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 dandadoom wrote:
But see this is where shooty units also get a buff. A close combat oriented squad with pistols and CCW would have a bunch of attacks, power weapons, etc. but when it comes down to throwing grenades they can each throw one. And if lets say a 10-man bolter squad gets charged by a MC, they would be getting the same number of grenades so really why even bother with assault squads.

You can only throw one grenade per unit as a shooting attack.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 dandadoom wrote:
But see this is where shooty units also get a buff. A close combat oriented squad with pistols and CCW would have a bunch of attacks, power weapons, etc. but when it comes down to throwing grenades they can each throw one. And if lets say a 10-man bolter squad gets charged by a MC, they would be getting the same number of grenades so really why even bother with assault squads.

You can only throw one grenade per unit as a shooting attack.

He's talking about in assault. An assault squad gets twice the STR4 attacks of a tac squad, but the same amount of STR6 attacks. It's the STR6 attacks that hurt MCs.

I understand the fluff of why they allowed it, but it's really annoying.

rigeld2 wrote:
That assumes you get a T8 beasty very often. Many (many, many) times I have to push Tervigons and Tyrants into combat with units with grenades when they don't have IA. Against Marines I typically lose one MC a game to grenades - not that it makes me lose the game, but it's something to think about.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. The MCs you mention all either have a lot of offensive power, or 6 wounds, or both. Even assuming an unwounded 10man squad, the expected results of their grenades is less than one wound per combat phase. (10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .83 unsaved wounds). That's 7 combat phases to deal your 6 wounds, and you're not removing any attacks. At the very least, you should throw something else in to wrap that up sooner.

Now, if you're weathering 10 attacks each phase, then you're not killing any in return.. with a tyrant or trygon? Even a tervigon should kill one guy/turn. If you're losing MCs this way, you're either playing poorly, or rolling very poorly.

 Redbeard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That assumes you get a T8 beasty very often. Many (many, many) times I have to push Tervigons and Tyrants into combat with units with grenades when they don't have IA. Against Marines I typically lose one MC a game to grenades - not that it makes me lose the game, but it's something to think about.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. The MCs you mention all either have a lot of offensive power, or 6 wounds, or both. Even assuming an unwounded 10man squad, the expected results of their grenades is less than one wound per combat phase. (10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .83 unsaved wounds). That's 7 combat phases to deal your 6 wounds, and you're not removing any attacks. At the very least, you should throw something else in to wrap that up sooner.

Now, if you're weathering 10 attacks each phase, then you're not killing any in return.. with a tyrant or trygon? Even a tervigon should kill one guy/turn. If you're losing MCs this way, you're either playing poorly, or rolling very poorly.

The standard Terv's these days is gonna be very unlikely to not have IA or WS, I'm usually not afraid to fight at I1 and have Crushing Claws as well. Next thing you know, , 8 Str 10 AP2 attacks, if 4 marines don't die, we've got bigger problems. I still believe Nids win out the CC war, even against Chaos, but you really need to pick your battles there.

 Redbeard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That assumes you get a T8 beasty very often. Many (many, many) times I have to push Tervigons and Tyrants into combat with units with grenades when they don't have IA. Against Marines I typically lose one MC a game to grenades - not that it makes me lose the game, but it's something to think about.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. The MCs you mention all either have a lot of offensive power, or 6 wounds, or both. Even assuming an unwounded 10man squad, the expected results of their grenades is less than one wound per combat phase. (10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .83 unsaved wounds). That's 7 combat phases to deal your 6 wounds, and you're not removing any attacks. At the very least, you should throw something else in to wrap that up sooner.

Now, if you're weathering 10 attacks each phase, then you're not killing any in return.. with a tyrant or trygon? Even a tervigon should kill one guy/turn. If you're losing MCs this way, you're either playing poorly, or rolling very poorly.

You're assuming that they make it into assault undamaged - poor assumption in this edition. And like I said - I have few issues with leaving them in if we can still snip the power fist... but giving hidden powerfists and free STR6 CC attacks to normal 14 point marines? Sigh...
edited for accuracy.

