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All right everyone, I am very curious to hear what people think about the new Dark Elves. I know that they are still in Pre-Release mode and obviously we have not read the Army Book yet but reading through the White Dwarf information and the Battle Report, it sounds like they are going to pretty much treat everyone the way they used to treat High Elves--re-rolling huge numbers of dice. I have played with DE in the last iteration of the Army Book, and I don't actually think the new units are that special or scary. They now have the two "Large Structures"--Cauldron of Blood and Bloodwrack Shrine--which seem to be a new GW theme, and they got a new monster option for the Hydra model (I like the old one better, actually). But, it seems that the major twist is going to be in the Special Rules--they now Always Strike First, like HE, for instance!

The new Lore could also be a factor, and I know nothing about that for sure.

So...as information continues to come out, I hope to hear the thoughts (and fears) of fellow Warhammer players. I certainly am not looking forward to playing them with my High Elf army...

Somebody got a hold of the book and posted the items and the lore.
The items look ok, but not great.
Here's a quick run down:
Weapon (all your lords magic points): Adds D6 attacks. Take Ld test at -2. If passed, nothing happens. If failed, gain Heroic Killing Blow, but also gain Minus 5 to weapon skill.
Weapon (all your heroes magic points): Hits auto wound. Model that fails any saves must pass a toughness test or suffer -3 attacks until the end of the following combat phase. Since you ASF, this could hose your opponent for 2 rounds of his attacks.
Enchanted Item: 1 use, start of any player turn. Gain S6 T6 and a S2 breathe (no armor save) until the end of the turn.
Enchanted Item: 3+ ward vs spells and ranged attacks. Gain killing blow and multiple wounds D3 in the first round of combat.
4+ ward, in a challenge, passed ward saves cause a wound on the attacker with no armor save allowed.
MR3 item, that causes spells cast or targeting within 6" of the wearer to miscast on double 1's and double 6's (only irresistible on 6's)
Banner: unit is unbreakable. Shadow Warriors and Shadow Walkers within 12" are also unbreakable (including high elves)
Arcane Item: causes a S6 hit on all enemy wizards within 12" when the bearer miscasts. The defender can discard a dispel die for each S6 hit he wishing to ignore.
Arcane Item: Sacrificial Dagger, kill a guy, roll a D6. On 4+, add a power die to the current spell. On a 1-3, you gain nothing, but may kill another to try again. You can only successfully add 1 die per spell attempt, though you might have to kill several of your own models to get that power die.
Arcane: Book. If you generate from dark magic, you may choose one spell, and then roll for the rest (it's not an extra spell, it's just 1 spell you don't have to roll).

Lore of Dark:
Lore Attribute: If you cast a hex, magic missile or direct damage successfully, and the spell dice include any pairs, the target unit takes 2D6 S1 armor piercing hits. If you roll a triple, you do 3D6 S1 armor piercing hits.
Sig: Casters Unit gains +1 strength. Gain D3 power dice. If you gain 3 dice, caster takes a wound with no armor save.
Sig: Magic Missile, 18", 2D6 S5 hits. Boosted is 4D6 S5 hits, still 18".
1: Magic Missile, 24", 2D6 S2 hits, if target takes a wound, it is -1 BS until casters next magic phase.
2: Hex: 24", -D3 to WS and BS (not limited to 1!). Boosted also drops Strength and Init (but limited to minimum of 1). Lasts until the start of your next magic phase.
3: Direct Damage: 24", every model in target unit must pass a WS test or take a S4 armor piercing hit.
4: Hex: All enemies within 12" cannot use hold your ground or inspiring presence. Every time a unit affect fails a leadership test, all units affected are -1 to any leadership test. The -1 is cumulative. Lasts until the start of your next magic phase.
5: Direct Damage: 18", small template, place and scatter D6". Models touched take S2 hits, no armor save. For each wound inflicted roll a D6. On a 4+, caster gains a wound (max of 10). Boosted version doubles range.
6: Vortex: Small template, place in base to base with caster, and move it Artillery Die times Casters Level. On a misfire, place on caster and scatter D6". All models touched must pass Strength Test or be removed from play with no armor save. If they pass a ward save, they are not removed from play. Vortex scatters an Artillery Die each turn (end of the magic phase as normal for a vortex). Boosted version is a 5" vortex.


