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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Would you give a Vanguard Squad Leader a SS if you're running an HQ in the unit?

Nope, as challenges can only be issued in general to the unit at large, and I can then send my HQ to deal with it instead of the sarge. In that case I would give the sarge a power axe, so that he can dish out 3 base attacks

holy crap did I just create a rhyme?

I think what he means to do is have the Sergeant take the challenge to let the IC murder whatever they're up against.

That was my thinking, or if I let the HQ challenge and the Sarge kills the rest of the squad.
If he's just going to kill things, the Storm Shield isn't very worthwhile.

 Sir Arun wrote:


And I heard Dark Angels lost their ability to mix and match cc and ranged termies, so there's that.

DA Termies also get 1 Heavy Weapon for every 5 guys....so up to 2 in a full 10 man squad

 minigun762 wrote:
If he's just going to kill things, the Storm Shield isn't very worthwhile.

But if you take specialist weapons that remove the +1A for 2 ccws bonus (Power Fist, Lightning Claw, Relic Blade...) you might as well take the shield so prevent him from becoming a casualty to AP3 weapons.

Rhinos and Razorbacks added

 Sir Arun wrote:
Rhinos and Razorbacks added

I agree with your assessment on Razorbacks but I feel you might've dismissed the Rhino too quickly.
Drop pods are awesome but they are also only single use. The ability to keep your troops mobile and provide some protection is fairly significant.  I would seriously consider Rhinos for any back or midfield scoring unit and save drop pods for front line pressure units.

wohoo Stalker and Hunter added, I am finally done with the extensive codex review. Hope I havent missed any units

phew. honour guard, ironclad dread, sternguard vets and legion of the damned added.

I really think I'm done now.

How significant is the hidden power weapon in the Crusader squad?

15 points is not insignificant for two attacks per turn.

Nice updates to this btw -- its looking good.

Heh, sorry labmouse but I seem to have made another update

Assault Centurions added and Command Squad and Chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine entries edited.

This is what impresses me

This message was edited 90 times. Last update was at 2013/11/11 19:29:01

With regards to cc, are a pack of 10 grey hunters fundamentally better than a 10 model crusader squad? They get bolt guns/ bolt pistols/ cc weapon by default (rather than having to choose between bolters and cc weapons). We don't win out in the challenge because they don't have ICs in their squads. Also they have the counter attack rule... The only benefit I see is that we can have two power weapons in our squad, but is that enough to overcome the deficiencies?

Apologies if this is a newbie question. You might have seen this from my other thread, but I'm getting back to 40k after a really long hiatus since 3rd ed. I painted up some guys and played a few games when 6th ed came out, but haven't touched my models since. Honestly I'm really excited that BT is back. I actually played BT before the Armageddon codex. I don't know if you guys remember (or were playing back then) but the starter set box for 3rd ed had some black templar on them, and I think the rulebook showed you how to paint your guys as templar. So I'm happy to say that I was playing BT before we even had rules :-)

-AB

Grey hunters are better than crusader squads in regards to close combat. They can have a wolf guard champion, they can bring two power weapons and a rending guy, they have better basic gear and special rules and they have a great banner.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
With regards to cc, are a pack of 10 grey hunters fundamentally better than a 10 model crusader squad? They get bolt guns/ bolt pistols/ cc weapon by default (rather than having to choose between bolters and cc weapons). We don't win out in the challenge because they don't have ICs in their squads. Also they have the counter attack rule... The only benefit I see is that we can have two power weapons in our squad, but is that enough to overcome the deficiencies?

Apologies if this is a newbie question. You might have seen this from my other thread, but I'm getting back to 40k after a really long hiatus since 3rd ed. I painted up some guys and played a few games when 6th ed came out, but haven't touched my models since. Honestly I'm really excited that BT is back. I actually played BT before the Armageddon codex. I don't know if you guys remember (or were playing back then) but the starter set box for 3rd ed had some black templar on them, and I think the rulebook showed you how to paint your guys as templar. So I'm happy to say that I was playing BT before we even had rules :-)

-AB

Grey Hunters are better, full stop. You'll have some Space Wolf players whining about how they have to use an Elites slot to get a Sergeant and how unfair it is that they can't take heavy weapons, but the Grey Hunters more than make up for it. They're easily the best MEQ troops choice in the game.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
I actually played BT before the Armageddon codex. I don't know if you guys remember (or were playing back then) but the starter set box for 3rd ed had some black templar on them, and I think the rulebook showed you how to paint your guys as templar. So I'm happy to say that I was playing BT before we even had rules :-)

-AB

I'm in nearly the exact same situation, started BT after buying the 3rd ed starter. I however played a few 4th ed games but haven't played any 6th yet.

I'm quite keen to try out Honour Guard (House Guard), Biker command squads and potentially bikes as scoring units (I've bought some DA robed biker legs for a CM bike conversion already). I know in my circle of friends there's going to be a riptide and a wraith knight to deal with, biker command grav-tastic-ness is my current thinking. I also have my old LRC and bought a stormraven for assault vehicle goodness to keep the ability to field nice fluffy CC goodness.

I do feel our special characters a bit lackluster in the new 'dex and the no-love chaplains make me sad. I'm just trying to look at what I do have now rather than what I miss so I can get playing and have some fun. Maybe it's easier since everything's so new a shiney to me, or maybe it's just 'cause I'll be playing casually with friends.