The inability to get into CC with more than 50% squad strength is what has killed the BA codex in 6th edition. Well, one of the things.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That assumes you get a T8 beasty very often. Many (many, many) times I have to push Tervigons and Tyrants into combat with units with grenades when they don't have IA. Against Marines I typically lose one MC a game to grenades - not that it makes me lose the game, but it's something to think about.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. The MCs you mention all either have a lot of offensive power, or 6 wounds, or both. Even assuming an unwounded 10man squad, the expected results of their grenades is less than one wound per combat phase. (10 attacks, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, .83 unsaved wounds). That's 7 combat phases to deal your 6 wounds, and you're not removing any attacks. At the very least, you should throw something else in to wrap that up sooner.

Now, if you're weathering 10 attacks each phase, then you're not killing any in return.. with a tyrant or trygon? Even a tervigon should kill one guy/turn. If you're losing MCs this way, you're either playing poorly, or rolling very poorly.

You're assuming that they make it into assault undamaged - poor assumption in this edition. And like I said - I have few issues with leaving them in if we can still snip the power fist... but giving hidden powerfists and free STR6 CC attacks to normal 12 point marines? Sigh...

Who has 12 point Marines?

Typo. I meant 14. Sorry.

rigeld2 wrote:

You're assuming that they make it into assault undamaged - poor assumption in this edition. And like I said - I have few issues with leaving them in if we can still snip the power fist... but giving hidden powerfists and free STR6 CC attacks to normal 14 point marines? Sigh...

See, I think you're misplacing this argument. S6 AP4 grenades aren't the issue, it's that you took 5 wounds before you got into combat. I think letting marines use their grenades against MCs makes perfect sense, and the AP4 on the weapon is what stops them from being horribly effective. S6 grenades against walkers - that's something dreads need to worry about. AP4 grenades against 3+ save MCs, not so much.

(Are there any MCs that AP4 is relevant against - excepting forgeworld (small squiggoths and great knarlocs come to mind if you include forgeworld). I think all MCs, by the book, are at least 3+, or daemons with no save but an invul in its place)

As for the hidden powerfist, it's there to prevent herohammer. It means you can't send one MC in and expect it to roll through successive squads unharmed. It means you need to support your charging tervigons with some termagants, and make the powerfist guy swing at baby bugs instead of big ones. It makes for more interesting tactical play. Challenges leads to brain-dead tactical play. You charge, you challenge and either dodge the fist or kill it, and then go for the squad.

 Redbeard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You're assuming that they make it into assault undamaged - poor assumption in this edition. And like I said - I have few issues with leaving them in if we can still snip the power fist... but giving hidden powerfists and free STR6 CC attacks to normal 14 point marines? Sigh...

See, I think you're misplacing this argument. S6 AP4 grenades aren't the issue, it's that you took 5 wounds before you got into combat. I think letting marines use their grenades against MCs makes perfect sense, and the AP4 on the weapon is what stops them from being horribly effective. S6 grenades against walkers - that's something dreads need to worry about. AP4 grenades against 3+ save MCs, not so much.

(Are there any MCs that AP4 is relevant against - excepting forgeworld (small squiggoths and great knarlocs come to mind if you include forgeworld). I think all MCs, by the book, are at least 3+, or daemons with no save but an invul in its place)

As for the hidden powerfist, it's there to prevent herohammer. It means you can't send one MC in and expect it to roll through successive squads unharmed. It means you need to support your charging tervigons with some termagants, and make the powerfist guy swing at baby bugs instead of big ones. It makes for more interesting tactical play. Challenges leads to brain-dead tactical play. You charge, you challenge and either dodge the fist or kill it, and then go for the squad.

To your parenthetical - Harpies, which are at least partially designed to be in CC (they have grenades after all).
I still think they're overly effective - even not ignoring armor, making you roll lots of saves is how bolters wound MCs in the first place. In CC they can cause more wounds.
I get the fluff - I do. I don't see why they need to be STR6. I guess it's just me though. And yes - I typically do support my MCs with gribbly assaults. I also try and snipe the PF before I get anyone into the unit - but that still doesn't always help.
I think one of my bigger problems with them is that it's a no brainer choice for 99% of the models that have grenades. I dislike no-brainers. Making all grenades Unwieldly would make me feel better about them - at least then it wouldn't be possible to lose a Carnifex before it swings (poor rolls for me, but it happened entirely due to grenades).

