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Ovion, DoW Still has a tech tree, resources, and is an RTS. It's going to be similar to SC and other RTS's because it's relatable.

I know, but that's part of the genre.
Niexists claim is that it was simply a reskin and renaming of these previous titles, with the same buildings and units as the previous games.

 Ovion wrote:
Please tell me more about how Dawn of War is just a rename / reskin of Warcraft / Starcraft / Red Alert:
Warcraft

Spoiler:

Warcraft II

Spoiler:

Warcraft III

Spoiler:

Starcraft

Spoiler:

CnC: Red Alert

Spoiler:

Dawn of War

Spoiler:

Now if you excuse me, after spending 2 episodes of GitS making this and nostalgiaing everywhere, I'm off to reinstall Warcraft II, III, Starcraft, CnC: Tiberium Sun - Firestorm and Dawn of War.
Maybe SupCom.

And for those of you interested, Here's the unit list for SupCom

I love how my point was the similarities of the buildings, and unit production, which you listed for all games except Dawn of War.

Niexist wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Please tell me more about how Dawn of War is just a rename / reskin of Warcraft / Starcraft / Red Alert:
Warcraft

Spoiler:

Warcraft II

Spoiler:

Warcraft III

Spoiler:

Starcraft

Spoiler:

CnC: Red Alert

Spoiler:

Dawn of War

Spoiler:

Now if you excuse me, after spending 2 episodes of GitS making this and nostalgiaing everywhere, I'm off to reinstall Warcraft II, III, Starcraft, CnC: Tiberium Sun - Firestorm and Dawn of War.
Maybe SupCom.

And for those of you interested, Here's the unit list for SupCom

I love how my point was the similarities of the buildings, and unit production, which you listed for all games except Dawn of War.

Clearly Halo is a rip off of DOOM because both involve burly people in space shooting space monsters with space guns.

 Kain wrote:
Clearly Halo is a rip off of DOOM because both involve burly people in space shooting space monsters with space guns.

Actually Halo is a rip-off of Marathon (which was a rip off of Doom because both involved burly people in space shooting space monsters with space guns).

Cyten wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
orkybenji is correct, the publisher no longer exists. Relic was bought by Sega, but whether or not they still plan on making dow3 has not been announced.

So what...all that work already done is scrapped??
Isn't that poor business, wouldn't Sega benefit from funding already existing work than start something new?

Relic did release Company of Heroes 2 after the acquisition happened, but it was already a mostly-done game. We don't really know where DoW3 was in the development cycle (it had not even been officially announced).

Relic still exists as a company, making it luckier then some victims of this deal. Sega acquired them mostly intact precisely because they were one of THQ's well-performing studios, so I expect Relic to come out with DoW3 sometime.

Who know when, though? And it might be a sucky free-to-play smartphone game.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Clearly Halo is a rip off of DOOM because both involve burly people in space shooting space monsters with space guns.

Actually Halo is a rip-off of Marathon (which was a rip off of Doom because both involved burly people in space shooting space monsters with space guns).

The main difference being that it was for Macintosh while Doom was solely for the PC master race.

I'm fairly confident in Relic being there for a Dawn of War 3, even under Sega. Sega owns Creative Assembly (makers of Total War), and they're working on a Warhammer Fantasy game.

Niexist wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Please tell me more about how Dawn of War is just a rename / reskin of Warcraft / Starcraft / Red Alert:
Warcraft

Spoiler:

Warcraft II

Spoiler:

Warcraft III

Spoiler:

Starcraft

Spoiler:

CnC: Red Alert

Spoiler:

Dawn of War

Spoiler:

Now if you excuse me, after spending 2 episodes of GitS making this and nostalgiaing everywhere, I'm off to reinstall Warcraft II, III, Starcraft, CnC: Tiberium Sun - Firestorm and Dawn of War.
Maybe SupCom.

And for those of you interested, Here's the unit list for SupCom

I love how my point was the similarities of the buildings, and unit production, which you listed for all games except Dawn of War.

Yeah, after the other games and spending about 40 minutes on it, and realising what a waste of time it was turning into, I got a little bored.

But the point is, RTS games, on the whole, have unit production and tech trees.
Some have similar things, to some degree.
But having an Armoury and a Barracks (Fairly generic terms I might add) in a game, doesn't make them simply a reskin.