So my thoughts:
Magic weapons are sub-par. A very good sword, that's still S4, isn't very good. Getting heroic killing blow, and missing your opponents doesn't make it better.
A sword that auto wounds is great against high toughness; but then it forces a toughness test for the special effect. Odds are you don't have an idea target for this weapon.
The Sacrificial Dagger is good, but with the cost of infantry going up, I don't know if that's the route I would take.
The miscast item is interesting, but since you're still likely to lose dice from miscasting, your magic phase is still likely over.
The Enchanted item that's a 3+ ward and makes you a badass in combat is pretty good; only because you can still take a normal ward save as a talisman. I could see a lord on cold one, with 1+ armor, 4+ ward, 3+ vs magic and shooting, and you get killing blow and D3 wounds on the charge with your lance.
Unbreakable banner. Ok, so how do I keep the BSB alive to actually use the thing?
MR 3, and cause miscasts? I could see him in the far corner of a horde, with the level 4 in the opposite far corner. That would give you a 4+ ward vs the signature spell feed back, or against a misfired vortex.
Over-all, I don't see any of these items as a must have.

Spells:
WOW. That's a lot of good spells; but those spells do all kinds of different things. Dark elf casters are too expensive to spam.
A lot of the spells are really good, but a lot of the spells are really different. Great direct damage, good hexes, decent augment (+1 strength and power dice).
The problems I see are a lot of the spells are short range (+1 strength sig is the casters unit only). Some of the spells are pretty hard to cast.
You can build a whole around around turning off the Generals Leadership and the BSB; but it's only a 12" range. I'd take the book that lets you choose a spell, so you can build specifically with a wizard with that spell (and mount her on a flying dark peg).

-Matt

didn't the book just come up to order? it may be a tiny bit early to ask how Dark Elves are doing...

just a thought...

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
didn't the book just come up to order? it may be a tiny bit early to ask how Dark Elves are doing...

just a thought...

Just excited (or afraid). Am planning my summer trip to the UK to participate in a tournament and was all tooled up to take my High Elves, and now with these bad boys coming up, I am rethinking the wisdom of that.

Plus, as the post above yours shows, on a site like this one, odds are someone knows something before the website starts selling books...

Just saying.

Yeah, seems there was a point posting the thread...

That new Lore does look pretty awesome, but what are the casting values? In particular, what's the casting value of Power of Darkness? If you're going to have to two dice it all the time it seems pretty useless to me. I don't need that +1S (though its a nice bonus), I want them Power Dice.

Also glad to see you can retry with the dagger. If it's 25pts like I hear, it may still be worth taking.

And there's a thread in General Discussion & Background about the new Dark Elves, I've posted some of the rumoured new rules in there, so that may be worth a read for you.

8+ to cast. I think DE also get the +1 to cast dark magic. So a lvl 3/4 could one dice it.

I've heard about the +1 to cast dark magic, but that wasn't int he pics of the new book that I found.

Casting values:
Signature: power of darkness 8+ (+1S, D3 power dice)
Signature: Doom bolt 12+/24+ (S5 magic missile)
1) Chill Wind: 5+ (magic missile)
2) Word of Pain: 9+/12+ (hex that lowers WS)
3) Bladewind: 9+ (direct damage that forces WS test)
4) Shroud of Dispair: 10+ (hex that removes inspiring pres)
5) Soul Stealer: 11+/14+ (temple of S2 hits, boosted double range to 36")
6) Black Horrors: 15+/25+ (vortex, small/large template).