 Redbeard wrote:
[ (Are there any MCs that AP4 is relevant against - excepting forgeworld (small squiggoths and great knarlocs come to mind if you include forgeworld). I think all MCs, by the book, are at least 3+, or daemons with no save but an invul in its place)

Krak grenades are pretty effective against Greater Daemons not of the Khorne persuasion. A 5+ invulnerable save is not particularly special.

Rather than doing away with challenges all together (to prevent multiple hidden powerfists), why not just remove the character status from squad leaders? Sure, you'd lose precision shots/hits, but I practically always forget to roll squad leaders separately anyway. That allows one hidden power weapon in a squad, but keeps those Chapter Masters from destroying squads without fear.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Krak grenades are pretty effective against Greater Daemons not of the Khorne persuasion. A 5+ invulnerable save is not particularly special.

Really?

The Keeper of Secrets goes at I 10 with 6 attacks. I'm assuming it charged, because I know there's no way I'm running 10 tac marines into it, so make that 7. Hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+, you're lucky to have 5 grenades to swing at it and it's WS9, so you're looking at maybe 2 hits, and maybe 1 wound (out of 5). This doesn't factor in any possible gifts or psychic powers. Given that it just ate half your squad, is taking one wound really an unreasonable tradeoff?

The Great Unclean One is the only one that doesn't swing before you, and so you get all your attacks. But with 10 swings, that's 5 hits, and he's T7 without factoring gifts and/or psychic powers, so you're wounding him on a 5+. Again, you're looking at an expected 1-2 wounds, out of 6 in this case. Oh, and that's assuming he didn't use his biomancy for either warp speed (striking you first with more attacks, so you hit him with less), or iron arm (dropping your wounding roll to a 2+).

Lord of Change - again, he's swinging before you, reducing the number of attacks you get. He's the easiest of all of them to actually put wounds on, hitting and wounding on 4+ each, but he's also the most likely to have used spells to reduce your numbers before the combat even began.

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. The only MC in the daemon codex that I'd be concerned with grenades would be Fatey, and I'd not put him in a position to be charged by anything. I'd be concerned with him taking wounds from Tac marines using their fists. All of the rest of them would require significant luck on your opponent's part to take more than a wound to grenades in exchange for wiping a squad. I consider that more than reasonable.

 Redbeard wrote:
The Keeper of Secrets goes at I 10 with 6 attacks. I'm assuming it charged, because I know there's no way I'm running 10 tac marines into it, so make that 7.

You're right, you won't be running your tac marines into the Keeper, so it will get the charge. But it doesn't have any assault grenades, and your marines should be in cover against an army without assault grenades. As a result the Keeper will be striking at I1 and your marines will be getting their krack grenade attacks in at I4.

 Mushkilla wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
The Keeper of Secrets goes at I 10 with 6 attacks. I'm assuming it charged, because I know there's no way I'm running 10 tac marines into it, so make that 7.

You're right, you won't be running your tac marines into the Keeper, so it will get the charge. But it doesn't have any assault grenades, and your marines should be in cover against an army without assault grenades. As a result the Keeper will be striking at I1 and your marines will be getting their krack grenade attacks in at I4.

Exactly. The question wasn't about charging a MC with tacticals, it was are there any MCs that S6 AP4 is effective against. One S6 AP4 attack is better than two S4 AP- attacks against non-Khorne Greater Daemons.

If death company weren't so expensive...

But they are pretty effective against MCs as an asaulty marine,

So, run tons of tac, or proxy your assault marines as DC (half w/ powerswords)...I've kicked the hell out of nidzilla in 6th with a bunch of 5 man units (get obliterated by eldar, though)

karandras15 wrote:
If death company weren't so expensive...