The resource management system of Dawn of War, being Requisition Points and Energy, as well as how you acquired them, is different to pretty much every other RTS I can think of, with others requiring units to mine a finite number of resources.

SupCom is close, in its need for Energy and Mass, but there's still a heavier focus on resource production, and a massive focus on Base Building.

Dawn of War is an interesting take on the genre, with squad based production and resource bonuses for taking strategic locations, rather than resources needign farming and individual units, being manually grouped.

.... and WoW owes its existence to games like UO, Everquest, Lineage, and a half-dozen other MMOs that came out between 3 and 6 years prior to its release. WoW was not the first-to-market MMO, it simply paved over the trail other MMOs had blazed for it.

What I would like to see in DoW3 is a blend of the DoW1 game and the game of DoW2. I want squads of heroes/specific units acting in concert. Don't make me build buildings, but let me find and capture buildings already on the battlefield, which then unlocks one squad of dudes/dudettes that fill some specific role, whether that's heavy weapons, scouts, area-suppression, tank-hunters, whatever. Some of these could, instead, offer upgrades to units you already have.

This way, we get the squad-based action of DoW2, the army building of DoW1 (do I go with capturing the Cathedral for some Chaplain support, or do I capture the Manufactorum for better guns?), and the tactical thinking and massive battles of both games.

 Psienesis wrote:
.... and WoW owes its existence to games like UO, Everquest, Lineage, and a half-dozen other MMOs that came out between 3 and 6 years prior to its release. WoW was not the first-to-market MMO, it simply paved over the trail other MMOs had blazed for it.

What I would like to see in DoW3 is a blend of the DoW1 game and the game of DoW2. I want squads of heroes/specific units acting in concert. Don't make me build buildings, but let me find and capture buildings already on the battlefield, which then unlocks one squad of dudes/dudettes that fill some specific role, whether that's heavy weapons, scouts, area-suppression, tank-hunters, whatever. Some of these could, instead, offer upgrades to units you already have.

This way, we get the squad-based action of DoW2, the army building of DoW1 (do I go with capturing the Cathedral for some Chaplain support, or do I capture the Manufactorum for better guns?), and the tactical thinking and massive battles of both games.

and UO, everquest owe their existance to text-based RPG's called MUD's like Gemstone III. They weren't the first, but before WoW you had MMO's with innovative game ideas, for instance SWG pre-CU, or Earth and Beyond. Even UO/Everquest were entirely different beasts. Since then however they've all followed the same basic premise of WoW with the majority of your experience coming from quest givers with arrows pointing to exactly where you need to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:

Niexist wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
Please tell me more about how Dawn of War is just a rename / reskin of Warcraft / Starcraft / Red Alert:
Warcraft

Spoiler:

Warcraft II

Spoiler:

Warcraft III

Spoiler:

Starcraft

Spoiler:

CnC: Red Alert

Spoiler:

Dawn of War

Spoiler:

Now if you excuse me, after spending 2 episodes of GitS making this and nostalgiaing everywhere, I'm off to reinstall Warcraft II, III, Starcraft, CnC: Tiberium Sun - Firestorm and Dawn of War.
Maybe SupCom.

And for those of you interested, Here's the unit list for SupCom

I love how my point was the similarities of the buildings, and unit production, which you listed for all games except Dawn of War.

Yeah, after the other games and spending about 40 minutes on it, and realising what a waste of time it was turning into, I got a little bored.

But the point is, RTS games, on the whole, have unit production and tech trees.
Some have similar things, to some degree.
But having an Armoury and a Barracks (Fairly generic terms I might add) in a game, doesn't make them simply a reskin.

The resource management system of Dawn of War, being Requisition Points and Energy, as well as how you acquired them, is different to pretty much every other RTS I can think of, with others requiring units to mine a finite number of resources.

SupCom is close, in its need for Energy and Mass, but there's still a heavier focus on resource production, and a massive focus on Base Building.

Dawn of War is an interesting take on the genre, with squad based production and resource bonuses for taking strategic locations, rather than resources needign farming and individual units, being manually grouped.

So since the whole point of your post with the images was to prove how different the games are, please post the structures and show the differences in these structures.

MUDs may have formed the idea of making a graphical, real-time combat game, but the scope of a MUD is small potatoes compared to an MMO from a triple-A studio. I've been in guilds with more members than most MUDs have ever had players.

