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After a recent game against a 3 Heldrake list, I realized that my list lacked the AA to take down such armies. I was playing Space Marines (some Bikes, 2 decked out CMs, Grav Centurions with Tigurius, and a couple TFCs). After the match, I took the time to run the numbers on some of the common anti-aircraft options. I was dismayed by just how difficult it is to take down one of these terrors with average dice (the only viable way to evaluate a unit IMO). I'll start by showing some calculations on how points-efficient each of the more common options are. We're going to test these units against a Heldrake (it being one of the two sturdiest flyers). Bear in mind some of these numbers have to assume things like Melta range and have no way to factor in the advantage Interceptor gives to the unit in question. Also, I don't take into account the Heldrake getting destroyed by losing hull points. If you have some technique to factor this in, please let me know!

1. Quad Gun with ADL (BS 4)- .07 destroyed results, giving a value of 1429 points per Heldrake destroyed
2. x5 IF Devestators with Skyfire Missiles- .09 destroyed results, giving a value of 1888 points per Heldrake destroyed
3. Hunter- .11 destroyed results, giving a value of 636 points per Heldrake destroyed--- every turn thereafter= .07 more destroyed results if it remains on the table. This gives it a 383 on the second turn and a 280 on the third turn (looking pretty good!)
4. Stalker- .07 destroyed results, giving a value of 1071 points per Heldrake destroyed
5. Stormtalon with Skyhammer- .11 destroyed results, giving a value of 1136 per Heldrake destroyed
Stormtalon with Las- .17 destroyed results, giving a value of 823 per Heldrake destroyed
Stormtalon with Typhoon- .12 destroyed results, giving a value of 1208 per Heldrake destroyed
Stormtalon with HB overshooting for rear shots- .13 destroyed results, giving a value of 846 per Heldrake destroyed
6. STORMRAVEN with Lascannon and MM (best setup for the situation)- .5 destroyed results at melta range, giving a value of 400 points per Heldrake destroyed.
7. Vulkan Legion of the Damned with Melta, Combi-Melta, Multi-Melta- .25 destroyed results at Melta range, giving a value of 620 points per Heldrake destroyed.

I'm going to come back later and go through some of the SM allies (particularly Tau, who seem to not be the AA gods common knowledge would have you believe).I'll go ahead and hint that the very best Heldrake points-per destroyed result comes from the IG codex (it's NOT the Vendetta...)

So, the main takeaway in that block o' stats is the fact that the Stormraven comes away with the best points per "Destroyed!" result when it comes to gunning down the 'Drakes (in a single turn) in the SM codex (most other codices too, interestingly enough). Also, these numbers should make it pretty clear that AV12 flyers are still incredibly resilient in the current meta. Can you see the connection here? Stormravens are the best unit for taking out av12 flyers while also utilizing an insanely durable platform.

What do you guys think? Is the Stormraven as good as the math suggests? Please try to avoid wild anecdotes in the discussion. I'm especially interested in input from people who have played SM or BA Stormravens in at least several games.

The Stormraven is a lot better now that other marine stuff is cheaper. It's still overcosted, imo, but it's much more fieldable.

What about:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3320336a_99120199030_FirestormRedoubt01_873x627.jpg

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What about:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3320336a_99120199030_FirestormRedoubt01_873x627.jpg

I used that thing for the first time about a month ago: it intercepted a stormraven with a captain, librarian, honor guard, and dreadnought aboard. Only the captain survived the crash.

It seems kind of gimmicky, but fairly costed IMO (almost the same price as a stormraven). And I would give some serious consideration to taking it if you're dealing with multiple helldrakes as a MEQ army. Interceptor is very valuable, and you can stick a squad inside to save them from getting roasted.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What about:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3320336a_99120199030_FirestormRedoubt01_873x627.jpg

It will deal out .25 destroyed results to a Heldrake per turn, giving it a value of 800 points for one destroyed result. Not bad! It's also worth noting that this is probably the most durable choice yet, being completely immune to the 'Drake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furthermore, you can put a 3+ save or worse unit INSIDE it to increase the portion of your army that is immune to getting Baleflamed.

