wolves claims this as well

Guys, your forgetting, 1k MARINES, most chapters have hundreds of normal humans piloting spacecraft, and possibly armor. in the fluff marines DO NOT FEAR laser rifles, as they literally bounce off there armor fluff wise. In the fluff one marine could potentially take out a squad or two of boyz (not including a nob) and keep going. Hell a member of the BA death company took out a pre-heresy dreadnaught by himself while surrounded by bloodletters. also, marines DO hold the line, they will strike and press forward driving the enemy back, or hold -KEY- positions. If the position is deemed key marines will not fall back. but it would take a round from our tanks to actually hurt a marine from the fluff. Then again lots of fluff books have marines dieing by hundreds and riding on top of land raiders while firing their many multilasers.

As said before, Chapters are so small because of the Horus Heresy.

Also, 100 Marines doesn't sound like very much, but remember that they probably showed up in a Strike Cruiser that is in orbit. It can level most of a major city in one salvo of it's bombardment cannons.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
As said before, Chapters are so small because of the Horus Heresy.

Also, 100 Marines doesn't sound like very much, but remember that they probably showed up in a Strike Cruiser that is in orbit. It can level most of a major city in one salvo of it's bombardment cannons.

And let us not forget how big a major city is in 40k.

1,000 marines may not sound like alot. But considering their assets and the support they have could destroy entire systems if they wished.
10,000 marines is quite big and could easily control an entire sector.
But this is a safety precaution in order to ensure no man controls a legion. Legions are terrifyingly powerful and could way low entire empires and almost lead to the destruction of the imperium.

Plus let us not forget the degradation of the geneseed from multiple uses. over 10k years the geneseeds have become unstable, with 10,000 astartes to use it on the geneseeds and many chapters would cease to exist because of this. Hence why most chapters stay around 1,200 or less.

This would also decrease the effectiveness of the Astartes due to a psychological effect (which I forget what you call it). The less of them there are the better the more they can achieve. They now function as elite spearheads that are meant to kill leaders, and cut the head of the snake before it can do as much damage.

raiden wrote:Guys, your forgetting, 1k MARINES, most chapters have hundreds of normal humans piloting spacecraft, and possibly armor. in the fluff marines DO NOT FEAR laser rifles, as they literally bounce off there armor fluff wise

Not in GW's own fluff. Neither the bits about human pilots, nor power armour protection.

Then again, in GW's fluff the Marines are also not treated as line troops who are supposed to throw back entire armies on their own, but rather are used as highly mobile strike forces who generally don't commit to a fight where they do not have the advantage. If you want to bring the hammer, that's what the Imperial Guard is for. Marines are about sabotaging strategic objectives, killing enemy leaders, and multiplying the combat value of nearby Guardsmen by allowing them to advance with fewer losses.

 Lynata wrote:

raiden wrote:Guys, your forgetting, 1k MARINES, most chapters have hundreds of normal humans piloting spacecraft, and possibly armor. in the fluff marines DO NOT FEAR laser rifles, as they literally bounce off there armor fluff wise

Not in GW's own fluff. Neither the bits about human pilots, nor power armour protection.

Then again, in GW's fluff the Marines are also not treated as line troops who are supposed to throw back entire armies on their own, but rather are used as highly mobile strike forces who generally don't commit to a fight where they do not have the advantage. If you want to bring the hammer, that's what the Imperial Guard is for. Marines are about sabotaging strategic objectives, killing enemy leaders, and multiplying the combat value of nearby Guardsmen by allowing them to advance with fewer losses.

There are Human Serfs and some human pilots that pilot the space-craft. Which does not include ravens, thunderhawks, stormhawks, or stormtalons. Mostly they pilot the Cobras, and small frigate vessels. The Astartes may command them, but they also have hundreds if not thousands of hands to maintain the ships and reload the weaponry. They are the professionals, that have had countless generations of their family serve with the Astartes.

I still beg to differ, if you read space marine codexes you find that IG play only supporting roles, in battle for macragge the only IG role being played was the imperial fleet arriving in time to trap the hive fleet between them and the smurf fleet. as said, just because GW doesn't right it does not mean its not cannon. anything with a GW logo has been OKED. hell even the codex fluffs contradict each other. Its all propaganda anyway though. but in everything I have read marines are the first in, and last out. (if they are there at the time) yes they do lots of spec ops when they CAN let IG do the main fighting. but many times they can't and don't

Asherian Command wrote:There are Human Serfs and some human pilots that pilot the space-craft. Which does not include ravens, thunderhawks, stormhawks, or stormtalons.

Yeah, I misread that as referring to the flyers, probably because ground vehicles were mentioned after that, even though GW has explicitly written down who is driving those.

