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 RiTides wrote:
Ninja'ed Taarnak

GameZone not mentioning any of this is pretty sketchy, though. "No C&D possible" was far from transparent regarding what they had discussed, and been refused permission for, beforehand.

Yup, got me. Lol.

But without manufacture or distribution in the US, did they need permission?

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:
Additionally all of MDP's Trademark assertions should include some verbiage indicating that they are for the US only.

Since we are fairly certain that Gamezone owns the Spanish Trademark, and it is highly unlikely that any of the game components are going to be produced in the US, I also wonder if these folks have any sort of legitimate gripe.

INAL, but I think there is an international agreement for trademarks much like copyrights in either the Paris Convention or NAFTA

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:
Additionally all of MDP's Trademark assertions should include some verbiage indicating that they are for the US only.

Since we are fairly certain that Gamezone owns the Spanish Trademark, and it is highly unlikely that any of the game components are going to be produced in the US, I also wonder if these folks have any sort of legitimate gripe.

INAL, but I think there is an international agreement for trademarks much like copyrights in either the Paris Convention or NAFTA

I know there is some sort of agreement, but I don't remember what exactly it is. So, another question: Whose Trademark would be recognized? There are three separate entities in three separate countries (each likely part of the agreement) who own the "HeroQuest" Trademark. Which takes precedence?

~Eric

Quoting the link and text onto the new page:

 RiTides wrote:

 Hellfury wrote:
Here is Moon Designs response:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1079761/moon-design-publications-official-statement-on-gam

That's a bombshell! They told GameZone ahead of time they wouldnt allow it, but GameZone launched anyway with no word of that. They'd also license the name but won't do so without Hasbro's greenlight. This is dead in the water on Kickstarter and GameZone knew this was likely coming. Crazy! The comments on that BGG link are well worth reading, but here is the text of Moon Design's statement:

Hello all,

We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.

Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.

The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.

The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.

Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.

Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).

Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.

We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.

Regards,
Rick Meints
Moon Design Publications

nkelsch wrote:
Moondesign are a scumbags and their attitude is full of crap claiming they need royalties to protect themselves from an uninterested Hasbro, just in case.

I will gladly pay more for the hassle of a euro-crowd funding to make sure moon design never sees a fething dime. I am fine with deals being reached with hasbro but to hell with moon design.

I agree with this whole heartedly. They've sat on the copyright for 10 years and done nothing with it. This is a dog act by a scumbag, stain of a company. I will go out of my way to ensure no cent of mine ever makes it into their grubby, thieving hands.

 Splod wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Moondesign are a scumbags and their attitude is full of crap claiming they need royalties to protect themselves from an uninterested Hasbro, just in case.

I will gladly pay more for the hassle of a euro-crowd funding to make sure moon design never sees a fething dime. I am fine with deals being reached with hasbro but to hell with moon design.

I agree with this whole heartedly. They've sat on the copyright for 10 years and done nothing with it. This is a dog act by a scumbag, stain of a company. I will go out of my way to ensure no cent of mine ever makes it into their grubby, thieving hands.

http://www.glorantha.com/product/heroquest-core-rules/

Just because its not the Heroquest you want doesn't mean they haven't done anything with their Trademark.

Maybe so, but entirely predictable.

Certainly so from Gamezone's perspective, if they did indeed know all of this beforehand.

Wow... just wow.

Sure doesn't seem like I'll be getting the game that GZ envisioned any time soon.

On the other hand, with all the attention this has garnered, why not scrap the name and come up with their own variation?

They've already got the audience- I say take what's already there, reskin it, rebrand it, and start over again.

If they can give me something similar, which is inspired by Heroquest, I think I'd be alright with that.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

If they can give me something similar, which is inspired by Heroquest, I think I'd be alright with that.

Here ya go:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17226/descent-journeys-in-the-dark

I really don't see this doing anywhere near as well as it did without the HeroQuest name attached.

I really just wanted the furniture from the new edition and am sad that it won't be around anytime soon.

This does seem like a bit of an...unkind...move on Moon Design's part. Really, they think a boardgame using the name HeroQuest would dilute their brand (it won't, everybody already knows what a boardgame named Heroquest is, and many of them have probably never heard of Glorantha). They were planning to make their own boardgame called Heroquest and are worried sales would be impacted (obviously, releasing a boardgame called HeroQuest that is actually a completely different game would definitely have a negative impact on their sales).

It's incredibly interesting to note that Moon Design would have completely backed off if Gamezone had Hasbro's blessing.
Also noticed in the BGG thread: Looks like Moon Design acquired the rights AFTER Gamezone had contacted them about the game.

Surprisingly, this isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened with HeroQuest. Sierra released a computer game back then called Hero's Quest, and ended up changing the name to Quest for Glory after the lawyers got involved (great computer game, by the way).

Yeah, some of the comments over on BGG are pretty... well crazy. Amazing stuff.