8+ to make D3 power dice isn't going to come out ahead all that often.
If you 1 die with your level 4, you need a 3+. On a 1 or 2, you're magic phase is over for your level 4. You could go with the knife, but then you're looking at killing several models and spending a powerdie to gain D3. 1/3rd of the time, you're back where you started. Sans a few warriors, and possibly taking a wound in the process.

And you don't want +1 strength? HUH? +1 strength, as a signature on an 8+ is awesome. Remember, that's in a ASF army. It makes warriors dangerous and black guard fearsome. Any unit, outside of executioners would love +1 strength. If assassins still get thrown weapons, you'd even get the +1 strength on your shot.

Hmmm... I'm still not convinced that Power of Darkness is that great. You don't want to be taking the same lore on all your Wizards and you'll really need a Lvl4 to make the most of it. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I still think a Level 4 would be better off using Shadow, especially now you've got the item to guarantee Mindrazor.

Perhaps a Level 4 with Shadow, a Level 2 with Sac Dagger and Dark plus a Level 1 with a Scroll would work. The Level 4 is your main caster, whilst your Level 2 gets Power Dice if you need them, using the Dagger to boost if necessary. The Level 1 is just there for the Scroll.

Oh, and one more question, for Soul Stealer, is it models touched by the final position of the template, or ones touched during its scatter (i.e. the ones under originally, plus any extra it moves over due to scatter)? Matt's description makes it look like the latter, but I imagine he's paraphrasing and it's the former. It'd be cool if it wasn't though.

New Dark Magic lore is going to do some really heinous things to everyone in general...
It actually makes the Tome of Furion an auto-include if you're running 2 dark mages, since you can double up on Word of Pain! Hit a unit for the -WS, then Bladewind their arse, or go boosted and nail their Strength, then unleash Black Horror to pretty much delete an entire unit. (only S5+ units are really 'safe' and how many of those are honestly out there?!)


Daemons are pretty much kicked in the nads, (again), or at least Khorne & Slaanesh especially are much worse off... They won't want to be fighting any of those ASF Dark Elves anytime soon.
While the Slaany Herald can at least counter that ASF, she's still a pretty much impossible to protect, near-naked Elf herself and will never last more than a single round vs. an intelligent opponent. Khorne meanwhile is now the laughing stock of the 'combat Core' units in the game.

Witch Elves are also bad news bears for Beasts & Plague Drones - mass re-rolled poison attacks will make Daemon players quite cautious about where they commit those hammer units, while Initiative order striking Execs can also likely drop a Beast or two before they swing.
Actually, this is one of the rare cases where Nurgle is getting double slapped! Poison ignoring their higher toughness AND their own 'Daemon of Nurgle' rule making that poison even better due to the -1 to-hit modifier meaning more 6's auto-wounding them. (oops!)

Access to all 8 lores isn't nice either, as now DE's can access Light magic in Daemon-heavy metas. (though High Elves & Empire especially are still leagues better at abusing the dreaded Light Coven)
But access to things like Beasts, Heavens & (sickeningly) Life magic means that Dark Elves can gain some added toughness/survivability that combined with ASF + MP will mean they can now outfight most Daemonic units.

Sisters of Slaughter are a Skaven's worst nightmare, and can also be brutal to the Plaguebearer anvil. (bye-bye ranks, to a unit that honestly doesn't deal much damage in return due to basic WS3...) Oh, and a nifty little 4++ in combat too!

The new Hydras aren't really 'nerfed' per say, just different. They're still likely undercosted, and force opponents to go all out in taking them down within a single phase, or else risk the things healing back up. (and flaming is now meaningless vs. them) Plus being Special, it's easier to bring multiples + other Rare toys.
So they're just as vulnerable to cannons as before, but are no longer countered by flaming, and require all-out focusing to bring them down. And while their Flaming Breath is no longer S5, it can't be made S1-3 either, and is entirely optional! Ld is now a bit of a problem, meaning they'll need to be kept closer to the General/BSB, but gives them a better infantry supporting role. Loss of Hatred is probably the biggest 'nerf' these things took, but then their overall cost w/burny breath has only increased by a meager 5pts!