I certainly agree with the capital ships being manned and even nominally commanded by Chapter Serfs - I see the Strike Cruisers like a sort of "taxi" for the Marine companies, with the Company Captain being treated like a sort of Admiral when he boards the ship (meaning, him not assuming direct command of the vessel, but telling the human naval captain what to do, and letting the details of how to accomplish it to him).

raiden wrote:yes they do lots of spec ops when they CAN let IG do the main fighting. but many times they can't and don't

This much is true! I'm just cautioning against those individual accounts - which seem to be presented more often than their general description - to override the perception of what they are meant to do. Perhaps the very reason we read about those incidents is because they were epic exceptions where an "oh gak" situation was turned around in spite of all the odds?

I've provided GW quotes regarding the Space Marines having to rely on the Imperial Guard for bigger battles - but as you said, the fluff is pretty much about cherrypicking according to personal preferences. I'm just here to quote what it says in the studio books, as a sort of counter-balance to all those who reference BL novels or the Relic computer game.

 Melissia wrote:

1 marine is rough about 1k guardsman

Ten guardsmen, according to Rogal Dorn. Not a thousand.

"Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops"

Or if you're anthony reynolds, you, some cultists, and a titan demi-legion can be winning against the loyalists even if you're at a one to TWO MILLION numerical disadvantage because you're a son of Lorgar and they're just the puny Imperial Guard, even if there are fourteen billion of them.

Better watch out for those White Consul space marines you outnumber twenty three to one though.

 Omegus wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Oh yes - but "unfortunately" this is to be expected, given the format this information is presented to us.

Of course, except for some BRB entries copy and pasted from prior editions and the Index Astartes articles, the majority of the information we get is not presented that way at all. Very frequently we're a fly on the wall, or inside the character's head. We just get the potato head "build your own unique canon out of this pile of crap" approach, because it's easier for GW than competence.

I mean, we're supposed to assume that all Marines have a Nixonian compulsion to record everything they say and do, complete with detailed descriptions of settings and moods and the thoughts and emotions of others, and even though they are frequently torn apart in the warp, eaten and turned to poo by gribblies, or utterly annihilated by whatever megaweapon, these records somehow survive and are recovered by people who further mystify and embellish them even though they would be classified or destroyed per usual Imperial MO.

Hey, don't hate on the parchment. That's some pretty strong stuff. Why do you think Space Marines cover themselves in it?

 Kain wrote:
Or if you're anthony reynolds, you, some cultists, and a titan demi-legion can be winning against the loyalists even if you're at a one to TWO MILLION numerical disadvantage because you're a son of Lorgar and they're just the puny Imperial Guard, even if there are fourteen billion of them.

The Imperial Guard didn't exist in Lorgar's days.

In my view, the current Imperial Guard is far more effective than the Imperial Army was during the Horus Heresy-- after all, it has to be. It's not relying upon Space Marines, it's relying upon its own forces almost exclusively. And as a result, it's honed its tactics and strategies over the course of ten thousand years of constant warfare, and is an efficient military machine (in spite of its reputation) capable of achieving victory in the overwhelming majority of its wars-- thus allowing the continued existence of the Imperium in the absence of the Astartes legions.

Including victories fighting off traitor Astartes and their cults.

 Kain wrote:
I just multiply all listed force numbers for everything by a thousand or so and everything makes sense now.

with an entire galaxy not even multipling by 1000 is enough. 1 million soldiers in a chapter might sound like a lot but they would not be able to conquer a developed world in 40k. 1 million soldiers isnt even that many on today's earth. The US, China, North Korea, Russia, India, and South Korea all have 1 million+ armies. The world in total has ~60 million troops. Now with advanced weapons and genetic engineering, sure they could probably conquer earth today. But in 40k there would be worlds with 50-100 billion people. Even if they had a proportion of military similar to what our earth has in peace time they would have .5-1 Billion soldiers with the same advanced weaponry. That would mean that even a whole chapter could not conquer a hive world on their own. In the fluff a whole chapter is rarely together, they are scattered to the wind fighting as companies. A militerized world might have 5-10 billion soliders in their PDF and a chapter would have no chance.

Well at least now we know that any person fielding more then 1000 space marines in a single army is heading a major risk to the emperor and should be purged immediately!