Anyways, I'm still hoping for the best... For me that's having Kickstarter give the green light. Though I don't know if that is OK legally for KS.

Ultimately if Gamezone doesn't make another Heroquest (ie the board game everyone knows and associates that name with) then no one was going to. Sounds like Moon Design wants to make a board game... but that wouldn't be "Heroquest" for most people.

My qualms with the KS project were more to do with the sloppy formatting and presentation ( bad English, grammar, formatting, etc ) on the KS page. Almost like applying for a job and having a really bad looking resume... I was hoping that wouldn't mean the final product would follow suite. The artwork and miniature concepts were redeeming, and they did seem receptive to fan/backer comments and feedback via PMs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

It's incredibly interesting to note that Moon Design would have completely backed off if Gamezone had Hasbro's blessing.

Well, that and some sort of fat payment from from Gamezone to Moon Design.

WTF?

"The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark."

followed by

"We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP."

So Moon Design is asserting they own the HeroQuest tm (as proven by the USPTO) then why would they request that Gamezone have permission from Hasbro to use HeroQuest? Does Moon Design also feel the need to ask permission from Hasbro to publish their own HeroQuest materials despite being trademark holders?

I'm going to make the guess that Moon Design knows the value of their brand and is asking for a high percentage of net profits in perpetuity and the rest is smoke and mirrors. I'll make a further guess that if Gamezone agrees to a high licensing fee then the "need" for permission from Hasbro for Gamezone to use Moon Design's tm for US distribution will also disappear.

 judgedoug wrote:
So Moon Design is asserting they own the HeroQuest tm (as proven by the USPTO) then why would they request that Gamezone have permission from Hasbro to use HeroQuest?

CYA, I suppose. Just because you "own" a trademark, copyright, or whatever, doesn't mean someone *still* can't file a C&D or other legal document against you, even one that won't stand up in court. (Has GW sent a C&D against Issaries yet Moon Design evidently doesn't want even the possibility of being taken to court, because this sort of thing costs money. If you read the link to the tumultuous history of who owns what with RuneQuest, you'd see better why MD looks to be taking unusual steps against GZ.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What does Moon Design make?

Enemies?

Yea, when they said no, and GZ moved ahead anyways. Were they surprised this happened?

It wouldn't surprise me now if Hasbro came out stating they had shot down GZ as well.

No amount of facepalm emoticons can illustrate how I feel about this now, and the whole thing (as Judgedoug has said) just feels like a money-grab from Moon Design. 'Sympathise with the fans of the Milton Bradley game' my arse, what an absolute bunch of

It pains me to say it, but looking at this from the long term view perhaps the best thing to do would be for Gamezone just to pay whatever subsidies they are asking and be done with it. After all even 50% of a couple of million would still be a lot and more than enough for GameZone to make a good job of the release and still make money for themselves.

 Pacific wrote:
No amount of facepalm emoticons can illustrate how I feel about this now, and the whole thing (as Judgedoug has said) just feels like a money-grab from Moon Design.

This also looks like a money grab from Gamezone. Considering they have released no miniatures for ages now (the last thing they did were those resin elf spearman, and before that, gods know what), it lends credence to the rumors that they're really just a one-man band punching way above their weight. The atrociously presented campaign page (complete with mangled English and poor previews of what's actually on offer) is another clear warning sign that backers would have done well to heed.

I have little doubt that even if the problems are resolved, the finished product will not meet expectations.

who is lying ¿?¿?

http://www.glorantha.com/background-concerning-suspension-of-gamezones-kickstarter-campaign/


Background concerning suspension of Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign


We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.

Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.

The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.

The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.

Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.

Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).

Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.

We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.

guru wrote:
who is lying ¿?¿?

Neither?

I think the geography is the linchpin here. GZ very actively tried to avoid the US. They hold the Spanish license/IP and ran a Canadian Kickstarter-campaign. Moon Design's statement stresses how Kickstarter, at the end of the day, is a New York-based company subject to US IP laws.

Whatever they will/can/may settle on will look very differently depending on whether they (a) need Moon Design (because US IP is key) or (b) may throw Moon Design a bone (because US IP is optional for distribution).

Dragging Hasbro into it is a bit smoke-&-mirrors IMO, cause (assuming all statements are correct), Hasbro can only say the same thing. In Spain, it's GZ, in the US, it's Moon Design.

I think it speaks volumes that, half a million dollars into the campaign not a whisper had been heard from Hasbro regarding it. You have to imagine that the legal representation of a company of that size would have been all over Gamezone the moment the Kickstarter opened.

Wish Glorantha had some kind of public comments forum, would let them know exactly what I think of them...

I'm a bit disappointed (but not entirely surprised) at all the hate for Moon Designs.