But they are pretty effective against MCs as an asaulty marine,

So, run tons of tac, or proxy your assault marines as DC (half w/ powerswords)...I've kicked the hell out of nidzilla in 6th with a bunch of 5 man units (get obliterated by eldar, though)

What Nidzilla were you kicking the hell out of with 5 man squads ? Half dead Carnifex ? A Trygon would have 6 attacks hitting on 3s re rolling all misses wounding on 2s re rolling all failed to wound. Unless you've got FNP that 5 man squad dies in 1 turn. So you got one turn to do 6 wounds against that toughness 6 monster !

I run 10 man death companies w/ lermates for reroll hits and wounds on the charge. I never charge the cheese that is a trygon. Just shoot those to death or send in an HQ w/ th/ss terms. But the DC wrecks most other things. WS 5str5 on the. charge.

JPong wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Looking at it more mathematically and objectively, Overwatch is rarely a significant factor, and while it does tone down assaults, the potential for damage is fairly low. Charge range is now statistically 1" further than before on average, and in you are just as likely to roll 12 as you are 2.

This is more than a bit of a dishonest way of looking at it. A roll of a 12 is less likely to be required (it is however always a success) as a roll of a 2 is likely to screw you over (how many 1-2inch charges are you doing after all?). No one is declaring charges at 11-12 inch charge range, hell, most probably don't declare charges over 7. And overwatch doesn't need to be massive to have an effect. Removing one casualty from the front can, and often will, bump the needed charge roll up a whole number. Going from needing 5 or more to 6 or more is 4 roll possibilities lost. 6 to 7 is even worse, at 5 roll results. Even a 7inch charge is risky with a 41.7% chance of failure. It's not like these dedicated assault units have the means to survive being left in the open after all.

Good point. I have failed charges at 3 inches on a number of occasions. Pretty annoying when they are Terminators charging a warlord. Actually its more than annoying its a gamebreaker. So much to the extent I dont even run terminators anymore let alone set out to assault anyone. I dunno if its just me but those double 1s seem to come up an awful lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
Who cares what the enemy does to the rhino if youre getting out behind it. The issue is, they have to actually explode it and even if successful in not just wrecking it, it means that the enemy has spent a fair amount of effort trying and yet, three more just luke it are in position. Cant kill everything.not fast enough.

As for outflankers, the battlefield viewed from the sides provides a lot of cover,yeah?

I think if you look at the simple truth that we can make the nine inch charges we never could before, and give yourself 3-4 units in position to try, life can be good.

Ehh dude are you serious? You regularly attempt AND succesfully roll 9 inch charges? Frankly I find this a little hard to take.

With Fleet it's not that unusual to make 9" charges regularly.

The way I remember it, assault has been weakening forever.

3rd edition
The edition I started with. Assault armies are generally rhino rush armies, such as Blood Angels (who could assault some crazy distance, I believe it was 12 + supercharged engines 6 + possible D6 from rage + 2 from coming out of the transport + 6 assault... max 32 I believe? Even if I got the details wrong it was still crazy long range assaults) Space Wolves (who had venerable to re-roll who goes first, overpowered to say the least). You could sweeping advance into other units, getting more close combat, this was possibly 2d6. Powerfists were hidden, and mostly the only thing that mattered anyway, you'd win the combat, had maybe some modifier from having more models or whatever, sweeping advance would destroy the fleeing unit. Independent characters were mostly bad because they would be one-shot with powerfists, and special characters had this "ask your opponent if you can play this" thing while also being massively overcosted. Smoke Launchers meant that if the rushing army got to go first, you could only glance their transports, which would only be destroyed if you rolled a 6, and they wouldn't take shaken/stunned because extra armor, and most of the time you'd roll multiple weapon destroyed results or something that did not do anything at all. If the shooting army got to go first, they could decimate the number of transports with penetrating hits, so I remember this edition as the "who goes first wins" edition. Space Marines had lascannon + plasma gun tactical squads for 96 points so of course shooting was pretty strong in a way. Rapid fire weapons were mostly awful, you could shoot on the move once to 12, or twice to 12/once to 24 stationary, but that's what nearly everyone had, however you could assault after shooting your rapid fire weapons. It didn't matter if you had troops other than the minimum, so in a way you could field more specialized CC units, but then again most of those were overcosted and awful compared to what you got as troops. Mostly. Wrecking your transport did almost nothing, you got some wounds you got to save, maybe. You could screen your units with other units hard, you couldn't fire over the other players models at all other than some elevation differences or maybe vehicles (maybe not).