Hang on... it was even less believible during the great crusade! There were only roughly twice as many marines. 18 legions, some numbering under 100,000 some numbering more than 100,000. Call it close to two million. Rather than being the surgical strike, or the hit and run force, they were the forefront force with supporting guard. Plus they were conquering a whole galaxy! At a very rapid pace. There is even less chance that legions could have upkept their numbers at that rate as they forged across the galaxy.
Furthermore think about second founding chapters. The Ultermarines, despite Calth, are recorded to have not been very badly hit during the HH. Yet they only had 12 second founding chapters. So out of 150,000 legion marines (can't remember where I read that), only 13,000 survived? Less that 10%? And not only were they more numerous at the start but they were the least badly hit? Makes no sense!
Salamanders - no second founding. Iron Hands and Raven Guard obviously had few for obvious reasons. Fists, Angels, and Scars are noted to have had only about a half dozen after their defense of terra. If we average it at 5/6 and include the original chapter we are talking about 6 or 7 × 9... so between 54 and 63 chapters or between 54,000 and 63,000 loyalist marines left after the Heresy. Not only must it have took a while to get that up to a million, but think about this, the traitor legions LOST.... which would suggest that after throwing themselves at the walls of the imperial palace they had even fewer marines left (consider the purges as well where some chapters, Istivann III comes to mind, slaughtered upto a third of their own number)... so lets imagine this is the case, and their forces have been doubled (generously) by chapters which have turned since (think we may struggle to find 50chapters that did in the lore) - we are to believe 100 odd thousand corrupted marines are supposed to be the biggest threat to the imperium! Hell... when the astral claws revolted huron had at least 5k marines and a huge legion of guard in rebellion and that only threatened a subsector, so why would only 20 times that threaten the entire galaxy?

Daemons and cultists.

Okay, I wouldn't call it "threaten the galaxy", but definitively "threaten the Imperium". Chaos can be a powerful force not only because of the purely martial might of its armies, but also the morale effect on the Imperial citizenry. How big is the chance that your average Imperial world has a cell of Eldar, Tau or Necron sympathisers on it? Compared to Chaos? After the First War of Armageddon it was considered "necessary" to sterilise an entire planet's population - and that was far from something like, say, the 13th Black Crusade. The hive world of Subiaco Diablo, for example, was plunged into chaos not because of an actual invasion, but because the Death Guard(?) released some sort of plague that turned everyone into zombies (see a small story here). Just an example of what you have to account for when facing Chaos - any sort of Chaos, including CSM.

Then again, in GW's fluff the Marines are also not treated as line troops who are supposed to throw back entire armies on their own, but rather are used as highly mobile strike forces who generally don't commit to a fight where they do not have the advantage. If you want to bring the hammer, that's what the Imperial Guard is for. Marines are about sabotaging strategic objectives, killing enemy leaders, and multiplying the combat value of nearby Guardsmen by allowing them to advance with fewer losses.

But the problem with that is that you look at a space marine and he seems to be, and is, about as subtle and careful as a rhinocerous (yellow red and blue are not colours known for their camouflaging ablities). If they wanted to be more effective at the surgical strike tactics then they would forsake their, if the board game is a good reference, second to best armour, for something that is my lighter, i.e 5 up save, so they can manouver around the place. They would then also have to get genetic enhancements that increase agility, speed ect. rather that muscle mass. And this effectively makes them a cross between the IG and officio assassinorum, nothing like a space marine.

When you want to do a pinpoint attack on someone you don't just drop some living tanks on them. I the Space marines were to be actually worthwhile military assests then they would need grow in numbers by at least 1000% and commit to actual frontline warfare.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:When you want to do a pinpoint attack on someone you don't just drop some living tanks on them.

W-why not?

A Space Marine is, or so I see it, the heaviest concentration of resilience and martial might the Imperium can muster on a single square meter. That's what they are good at, that's how they are used. If you want to be subtle or careful, you either go for Marine Scouts or one of the Imperial Guard's recon units. The operations conducted by the main forces of Space Marines have nothing to do with subtlety, they are about dropping as much hurt on a single weak spot before the enemy has time to react, and then leave before they can be overwhelmed, or if need be at least delay the enemy as long as possible. Although you can throw them into a multitude of operations (and some Chapters probably perform non-standard operations quite regularly, with varying degrees of success), they are first and foremost shock troops, not commandos - yes, there's a difference.

"The Space Marines are the Imperium's elite fighting troops, a core of highly mobile shock troops trained to fight on land and in space. On the battlefield they are expected to take part in the most dangerous and important attacks, to hold their positions no matter how hopeless their situation. Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."
- GW Inquisitor RPG, Adeptus Astartes

thetallestgiraffe wrote:If the Space marines were to be actually worthwhile military assests then they would need grow in numbers by at least 1000% and commit to actual frontline warfare.

I say they are worthwhile, if you use them correctly. Just like the Storm Trooper regiment.

Frontline warfare is what you've got the Guard for. The IoM tried the Astartes once already, it didn't really work out.

Yeah, Space Marines are more efficient and arguably more skilled now than they were in the Horus Heresy, I think.

People talk about the Imperium declining, but honestly, I think a lot of its "modern" organizations are actually BETTER than during the Great Crusade. Including the Astartes chapters, for all their myriad legions of flaws.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:

...I was wondering why they don't just have 1000 chapters of 10,000 or 100,000 space marines? That way sure, 100,000 might go rogue, but you have several million of them waiting to kill those traitors.