This is a tiny company, producing one of the greatest tabletop RPGs of all time (HeroQuest), for one of the oldest and most revered fantasy worlds ever created (Glorantha; it's right there in the top three most consistent, plausible, complex, deep and fascinating fantasy settings, along with Tekumel and Middle-Earth), working as a labour of love, like most niche gaming businesses.

They're defending the right to a name that's been associated with Gloranthan gaming for more than 30 years. And, as far as we can tell, they've been honest about the whole thing from the start... whereas it sure looks like GZ have been lying from the start.

But of course, everyone wants their anniversary dungeon bash game, so let's hate the company we've never heard of...

 Pacific wrote:


Wish Glorantha had some kind of public comments forum, would let them know exactly what I think of them...

??

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/

Finding the forums for glorantha using glorantha.com/forums isn't that tough.


Than again, I doubt the poor sod moderating those forums will be the one you want to talk to...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
And, as far as we can tell, they've been honest about the whole thing from the start... whereas it sure looks like GZ have been lying from the start.

What did GZ lie about?

They have the rights for Spain (as far as we can tell)
They don't plan to retail in the US (as far as they have told)
They even contacted MD beforehand (which MD admitted)

When MD turned them down, they went ahead with a non-US Kickstarter for a non-US-Retail game. I don't see the issue.

There are plenty of Heroquest-products, entirely unrelated to Glorantha (and pre-dating 1990 Glorantha-Heroquest) out there that don't seem to bother Moon Design at all (e.g. : http://www.heroquest-larp.co.uk/). The only difference, of course, is that the GZ-Heroquest appears to be worth a million dollars or more, and that is the reason MD took a shot.

Just checked and it appears that indigogo is actually headquartered in California. So much for "Moving it to Europe"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiegogo

choasdwarflord wrote:
Just checked and it appears that indigogo is actually headquartered in California. So much for "Moving it to Europe"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiegogo

It's not like Indiegogo and Kickstarter are the only ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_crowd_funding_services

Though I don't think changing the platform addresses the issue.

I mentioned Heroquest LARP already. It's been going since the 80s, IIRC (I know the owner, and have been to some of his events). So it's unlikely Moon Design could bring a successful legal challenge, due to UK IP law and more importantly because it ONLY operates in the UK.

A lot of the problems with this kind of case arise because IP laws were made in the days when boardgames etc. didn't exactly have a global market, unless they became incredibly successful.

GZ said they weren't aware of any legal problems, but they seem to have known since July that Moon Designs had an objection.

It Doesn't until the legal cross country ip issues can be resolved

 silent25 wrote:
Yea, when they said no, and GZ moved ahead anyways. Were they surprised this happened?

It wouldn't surprise me now if Hasbro came out stating they had shot down GZ as well.

Agreed. And GZ forgot to mention that when posting "No chance of a C&D". Even from the company who told you beforehand they wouldn't allow it??

 Zweischneid wrote:
What did GZ lie about?

They said there was no chance of a C&D. They obviously knew - for a fact - that there was a chance, and a good one at that.

They have the rights for Spain (as far as we can tell)
They don't plan to retail in the US (as far as they have told)
They even contacted MD beforehand (which MD admitted)

When MD turned them down, they went ahead with a non-US Kickstarter for a non-US-Retail game. I don't see the issue.

There's no such thing as a non-US Kickstarter. Sure, there are Kickstarters in $other_country_money but since KS is US based, so are all the Kickstarters.

There are plenty of Heroquest-products, entirely unrelated to Glorantha (and pre-dating 1990 Glorantha-Heroquest) out there that don't seem to bother Moon Design at all (e.g. : http://www.heroquest-larp.co.uk/). The only difference, of course, is that the GZ-Heroquest appears to be worth a million dollars or more, and that is the reason MD took a shot.

No, MD took a shot before the kickstarter even opened. Months beforehand actually.
And LARPs and tabletop gaming are different enough to not cause dilution (just like I could have Ford Pencil Company and be safe from lawyers).
But keep hating MD - obviously GZ could do no wrong, despite trying their best to skirt the law at every opportunity.
I'm not saying I don't want a redone Heroquest. I'd love for this one to work out. But GZ did not do everything correct from the beginning and that sunk them.

Zweischneid wrote:

guru wrote:
who is lying ¿?¿?

Neither?

I think the geography is the linchpin here. GZ very actively tried to avoid the US. They hold the Spanish license/IP and ran a Canadian Kickstarter-campaign. Moon Design's statement stresses how Kickstarter, at the end of the day, is a New York-based company subject to US IP laws.

That's why many were initially skeptical/concerned about this one at the start.

Zweischneid wrote:

 Pacific wrote:


Wish Glorantha had some kind of public comments forum, would let them know exactly what I think of them...

??

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/

Finding the forums for glorantha using glorantha.com/forums isn't that tough.


Than again, I doubt the poor sod moderating those forums will be the one you want to talk to...

No doubt about that!