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is a lot better now that other marine stuff is cheaper. It's still overcosted, imo, but it's much more fieldable.

I disagree, the Stormraven is perfectly priced. Its most other fliers right now that are drastically either overcosted(DA, Eldar) or undercosted (Heldrake, Vendetta)

How about Lascannon Imperial Fist Devastators?
150 points, 4 S9 AP2 tank hunting shots. That's .33 kills per turn correct?
I'd go with Fist Devastators inside the Firestorm.

How are you calculating the kills? Because weapon destroyed is about as good as dead on the turkey.

-Matt

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is a lot better now that other marine stuff is cheaper. It's still overcosted, imo, but it's much more fieldable.

I disagree, the Stormraven is perfectly priced. Its most other fliers right now that are drastically either overcosted(DA, Eldar) or undercosted (Heldrake, Vendetta)

The Stormraven pays for all kinds of useless gear. It's quite overcosted, especially compared to the Helldrake or Vendetta, which are the measuring stick fliers.

The stormraven is pretty decent price wise IMO if it's being used as a delivery system

Martel732 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is a lot better now that other marine stuff is cheaper. It's still overcosted, imo, but it's much more fieldable.

I disagree, the Stormraven is perfectly priced. Its most other fliers right now that are drastically either overcosted(DA, Eldar) or undercosted (Heldrake, Vendetta)

The Stormraven pays for all kinds of useless gear. It's quite overcosted, especially compared to the Helldrake or Vendetta, which are the measuring stick fliers.

If you were to balance fliers around the hellrake and vendetta then you don't end up playing 40k you end up playing Aeronautica Imperialis.

Heldrakes can flame units inside buildings with firepoints (which that has).

Not that the firestorm redoubt isn't fantastic AA.

The stormraven is perfectly priced. It just should have been made more modular so you could drop parts you didn't want/need. That is the problem with it. I still rather like them and find them a good addition to a SM or GK army. I like the multi-melta and lascannons with a cheap scoring unit inside; 5 man TAC squad (SM) or henchmen (GK).

It is a huge addition for a white scars army as you need at least 1 scoring unit to show up late game and climb stairs to get the opponent's objective. The configuration I listed is also the most brutal against helldrakes (~45% chance to explode it!). Being a bike army you can see how this things is the go to solution.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is a lot better now that other marine stuff is cheaper. It's still overcosted, imo, but it's much more fieldable.

I disagree, the Stormraven is perfectly priced. Its most other fliers right now that are drastically either overcosted(DA, Eldar) or undercosted (Heldrake, Vendetta)

The Stormraven pays for all kinds of useless gear. It's quite overcosted, especially compared to the Helldrake or Vendetta, which are the measuring stick fliers.

If you were to balance fliers around the hellrake and vendetta then you don't end up playing 40k you end up playing Aeronautica Imperialis.

There is no balance The Vendetta exists, and therefore, the best the Stormraven can possibly be is average. It's overcosted by about 30ish points the way it plays on the table.

I agree that a few other flyers are under-costed, making the Stormraven look more expensive. However, even in the current setting, it's hard to imagine the Stormraven being any cheaper. it already is one of the two most durable flyers, rocks a large transport capacity, is one of the most points-efficient means of downing flyers (in the entire game),
Also, useless wargear? Wha?! What gear does it have that is useless? Ceramite armor ensures it is much harder to gun down with meltas (generally one of the more effective ways of taking out a flyer, if twin-linked). The transport capacity could let you either bring in an assault unit or (more likely) stow 5 scouts away until the end game. You could argue for the Dreadnought capacity, but even that has some possibility.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
What about:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3320336a_99120199030_FirestormRedoubt01_873x627.jpg

I used that thing for the first time about a month ago: it intercepted a stormraven with a captain, librarian, honor guard, and dreadnought aboard. Only the captain survived the crash.

It seems kind of gimmicky, but fairly costed IMO (almost the same price as a stormraven). And I would give some serious consideration to taking it if you're dealing with multiple helldrakes as a MEQ army. Interceptor is very valuable, and you can stick a squad inside to save them from getting roasted.