Somewhere out there, but definitely not over the rainbow as there are no such nice things in the far future, there's a lore that stated that one of the largest legions during the Horus Heresy (or maybe just the one that's in full strength), the Ultramarine, had only 250,000 marines in strength; There's also a lore that stated that, one of the smallest legions, the Emperor's children, had to spend a long time (implied decades) acting under the Lunar Wolves until they have a large enough force to go on their own.

The maturation and training of an astartes is long and painful. Odds are some aspirants will die from surgical and implant complications, or event suffering from unexpected mutations that only the Emperor's Mercy may salvage them. Many chapters are constantly under-strength because casualties are common in the post-heresy IoM, coupling with the fact that replacing a lost marine within a chapter is a relatively long process. 1,000+ strength is actually not a unreasonable strength, all things considered.

Also, the up-limit of a Codex Astarte Chapter is not 1,000. The Commanding staffs are actually not included within a company's 100 marine counts, also no vehicles are included in the 100 marine limit in the Honour Guards, so each chapter can theoretically have almost half way over 1,000 space marines.

thetallestgiraffe wrote:
'lo thar
I was just reading about how the codex basically says that no chapter should have much more that 1000 marines so that no-one takes control of enough marines to cause too much damage should they go rouge, with there being around and under 1000 chapters, making about 1,000,000 marines at any one time.. I agree with the principle of not letting anyone get too many marines but only 1000? I'm sorry but even though space marines are the shiz 1,000,000 marines to watch the galaxy? Do they actually know how big the galaxy is? Because here is how big; there is only one space marine for each three hundred thousand stars. Sure, there are imperial guard, but have the EVER actually fought off and invading force without first losing half the planet?

Anyways, I was wondering why they don't just have 1000 chapters of 10,000 or 100,000 space marines? That way sure, 100,000 might go rogue, but you have several million of them waiting to kill those traitors.

Because of a cool sounding but not-that-well-thought-out-in-retrospect point in the original Rogue Trader book. 1000 chapters of a 1000 marines.

 Mezmerro wrote:
Most stars in the Galaxy have no planets, most planets are uninhabitable, and most inhabitable planets aren't even belong to Imperuim. It is near the billion of imperial worlds, with most of them being small mining/agri worlds with the population below the billion, and only few percents are those really worth fighting for. Even then, though, there is like one marine per ten major worlds.

There was an article in WD some years ago, might have been a Chapter Approved or one of Jervis' editorials, where they basically explained that many of the human-habited world in the 40k setting may only have one city, or isolated small settlements etc etc, which makes the small numbers we use in our 40k games able to "turn the tide" etcetera. Of ocurse, even with that example, it's mostly handwaving to show how your third-of-a-company of marines on the living room table can save a planet.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

blood lance wrote:
Its never really touched upon how 100 or so space marines (Its typically done by-company rather than by-chapter) constantly save planets, considering that's a force that could barely cover London, let alone entire quarters of space.

Well, in the Space Marine game, a Forge World is beset by an Ork Horde (and subsequently Chaos). To delay and harry enemy forces, they send 3 Marines (and they really didn't even need Leandros!).

Aside from those three being pretty uber, did you notice how many Chaos Space Marines they cut through like butter in the course of the game as well? It essentially uses video game logic.

 Azazelx wrote:

Because of a cool sounding but not-that-well-thought-out-in-retrospect point in the original Rogue Trader book. 1000 chapters of a 1000 marines.

No thought-out is definitely right... considering back in the Rogue Trader book there was a clear reference that the background was inspired by Star Wars, and sported an Inquisitor named Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau:

 Psienesis wrote:

It's one thing for people to see others get wounded in combat... quite another to see a dude covered in the best armor your military can provide literally *explode* in front of you from a single round from a pistol, meanwhile your assault rifle hasn't even chipped the paint on these behemoths, and they've racked up a body-count of 200+ people in four minutes using melee weapons and small-arms.

It depends on what you're taking as "canon". The fluff (and which parts?) or the game (or which of the many 40k games?). Because, I can assure you, in Warhammer 40,000 the tabletop wargame, stub guns and heavy stubbers are quite capable of killing Space Marines.


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 raiden wrote:

P.S in fluff marines wade through fire fights and all kinds of death, 1 marine is rough about 1k guardsman, they are considered lords by guardsman, yada yada yada. If they made the marine in the TT as strong as the marines in the fluff you would have armies of 10-20 marine models at around 2k points. also, several books I have read have marines dieing "by the hundreds, or Handfuls of marines falling" very weird. These usually come from fighting chaos marines though as they wade through just about anything else. In some books they even stand on top of land raiders firing their many multi lasers. haha

This is because the fluff around Marines has become more and more comically exaggerated in the last 25 years. Originally they were larger than a man, but not 8 or 10 foot tall, and all of that Space Marine truly = 1k points has come up through the mythologising of them since then.