When Tyranids were released (it was 3rd edition right?) they could play some 8 monstrous creatures with 3+ or 2+ saves or something moronic like that, also there was a seeding swarm that could assault from deep strike with genestealers, that was fun. Originally I thought the Speed Freeks released in the armageddon campaign were a pretty swell assault army with their fast ass trucks (unless I'm mistaken that too was one of the "guaranteed second turn assault" armies). Black Templars felt like pretty cheesy because Emperor's Champion could kill off your power fists.

Then trial vehicle rules were released, you couldn't assault out of a Rhino if it moved and you got rooted if your transport was killed, or something like that, really weakened Rhino Rush but didn't entirely kill it I believe, since Rhino's were still pretty durable. I remember Iron Hands being a really good shooty army because they got a venerable dread to re-roll the who goes first roll, the only reason they were played anyway. I believe there was also trial assault rules that removed the sweeping from unit to unit, at least that stuff was gone from 4th edition.

4th edition
Rhino rush was buried with more rules preventing you from assaulting out of them, rapid fire was improved, vehicles could be reasonably destroyed because additional "weapon destroyed" results would do something, you could assault out of open-topped vehicles and possibly Land Raiders. Superiority fire meant that massed firepower could take out the hidden fist maybe once in a 100 games or something, not very reliable. Assault Cannons were crazy overpowered, I remember this edition by the way of counting the number of assault cannons. Alaitoc was for a while the most overpowered army of them all because it's hard counter, rhino rush, was gone and this was an army you fought with something like 1/5th of your army because overpowered special rules that took effect before game. You had crazy stuff like flying slaanesh daemon princes that couldn't be shot or assaulted because some broken minor psychic power thing, possible first turn assaults by infiltrating a chaos lord with legs mutation (gave 12" assault and a D6 extra movement IIRC) and Raptors could also pull that off I think. You could consolidate into an another close combat but that was like three inch movement, so it rarely happened. You couldn't assault and fire rapid fire so I have no idea what Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Death Guard were supposed to be doing but whatever. Fearless units could take casualties from losing combats. I have no idea if veteran sergeants with powerfists were still hidden, maybe it was something like independent characters could kill them, or something about how casualties were removed so that they could potentially kill them... At least I remember my chaos lord being shot from a unit by the way of moving two tanks in a specific way to block line of sight to everything else so he could be shot with a lascannon to the face.

Crazy armies like armoured company (that is, IG tanks, no silly guardsmen required) were released, and I witnessed one of the saddest tournament games ever, Sisters of Battle vs. many Leman Russ Tanks, end of second turn not a single SoB alive. Anyway. Other than the few cheesy tricks such as the flying daemon prince that you're not allowed to kill, this edition was about shooting, preferably with Assault Cannons. However since 3rd was such an overly simplistic edition, I remember 4th as a good 40k edition even while my armies kinda sucked. How about going to a tournament with Necrons and finding out that almost everybody has 8 tyranid monstrous creatures? Yeah your slowly walking, short-ranged infantry units aren't going to cut it, then again, neither is anything else in the army.

5th edition

Before fifth came out, I got tired of everybody playing space marines or something equivalent to space marines (necrons, sobs, whatever) and how the game felt like it was centered around how many lascannons etc. you could bring, so I sold my armies. I tried fifth once, seemed pretty fine but I heard things about 20 venom dark eldar lists or something and I didn't bother, sounded like the same thing all over again, minimum units, maximum weapons, maximum range. I also heard something about flying dreadnoughts 13 wounds per turn, so maybe there was some assaulting going on. I was kinda intrested though, because finally footslogging models could move more than 6 inches a turn.