Flamer templates that touch a firepoint deal D6 hits. So, banking on them rolling a 1 or 2... I guess that's protection?

I think the SR is adequately priced. It's only useless role is that of carrying troops, it's just too much of a gamble (unless said passenger is Mephiston, the crash can't kill him). I actually want another one for my vanilla marines and throw in a storm talon as an escort.

Another thing I like about fielding the SR is that I don't get the same groans from my opponent as I do when the vendettas come out.

Rear AV 12 is dubious. Ceramite is dubious. Transport is dubius. Power of machine spirit is dubuious. Dubious as in comes up very infrequently. And the weapon payout is not as harmonious as the Vendetta or the Helldrake.

It doesn't get groans because they know it can't cause enough damage for its points And the Vendetta almost certainly will. If the Stormraven had the sponsons for free, that would make up for all the crap wargear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make no mistake, however. The Stormraven is much better in the new book despite its price being the same. It's all relative. The SR still kinda sucks in the BA book.

Weapon payout not as harmonious?
S8 AP1 melta, S8 AP2 missiles (AP1 for blood angels) and S6 heavy 4 rending all work great together.

PotMS comes up quite often for me. That top turret has plenty of arc, you can fire the 3 S8 AP1 shots at 1 target and assault cannon another.

Transport dubios? If nothing else, you can stick a cheap techmarine inside and repair hull points. It's really rare to 1 shot a Storm Raven; I usually lose mine to hull points. 50 to 80 points of techmarine + servators gives you a 5+ to a 2+ recover hull point

-Matt

Rending on a single assault cannon can never be relied upon. Lack of ability to mass assault cannons is why it's not a very good weapon, imo.

The weapons on the SR don't all have the same range lilke triple lascannon.

Techmarines aren't cheap.

Martel732 wrote:
Rear AV 12 is dubious. Ceramite is dubious. Transport is dubius. Power of machine spirit is dubuious. Dubious as in comes up very infrequently. And the weapon payout is not as harmonious as the Vendetta or the Helldrake.

It doesn't get groans because they know it can't cause enough damage for its points And the Vendetta almost certainly will. If the Stormraven had the sponsons for free, that would make up for all the crap wargear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Make no mistake, however. The Stormraven is much better in the new book despite its price being the same. It's all relative. The SR still kinda sucks in the BA book.

You imply here that the Vendetta will cause more damage for its points than a Stormraven. This is a common (quite wrong) assumption. This time let's have a look at them both shooting at an non-Heldrake AV12 platform (which they both happen to be).

Vendetta- 2.25 hits with 3 TL Lascannons- 1.125 penetrating hits- .38 destroyed results- this means that it takes 342 points worth of Vendettas to kill another AV12 vehicle (barring cover/invul)
Stormraven (Lascannon and MM)- 1.33 hits with missiles, .88 hits with Lascannon, .88 hits with MM- .44 pens with missiles, .44 pens with Lascannon, .73 pens with MM (assuming melta range)- .14 destroyed results with missiles, .15 destroyed results with Lascannon, and .37 destroyed results with MM for a grand total of .67 destroyed results. This means that it takes 298 points worth of Stormraven to take out another AV12.
Even if out of Melta range, the Stormraven only falls behind by a razor-thin margin. Furthermore, the Stormraven is the more durable vehicle as well, making it a safer place to put a throwaway scoring unit (5 scouts for instance) just like Vendettas generally do with Guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Weapon payout not as harmonious?
S8 AP1 melta, S8 AP2 missiles (AP1 for blood angels) and S6 heavy 4 rending all work great together.

PotMS comes up quite often for me. That top turret has plenty of arc, you can fire the 3 S8 AP1 shots at 1 target and assault cannon another.

Transport dubios? If nothing else, you can stick a cheap techmarine inside and repair hull points. It's really rare to 1 shot a Storm Raven; I usually lose mine to hull points. 50 to 80 points of techmarine + servators gives you a 5+ to a 2+ recover hull point

-Matt

Also, one of the Chapter Tactics gives it IWND at no charge!