Warlocks are an absolute middle finger to Pink Horrors! And they come with Soul Blight!?! Look out for the insane synergies these guys will add to a Dark Coven list, plus they're not too shabby either with a 4++.
Tzeentch is now left wondering why his 'wizard' minions are so terrible at actual magic when some sissy elves can seemingly shoot lightning bolts outa their collective arses...

Dark Riders keeping their Fast Cav status even with shields is kinda a slap in the face to all other similar Fast Cav. A unit of 5 with all upgrades is also only 100pts. Corsairs gaining 12" on their hand bows makes them decent chaff cleaners too... They can be left to go after the Furies/Seekers while the Dark Riders can lay into the solo Beasts.



Witch Elf centric armies for sure are going to start laying the beatdown on our current 'One List'... If they become the more popular build, (or at least become an auto-include unit), then I can see Daemons forced into taking a Kipper and going for a Caco-bomb to at least completely screw with movement and give us some more favourable flanks/rear charges. (and to basically buy at least 2 'free' turns to deal with the Witches)

The only 'bright spot' really is that like HE's, the new DE's have too much to include in one list. On the downside, it's looking like DE's will have pretty much the same level of variety in their armies that HE's can bring, but with the added kick that what counters one is now lackluster vs. the other!

I worry for Mat Ward's safety as each new release further embitters you about the Daemon book.

Sigh... Experiment 626, your post once again has a large hint of "Oh, Daemons are now even worse" about it. We know you're not overly impressed with the Daemon Book, but this is a discussion about Dark Elves. It'd be nice if you could try and relate it to an army wide situation.

ASF Dark Elves are a threat to EVERYONE, not just Khorne and Slaanesh; Witch Elves have always had re-rollable poisoned attacks (admittedly not on every round but the first round is always the most crucial); access to all eight lores is pretty awesome but, unless I knew ALL I'd be playing was Daemons (and even then I may not), I'd never take Light on DE when there are lores that synergise with the army much better; where have you got the points values for the Hydra from? I haven't seen any, and I'd like to if it's available. Anyway, flaming is meaningless against them, it's now no longer needed. You can take Hydras out with a lot more things a lot more quickly now, provided you do it in one phase, which isn't all that hard to do if you commit to it.

 Eldarain wrote:
I worry for Mat Ward's safety as each new release further embitters you about the Daemon book.

Well, I at least didn't go out and spend a bundle on Nurgle everything like a goodly number of others have... (damn those Witch Elves are going to carve Nurgle a new one!)
Every Daemon player already knows Bloodletters are trash, DE's just help reinforce it some more. But Slaany players are looking on with envy now since they're really just 'weaker Dark Elves' by comparison now.

The Warlocks being everything Pink Horrors should have been is a real punch in the face to me. Horrors being base Lv2 would actually solve a lot of the magical problems Tzeentch currently faces...
Right now you only ever take Horrors as minimum 10 man units because Tzeentch lore is just bad on them and you're only aiming to 6-dice a couple of 'useful' spells, meaning your Tzheralds are shoehorned into taking Tzeentch lore as well. (to at least 'use up' spells like Bolt, Treason & Glean which are either awful or outright useless for the Pinkies)

If Pinkies were Lv2's, you'd actually be able to bring meaningful units of them instead of being forced into MSU, meaning less outright dependence on the lore attribute to be viable AND you could then use Lore of Metal on your Tzheralds to help counter the Warpflame rule more effectively.

 The Shadow wrote:
Sigh... Experiment 626, your post once again has a large hint of "Oh, Daemons are now even worse" about it. We know you're not overly impressed with the Daemon Book, but this is a discussion about Dark Elves. It'd be nice if you could try and relate it to an army wide situation.