6th edition

I haven't been to any tournaments, but from what I hear Daemons are kinda ok because FMC spam and that's it for assault. From what I gather most armies simply don't have a reasonable way to get to close combat, it's all turn 3, 4 stuff by which point the army is almost entirely destroyed. And apparently Daemons play Plaguebearers as troops, because they don't have to do anything, it's about the toughness value and the cover save. OK.

Actually for chaos it is more along the lines of this. FMC spam, Khornate hounds, and finally either pink horrors or plague bearers. The hounds actually work thanks to scout and being beasts. Also it seems that slaaneshi seekers work pretty well as cavalry with that extra speed! Admittedly there is almost no reason to ever touch Bloodletters.

About no challenges and the hidden power fist... there's an easy answer to why it wouldn't be such a problem - keep precision strikes for characters. That MC only needs to roll a 6 and then a wound to remove that "hidden" weapon - well, depending on whether LoS! is still around or not, I guess.

Of course there can be MCs that aren't characters, like the Riptide, but that stupid thing has more than enough advantages to not cry about a hidden power fist.

From what I have seen the biggest problem with CC are the players. The armies that "use" to be CC were the ones that were on their opponent's side and assaulting turn one or two, which basically means that shooting armies just lost. If they can eliminate/tie up an opponents best shooters, that have no real CC skill, on turn one or two that means at best those units were used for two turns. In the worst case they were never used at all. Sounds a lot like what those with CC were complaining about throughout this thread, no? With the changes to CC it now means those units at least get a chance to do some wounds. Players of CC armies now have to use terrain and plan lines of sight rather than run straight up the middle and break through a gun line. SM armies can't just drop their army in their opponents deployment zone and tie up the entire gun line by turn 2 and wipe them by 3. There is actually a chance to remove vehicles now as opposed to just have 90% of their shots tink off then the ones that get through do nothing thanks to a SR or wargear. All in all it's a better balance then it was. CC is not an easy button against shooting armies, you have to plan and learn target priority now. At the end of the day I see just as many CC armies around as I use to in 5th, what I don't see is CC armies rolling over every shooting army they come against.

I think part of the problem with any edition of 40K, is there is not enough Line of Site blocking terrain.

From what I see, most terrain has you can see your starting edge your opponent from his starting edge and shoot him if you have the range.

Many battles did indeed take place in fields. Ask the Germans and Russians about the eastern front.

As for DC, they are way too inefficient to be considered "good" at anything. Also note, that if you assault *them*, they are little better than ASM.

SCOMMY: youre missing it. There never was a 9 inch charge before. So Idont need to make nine inch charges. "All the time" to point out to you that it will be part of strategy now. Because shooting used to turn 6" charges into 9" charges all the time. And it still does. Difference is I can actually make that now. How is that worse? It isn't.

Melee was roo dominant in 40k leading up to 6E. No one can claim otherwise. BA and GK showed it most clearly but others did too. Glad to see the game got balanced a bit.

 Jancoran wrote:

Melee was roo dominant in 40k leading up to 6E. No one can claim otherwise. BA and GK showed it most clearly but others did too. Glad to see the game got balanced a bit.

See my signature. Razorbacks and Chimeras don't melee stuff to death, trying to claim that melee was dominant in 5th edition, the edition of mechvets, Venom spam, Long Fangs and MSU with as many special weapons as possible is, frankly, insane. The best armies (GK, IG and SW, arguably) where all better at shooting than at CC, two out of three just happened to be decent at CC too (and IG blobs worked too, but they're not the stereotypical mech IG army). Even Blood Angels were good because they got cheap, fast Razorbacks and double Meltaguns in scoring units.

Yes I think it is a screw you to assault but realistically it should be. With such powerful, advanced guns and weaponry how would anybody reach CC?

BaconUprising wrote:
Yes I think it is a screw you to assault but realistically it should be. With such powerful, advanced guns and weaponry how would anybody reach CC?

Teleportation, Drop Pods, Warp Rifts, more bodies than the enemy has bullets etc.

BaconUprising wrote:
Yes I think it is a screw you to assault but realistically it should be. With such powerful, advanced guns and weaponry how would anybody reach CC?

As if 40k is in any shape or form realistic as it is, so in trying to balance fun stuff it's kind of a pointless argument.