MUDs also originated in the days of the BBS, when you dialed into the internet using an assigned phone number, and paid long-distance charges if the server you were calling was outside of your area code. They're a relic of a different era of the internet, but they were what they were. They certainly generated the basic concept of taking D&D and making it a visual video game that could be collectively enjoyed by thousands, but they did not really blaze the trail for MMOs in the way the first-gen MMOs blazed the trail for WoW.

Edit: off topic

 Psienesis wrote:
MUDs may have formed the idea of making a graphical, real-time combat game, but the scope of a MUD is small potatoes compared to an MMO from a triple-A studio. I've been in guilds with more members than most MUDs have ever had players.

MUDs also originated in the days of the BBS, when you dialed into the internet using an assigned phone number, and paid long-distance charges if the server you were calling was outside of your area code. They're a relic of a different era of the internet, but they were what they were. They certainly generated the basic concept of taking D&D and making it a visual video game that could be collectively enjoyed by thousands, but they did not really blaze the trail for MMOs in the way the first-gen MMOs blazed the trail for WoW.

Gemstone III was one of, if not the first MUD. It had a player base of over 100,000 accounts when it was on AOL, with 4-5000 logging in at peak hours. It still has an active subscriber base today, with subscription fees going up to 75 dollars a month, something that no MMO could ever get people to pay.. As far as being "small potatoes" Having an actual roleplaying game where you grind when you like to, but also have GM interaction in the form of events, gods visiting(and killing) people, MASSIVE invasions of thousands of creatures on the townships of the game, to me this isn't small potatoes, and a MUD really has what an MMO lacks - character.

It's funny, I have a character in GS3 that I have played for 22 years, probably surpassing a lot of people's age on this message board.

Whoever said that DoW2 Retribution was hero hammer is a bit wrong. I often found myself ditching Adrastia for more storm troopers.

Anyway the problems with DoW2 (which was a good game, easily as good as the first) were all to do with single production structures. If you lost a single unit it threw off your entire build order as you wasted time rebuilding that unit to not get beaten on the ground then, delaying producing more units. The maps in DoW2 felt too big for your forces on the map until you got into team games, but even then there were too many pathways for the enemy to take and you spent a lot of time wondering how units somehow managed to get past all your lines and are capping the requisition points right outside your base and then killing them.

Its telling that Relic went back to base building in CoH2

Gemstone III was one of, if not the first MUD. It had a player base of over 100,000 accounts when it was on AOL, with 4-5000 logging in at peak hours. It still has an active subscriber base today, with subscription fees going up to 75 dollars a month, something that no MMO could ever get people to pay.. As far as being "small potatoes" Having an actual roleplaying game where you grind when you like to, but also have GM interaction in the form of events, gods visiting(and killing) people, MASSIVE invasions of thousands of creatures on the townships of the game, to me this isn't small potatoes, and a MUD really has what an MMO lacks - character.

Not even close, man. There were early MUDs around in the late 70s on certain college networks and ARPANet. True MUDs, available to the public, would start cropping up in the early to mid 80s, with Gemstone showing up in like 1990.

On to Dawn of War Three...

I liked the Ork and IG campaigns from Retribution. Playing as the Eldar in any of the previous titles of the series, though, was terrible. The hit-and-run nature of Eldar warfare is not well-suited to the gameplay style of DOW. They were also super-fragile in Soulstorm and Dark Crusade, simply unfairly so.

Soulstorm and DC, though, were probably my favorite of the entire run, as I think the whole over-view map of territories with their own bonuses and advantages is a cool thing, and could be expanded on in a much bigger way, even for online play (either real-time or turn-by-turn).

I'm a bit disappointed (I shouldn't be) that nobodys responded to my 2 posts that actually pretain to DoW3.

Well, there's nothing really to respond to in them, because you're right. the DoW1 series was a boiler-plate RTS with building things, resource gathering and tech-trees.

It wasn't particularly complex in any of these areas (and was, in fact, almost a straight line... more like a tech-stick than a tree) and really wasn't even particularly required by the game. Building a couple buildings gave you access to things your squads should have had from the get-go... (really, you need some Imperial Relic to train an Apothecary? A blinged-out fortress for a Sergeant?)