ASF Dark Elves are a threat to EVERYONE, not just Khorne and Slaanesh; Witch Elves have always had re-rollable poisoned attacks (admittedly not on every round but the first round is always the most crucial); access to all eight lores is pretty awesome but, unless I knew ALL I'd be playing was Daemons (and even then I may not), I'd never take Light on DE when there are lores that synergise with the army much better; where have you got the points values for the Hydra from? I haven't seen any, and I'd like to if it's available. Anyway, flaming is meaningless against them, it's now no longer needed. You can take Hydras out with a lot more things a lot more quickly now, provided you do it in one phase, which isn't all that hard to do if you commit to it.

Yes, and I'm looking at the "how bad are they?" from the PoV of my own army...

While ASF & Murderous Prowess is brutal to everyone, other armies have more ways of dealing with it. Khorne & Slaanesh however don't - their only forms of damage output is either in combat or (for Slaanesh) from magic.
The new Dark Elves are going to impact their play style a helluva lot more than say Empire or High Elves or Bretonnia, etc... who can counter with 1+ saves & shooting.

I'm overall not worried so much about Light magic from DE's, (HE's & Empire do it way better), but more telling is access to the likes of Beasts, (ace in a monster mash list), Heavens and/or Life.

Warseer & Ulthuan.net have the pts values on the new Hydra. 80 skaven slaves base cost, 20 slaves for burny breath.
While the Hydra may be more vulnerable now to armies who can bring solid shooting phases and perhaps VC's who can just scream the thing to death, again, not all armies have shooting. It's going to be difficult for Daemons to deal with multiple Hydras outside of double Khannons, which obviously don't have the added bonus of the flaming attacks doing anything extra anymore.
Doubly so vs. a monster mash DE list as they can now bring Special Hydras + new Rare beasties. Add in the new Beastmaster Lord choice who comes with a Manticore, and DE's can easily bring 4-5 monsters to the table.



The new bolter chariot sounds pretty poop though... Rumored to have stats akin to e Tiranoc chariot, but for like twice the cost! Sure S7 sounds nasty, but it's ground based and putting a character on it to give it higher BS is running 300+pts!
at least the HE version can fly...
The new Rare monster is also somewhat 'meh'. S7 sure, but T5 which isn't anything to write home about for a monster. It's special ability really needs an augment that allows re-roll hits to even be considered a threat. (I guess Light Magic is at least good for this guy?!)

Bolt Throwers are same cost as HE versions, but Special choices, and can take 0-4 per army. (guessing they'll get 0-8 in a Grand Army just like HE's)
It opens up some more pts for DE's in the Rares section, meaning more pts for Warlocks which is sounding like the 'must have' Rare choice for DE's. (4++ save, Lv2 wizard, get the Direct Damage sig spell + Soul Blight, added channeling roll for the army... they're just nuts!)

Oh, and driving every single High Elf up the wall are the new Sea Dragon Cloaks - 5+ scaly sink save!lol. While I hear most Elf players in general writing off Corsairs as being irrelevant now that Witch Elves are core, a 4+ save Core infantry unit that can demolish chaff isn't anything to sneeze at...

At least the Dark Elf magic items don't have anything as stupid as The Banner though. But overall their magic item list probably tied with TK's as being 'better' than only O&G's.

Stop. Just... stop.

Dark elves. Go.

(edit)

Also, the new Dark Power looks interesting. Has to take a slot now instead of being a freebie, and the possibility of a wound hurts. Probably easily mitigated by some ward save shenanigans on a level 4?

Dark elves have always been a scary army to face with my ogres. I doubt they will loose the repeater crossbow which is the bane of ogres, in my experiance. So for me yes very scary.

 namiel wrote:
Dark elves have always been a scary army to face with my ogres. I doubt they will loose the repeater crossbow which is the bane of ogres, in my experiance. So for me yes very scary.

Repeater units are now 6 skaven slaves per model.

Hand xbows gain 12" range.