Were those AP 1 or AP 2 missiles? Also, don't forget the Vendetta has more HP per point than the SR. It's harder to get all those lascannons off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
Were those AP 1 or AP 2 missiles? Also, don't forget the Vendetta has more HP per point than the SR. It's harder to get all those lascannons off the table.

Ah, I used AP 2 by mistake. I fixed it, and the Stormraven still comes out on top. However, it is true that the Vendetta pays less for each hull point, which is a solid advantage. It is not my intention to claim the Stormraven is better than the Vendetta, however. I simply want to know why it isn't considered more often (especially with how it compares mathematically to the Vendetta, which is widely regarded as a very strong unit).

The Vendetta also looks better than the Stormraven in a relative sense for the same reason the Stormraven looks better in the new marine book: supporting cast is cheaper.

Lets also not forget that thanks to concussive on the missiles said vendetta will only be snap firing when it try's to shoot at you again. Actually just clipping the Hell turkey with one of those missiles stops it from shooting at you in the next shooting phase.

How good the storm raven is also depends on what else is in your army, and how themed you want it to be.

For example I think the foregworld contemptor mortis is absolutely fantastic anti air, potentially having 2TL lascannon shots, and 2 bs5 Krak missiles for 220 points. However if you only have one on the board, with no other vehicles, then its pretty certain that the opposing player will focus all of his anti armour on it, so a raven might have been a better choice.

I'm quite the fan of the stormraven personally. Many lists I've written up utilize 2-3 of them.

The storm eagle ROC pattern is insanely awesome. Super expensive but it really gives that sense of overwhelming firepower.

If you take a 10 men TAC squad you can put 5 men in the storm raven and the other 5 either to man an ADL/bastion/etc. or to drop pod/rhino up with the rest of the army. The forward 5 can even take the special/combi-/heavy in the unit. This give a decent forward scoring threat to drop out after the stormraven nukes a helldrake with it's multi-melta. I just wish the stormraven could trade it's missiles out for different weapons or missile types.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Weapon payout not as harmonious?
S8 AP1 melta, S8 AP2 missiles (AP1 for blood angels) and S6 heavy 4 rending all work great together.

PotMS comes up quite often for me. That top turret has plenty of arc, you can fire the 3 S8 AP1 shots at 1 target and assault cannon another.

Transport dubios? If nothing else, you can stick a cheap techmarine inside and repair hull points. It's really rare to 1 shot a Storm Raven; I usually lose mine to hull points. 50 to 80 points of techmarine + servators gives you a 5+ to a 2+ recover hull point

-Matt

You are doing it wrong.
You stick an IRON HANDS techmarines, into their stormraven. now you got improved recover rates for free, and IWND.
Good luck gunning this down folks. its the loyalist helldrake.

It's still easier to stick and explodes on because of no daemon save.

 ansacs wrote:
The storm eagle ROC pattern is insanely awesome. Super expensive but it really gives that sense of overwhelming firepower.

If you take a 10 men TAC squad you can put 5 men in the storm raven and the other 5 either to man an ADL/bastion/etc. or to drop pod/rhino up with the rest of the army. The forward 5 can even take the special/combi-/heavy in the unit. This give a decent forward scoring threat to drop out after the stormraven nukes a helldrake with it's multi-melta. I just wish the stormraven could trade it's missiles out for different weapons or missile types.

What's the ROC pattern? Google was not very helpful.

 Lansirill wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The storm eagle ROC pattern is insanely awesome. Super expensive but it really gives that sense of overwhelming firepower.

If you take a 10 men TAC squad you can put 5 men in the storm raven and the other 5 either to man an ADL/bastion/etc. or to drop pod/rhino up with the rest of the army. The forward 5 can even take the special/combi-/heavy in the unit. This give a decent forward scoring threat to drop out after the stormraven nukes a helldrake with it's multi-melta. I just wish the stormraven could trade it's missiles out for different weapons or missile types.

What's the ROC pattern? Google was not very helpful.

Storm Raven base model, transports 14, no dread though.

12/12/12, 4HP, TL-heavy bolter, 2 TL lascannons, and a 4 shot TL missile launcher with only krak missiles. Upgrade the heavy bolter to multimelta and you are looking at 300+ points, but it's basically the land raider of the sky.