DoW1 and its successor titles were a serviceable, competent RTS. They weren't anything new as far as RTS were concerned, though.

I can't believe people here are now discussing what is a "rip-off" of what, the most irrelevant senseless thing anyone could be talking about.
The whole of human endeavor in all areas of life is based on building upon previous ideas.

P.S.
Having a space ship(SM, Tau, IG) as a base of operations is a great idea, but then you must eventually have full access to all of its arsenal and capabilities, not just run around with a couple of guys.

I can't believe people here are now discussing what is a "rip-off" of what, the most irrelevant senseless thing anyone could be talking about.

More irrelevant and senseless than talking about a game of pixel soldiers running around on a screen that is based on a game of plastic soldiers being moved around on a board?

When, by the very same means by which we post on these forums, we can access the sum of all human knowledge?

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, there's nothing really to respond to in them, because you're right. the DoW1 series was a boiler-plate RTS with building things, resource gathering and tech-trees.

It wasn't particularly complex in any of these areas (and was, in fact, almost a straight line... more like a tech-stick than a tree) and really wasn't even particularly required by the game. Building a couple buildings gave you access to things your squads should have had from the get-go... (really, you need some Imperial Relic to train an Apothecary? A blinged-out fortress for a Sergeant?)

DoW1 and its successor titles were a serviceable, competent RTS. They weren't anything new as far as RTS were concerned, though.

Dow's primary innovations was the rudimentary introduction of cover, a very advanced physics engine for an RTS game of the era (knock back and ragdolling for example was virtually *unheard of* for an RTS back then), a shift away from resource gathering units in favor of forcing you to fight if you want the primary resource via capture points, and squad based combat in an era primarily dominated by units being produced in singular amounts even for the largest scale of games.

Even more shocking is that Dawn of War used an unfortunately overlooked prior Relic Game's engine.




Yeah, an RTS game about lab grown abominations that would make PETA weep sweet, sweet tears gave rise to the infinitely more successful dawn of war from it's corpse.

It's a shame that Impossible Creatures wasn't particularly successful, it had an extremely novel concept (how many other RTS games let you design your own units?) and had an interesting plotline.

I enjoyed Impossible Creatures.
It was wonderfully silly.

It was also horribly balanced, and full of glitches. Multiplayer devolved into whoever could get either the most powerful creature type first, or whoever managed to figure out whose getting it and get the counter.

Darn it Kain, stop liking games that I like!

Also I know of no other RTS that lets you design units, but Alpha Centauri is a TBS that does.

DOW 2 sucks.I have never played it and I know that.Why?It has no gorgutz.So it sucks.

Da krimson barun wrote:
DOW 2 sucks.I have never played it and I know that.Why?It has no gorgutz.So it sucks.

Kaptain Bloodflag is a very, very good replacement, along with his krew.

Da krimson barun wrote:
DOW 2 sucks.I have never played it and I know that.Why?It has no gorgutz.So it sucks.

To echo what was said above.... yeah, you missed playing a Freeboota Krew and their Kaptain, Bloodflag.... who is dead 'ard and dread-killy.

Da krimson barun wrote:
DOW 2 sucks.I have never played it and I know that.Why?It has no gorgutz.So it sucks.

In my opinion Kapt'n Bluddflag is better than Gorgutz, and you're depriving yourself of one of the most awesome orks in the 40k universe.

OI, YOUS LOT! YOU'Z PART OF MY KREW NOW! ANY PROBLEMS WITH DAT, YA TALK TA DA COMPLAINTS DEPARTMENT. DATS MY GUN, BY DA WAY!

"Trow in dat hat ov yourz, and we gots ourselvez a deel."


"My hat? Impossible!"


"Alright Boyz, WAAAAGHHH!!!"



Might be paraphrasing a bit.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Also I know of no other RTS that lets you design units

I can give you several examples. Most of them are older games though.

War, Inc. (DOS era game, you were controlled a mercenary company and designed your own units, directed research, invested in the stock market, and commanded them in battle)

Cyberstorm 2: Corporate Wars (A Battletech style game of a similar style as War, Inc., from the Sierra era of computer games, albeit with a darker setting than Battletech, if that can be believed.)

Earth 21XX series (Closer to what you'd think of as an RTS probably; 2150 is where this series peaked I think)