@ Ex. 626: All points taken, good to see some of the new rules coming through.

Do we have the points costs of the Warlocks?

Nice to see that Corsairs have a 4+ save across the board. I still think they'll be pretty useful (at least I hope they will - I have 40). Witch Elves are, from what I hear, more expensive and a lot less durable (though they get more benefits from the Cauldron, I guess).

And @ Evertras: It's not the wound that's the bad thing about the new Power of Darkness. It's the higher casting value and assignment to a single Lore. You really need a fairly high level Dark Magic caster with the Dagger to make it work. We're yet to see if that's the best way to go, either. At least we still have some way of getting more Power Dice back. Outside of Death/Little Waaagh Magic, most 8th edition armies have lost all their means of doing so, i.e. no Banner of Sorcery for HE any more.

Although, I'm actually feeling pretty good about Dark Magic. I think a level 4 Dark Magic caster with the Sac Dagger and a 5+/4+ Ward could be the way forward. There are good combos to be had with World of Pain + Chillwind; Power of Darkness and the regain-wounds-when-the-enemy-dies spell; Doom and Darkness (from Warlocks) and the "You no get no Inspiring Presence or Hold Yo Ground!" spell. As well as the potential perks of Power of Darkness and/or nasty 5th/6th spells.

Oh duh. I hadn't even considered the casting cost. Before you could throw a die at it and be fine, but now, yeah. At best you break even with a level 2 casting it, and if you get three dice you'll take a wound. A level 4 has a 50/50 on one die, but failure means no more spells so it's likely not happening anyway. Ouch.

 Evertras wrote:
Oh duh. I hadn't even considered the casting cost. Before you could throw a die at it and be fine, but now, yeah. At best you break even with a level 2 casting it, and if you get three dice you'll take a wound. A level 4 has a 50/50 on one die, but failure means no more spells so it's likely not happening anyway. Ouch.

There's rumours of a +1 to cast with Dark Magic, so that would mean a Lvl4 needs a 3+, like with any spell. That's fine. The problem comes with no longer being able to take a couple of Level 1s or 2sving the relatively high chance to gain loads of extra power dice at little risk. Before, Lvl1s could cast it on a 3+ and gain a potential 4 Power Dice. Now you need a Level 4 to cast it on a 3+ and you've only got a potential 3 Dice, with a higher risk involved. The extra Strength is nice, but, like I said before, I cast Power of Darkness for the Power Dice.

The item that lets you choose one spell, lets you only choose one from dark magic, when you take dark magic as your lore.
So no, you do not have anything to auto-give mind razor.

Blade Wind only hits models under the final position of the template; just like firestorm.

You could go with a level 2 with knife who uses the last power die on power of darkness, and then the knife to make it go off (needs a 6 on the 2 dice), and dice generated are then fed to the level 4 who's packing a power stone. Which, would leave you scroll-less.

15+ for a Strength test or die template is pretty good. Range can be decent, and it might be a good choice on a flying wizard (3+ ward vs shooting and magic, mounted on peg for mobility)
Likewise, WS test or S4 hit on a 9+ is pretty awesome.
You're looking at a 9+ to kill ~44% of a goblin/slave unit.
You get diminishing returns as the unit gets smaller, but to say 9+ kill ~26 out of 60 is a pretty good dent.

Also, being able to build around no inspiring presence and no BSB re-rolls is pretty huge. It's the ultimate slave killer.



Just another note; the BRB says that if you choose spells, instead of rolling them, you must choose them when your list is made. So no picking just the right spell each game against each opponent.

^Matt it's listed under the Sorceress profile as a special rule like Lileath's blessing. Also don't forget with the hydra blade you still get ASF so in most cases you'll be rerolling those HKB attacks.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The item that lets you choose one spell, lets you only choose one from dark magic, when you take dark magic as your lore.
So no, you do not have anything to auto-give mind razor.

Blade Wind only hits models under the final position of the template; just like firestorm.

You could go with a level 2 with knife who uses the last power die on power of darkness, and then the knife to make it go off (needs a 6 on the 2 dice), and dice generated are then fed to the level 4 who's packing a power stone. Which, would leave you scroll-less.

15+ for a Strength test or die template is pretty good. Range can be decent, and it might be a good choice on a flying wizard (3+ ward vs shooting and magic, mounted on peg for mobility)
Likewise, WS test or S4 hit on a 9+ is pretty awesome.
You're looking at a 9+ to kill ~44% of a goblin/slave unit.
You get diminishing returns as the unit gets smaller, but to say 9+ kill ~26 out of 60 is a pretty good dent.

Also, being able to build around no inspiring presence and no BSB re-rolls is pretty huge. It's the ultimate slave killer.



Just another note; the BRB says that if you choose spells, instead of rolling them, you must choose them when your list is made. So no picking just the right spell each game against each opponent.

In all honesty, if you're taking the Tome, then it's because you're likely running a Dark Coven magic phase and want to double up on Word of Pain in order to really make the likes of Bladewind & B.Horror wreck face...

So...what's the best way to kill them? They're still Toughness 3, right? So, flame templates, stone throwers, trying to force toughness tests (though clearly the magic phase is going to be a strength of the DE, so it might be hard to successfully cast spells) with spells or others that cause hits on every model such as The Dwellers Below?

@Experiment 626's comments about Nurgle getting "double slapped" are particularly disappointing, as I am trying to build a Nurgly WoC army and hoped that that might be the solution. The armour saves of Warriors and Knights are still going to stand up against the Witch Elves, but then again I am pretty good at rolling "1"s when I need "6"s and vice-versa.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
So...what's the best way to kill them? They're still Toughness 3, right? So, flame templates, stone throwers, trying to force toughness tests (though clearly the magic phase is going to be a strength of the DE, so it might be hard to successfully cast spells) with spells or others that cause hits on every model such as The Dwellers Below?

@Experiment 626's comments about Nurgle getting "double slapped" are particularly disappointing, as I am trying to build a Nurgly WoC army and hoped that that might be the solution. The armour saves of Warriors and Knights are still going to stand up against the Witch Elves, but then again I am pretty good at rolling "1"s when I need "6"s and vice-versa.

Anyone with a decent shooting phase will enjoy a majority T3/5+ save army, though the likes of the new Cold One Chariots, 2+ save COK's, 4+ save Corsairs, 4+ save & Fast Cav Dark Riders, 4++ Warlocks, Cloaklord on Peggie & monsters can start to add-up if they're taken in decent numbers.
With the right unit selection, Dark Elves can put out some very resilient army lists overall, though not quite as survivable as the High Elves version. (DE's lack of a 2+ save Core option gives HE's a huge boost here)

Also, keep in mind that DE's don't defend vs. magic quite as well a HE's due to the latter almost always rocking a Lv4 w/Book. Ring of Hotek may put a screw to you if you're not careful about it, but overall forcing through spells vs. DE's is no worse/harder than it is vs. any other army with a Lv4 for dispelling.


Nurgle Warriors are better off in general due to armour saves. (though I get the point about always blowing saves, it's why my Bretonnian army sucked heinously back in the day!)
Non-armoured Nurgle units however are worse off vs. Witch Elves now, especially with them being a Core choice and therefor not eating up the Specials/Rares pts like they used to.
They're also more likely to take the Flaming Banner since flaming attack poison is just plain nuts vs. regen units. Trolls will simply melt, while Beasts of Nurgle are likely to lose a 1-3 before they get their swings depending on how many angry girls there are and/or what buffs they've been given.

Razorbanner is more likely to appear on Black Guard IMHO. (S4 armour piercing is miles better than S3 armour piercing, since the -2 save means they'll deal with a lot more threats.)

Anything you'd want to take against high elves is likely to be good against dark elves.

Hydras don't get wounds back each phase, it is at the end of the controlling players turn so pretty easy to kill. It is however still somewhat threatening and should draw attention away from your squishy elves as they move in. As far as witch elves go, yes they are a little better than before as they'll more often than not reroll hits in every round. Personally I am more excited that shades and executioners have ASF and that black guard are no longer maxed out at 20 models. To those who asked, warlocks are 25 points each and can upgrade 1 to a master for 10. The hydra is now 160 base and can add a str 4 flaming breath weapon and spit fire for 20 points each.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
Oh duh. I hadn't even considered the casting cost. Before you could throw a die at it and be fine, but now, yeah. At best you break even with a level 2 casting it, and if you get three dice you'll take a wound. A level 4 has a 50/50 on one die, but failure means no more spells so it's likely not happening anyway. Ouch.

There's rumours of a +1 to cast with Dark Magic, so that would mean a Lvl4 needs a 3+, like with any spell. That's fine. The problem comes with no longer being able to take a couple of Level 1s or 2sving the relatively high chance to gain loads of extra power dice at little risk. Before, Lvl1s could cast it on a 3+ and gain a potential 4 Power Dice. Now you need a Level 4 to cast it on a 3+ and you've only got a potential 3 Dice, with a higher risk involved. The extra Strength is nice, but, like I said before, I cast Power of Darkness for the Power Dice.

Which is good, because that spell was totally broken in 7th, and still pretty bad in 8th, the bane of my magic existence is finally weakened at least.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
Oh duh. I hadn't even considered the casting cost. Before you could throw a die at it and be fine, but now, yeah. At best you break even with a level 2 casting it, and if you get three dice you'll take a wound. A level 4 has a 50/50 on one die, but failure means no more spells so it's likely not happening anyway. Ouch.

There's rumours of a +1 to cast with Dark Magic, so that would mean a Lvl4 needs a 3+, like with any spell. That's fine. The problem comes with no longer being able to take a couple of Level 1s or 2sving the relatively high chance to gain loads of extra power dice at little risk. Before, Lvl1s could cast it on a 3+ and gain a potential 4 Power Dice. Now you need a Level 4 to cast it on a 3+ and you've only got a potential 3 Dice, with a higher risk involved. The extra Strength is nice, but, like I said before, I cast Power of Darkness for the Power Dice.

Which is good, because that spell was totally broken in 7th, and still pretty bad in 8th, the bane of my magic existence is finally weakened at least.

I used it, all of once in the seventh ed book. And I picked up Dark Elves a couple of months prior to the empire 8th release. If someone remembers how long ago that was, it'd be swell if you could tell me. Dating things by book release is really a bad plan.

But yeah. It was a good spell, and still is. Before it was useful because you had it all the time, but now you have to take Dark, which whilst it is a useful lore, unlike HIgh, there are better alternatives. Like Shadow, and BEASTS! (FINALLY!)

The new empire army book was released April 2012.

You want killy? Witch Elves accompanied by a Death Hag with Witchbrew riding a Cauldron. Each regular Witch gets 4 attacks with ASF and I6, poison, and reroll ALL failed 'to wound' rolls. 15 Witches (5x3) with the Cauldron joined on the side made VERY short work of some Saurus recently. Out of 26 attacks just from the unit, I was averaging one miss a turn and about 13 wounds (before saves).

The Cauldron is damn expensive now, but ohhhh boy... O.O

Question is, how many attacks would the same points in just plain Witches have dropped? A unit of 45 drops 51 attacks, gets 45 hits (and 8 poisons), only 12 wounds on the roll but you still kill 10 Sauruses with shields... and still have about 15 bodies to soak casualties before loosing attacks.

The 15 with Cauldron dropped 22 from the front rank and 8 more from the back, 30 attacks, 22.5 hits (5 poisons), 12 wounds rolled... and 9 dead Sauruses. Add in the crew and hag, another half-dozen dead Sauruses, but each and every wound suffered costs you attacks when it's the saurus' turn.