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
With regards to cc, are a pack of 10 grey hunters fundamentally better than a 10 model crusader squad? They get bolt guns/ bolt pistols/ cc weapon by default (rather than having to choose between bolters and cc weapons). We don't win out in the challenge because they don't have ICs in their squads. Also they have the counter attack rule... The only benefit I see is that we can have two power weapons in our squad, but is that enough to overcome the deficiencies?

Yes. 10 GH are better than 10 BT. They get 2 special weapons -- the first one is discounted and the second on is free. When you combine the ability to add a terminator to the squad and the wolf banner, you have a superior squad.

However BT can spam 5 man units with 2 special weapons, and can bring blobs of 20 models in one unit -- something wolves cannot do.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
With regards to cc, are a pack of 10 grey hunters fundamentally better than a 10 model crusader squad? They get bolt guns/ bolt pistols/ cc weapon by default (rather than having to choose between bolters and cc weapons). We don't win out in the challenge because they don't have ICs in their squads. Also they have the counter attack rule... The only benefit I see is that we can have two power weapons in our squad, but is that enough to overcome the deficiencies?

Yes. 10 GH are better than 10 BT. They get 2 special weapons -- the first one is discounted and the second on is free. When you combine the ability to add a terminator to the squad and the wolf banner, you have a superior squad.

However BT can spam 5 man units with 2 special weapons, and can bring blobs of 20 models in one unit -- something wolves cannot do.

Yeah pretty much, it's why they are the best MEQ squad bar none.

I am a long time BT player and good write-up.

I am a fan of the 3 HB attack bikes because the twin linked bolters are not to be forgotten: 9HB and 6B-TL at 12", you completely forget about them with MM.
It is dakka on the cheap not to be ignored and can do a good follow-up assault or receive one somewhat OK.

This frees up the two MM's on the skimmers which I MUST try out which staying out of assault range and hunting something not likely to assault you is a great idea.

The StormTalon I like the skyhammer on it for the things outlined but 60" range is the most important.
Some enemies have means of decreasing a weapon's range by 6" and that pretty much voids that piece of kit, to see it anywhere on the board and always be in range is fantastic.

I fill a LR-CR with a 15man Crusader CC group and throw the HQ model of the day in it for 16 models total and it has not disappointed yet.

Saw the bikes a long way off: truly the best delivery for grav weapons as outlined with the MM attack bike just to be sure... the fast attack slot just has soooo much competitive stuff so the command squad bike option looks compelling.

Drop pod Sternguard is the only delivery system as far as I am concerned, I agree that melta and flamer combo's are all you really need due to the special ammo, I REALLY like the heavy flamer but agree tactically and points effectiveness is not as good. I really think due to the range and the way "salvo" works grav guns even as combi may not be fully utilized.

Drop pods in general are great fun with a full squad to unload on much hated things like Lootas, it appeals to the "in your face" method of warfare for BT.
Plus those overconfident Eldar Wave Serpent spam players need the occasional shots up the tailpipe to keep them honest.

Roving Rhinos (with extra pintle SB) with 5 man Las-plas squads can get very irritating to the enemy (especially at 24").

Got a 5000pt each 4 way (20,000!) apoc game to play in a few weeks so trying to maximize points use.
This is going to get ugly.

Indeed. If you guys can tell me how much a nicely kitted out Greyhunter squad costs (do they come with transports?)


...I think I can cook up a BT counter for that for the same amount of points using las/plas squads all positioned defensively and wipe them out with Plasma Cannons and Plasmaguns (or even Grav Guns if I take up the stationary role) before they reach our lines.

Also, edited the Devastators entry to include the Signum, an often overlooked piece of wargear that actually makes one of your 4 Heavy Weapons BS5. Unfortunately, unlike the Omniscope these guys have no access to wargear that gives them nightvision USR.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
With regards to cc, are a pack of 10 grey hunters fundamentally better than a 10 model crusader squad? They get bolt guns/ bolt pistols/ cc weapon by default (rather than having to choose between bolters and cc weapons). We don't win out in the challenge because they don't have ICs in their squads. Also they have the counter attack rule... The only benefit I see is that we can have two power weapons in our squad, but is that enough to overcome the deficiencies?

Yes. 10 GH are better than 10 BT. They get 2 special weapons -- the first one is discounted and the second on is free. When you combine the ability to add a terminator to the squad and the wolf banner, you have a superior squad.

However BT can spam 5 man units with 2 special weapons, and can bring blobs of 20 models in one unit -- something wolves cannot do.

Yeah pretty much, it's why they are the best MEQ squad bar none.

How do they compare with 5 wo(man) Adepta Sororitas Dominon squads with 4 Special weapons, Ignore Cover Act of Faith and Scout - might give them some competion?

Dominions aren`t really MEQ as they are T3, but yes, the dominions are probably going to do more damage, but they are not scoring, different units for different tasks.

Grey hunters are fairly good, but hardly amazing anymore.

@OP: How do you know for certain that gravguns will be nerfed?

I consider grey hunters pretty amazing still. Maybe it's because all other marines left their knives in their lockers. Oh, and can't figure out how to charge an opponent that is charging you.

 Illumini wrote:
@OP: How do you know for certain that gravguns will be nerfed?

Of course I dont know anything for certain, but given observations of how GW changes things with every codex, the usual trend is that units that everybody used to take get nerfed and units that very few used to take usually get ridiculously boosted.

E.g. in the previous SM codex, bikes were meh. Now they are extremely awesome. In the previous Eldar codex, Warwalkers were fantastic. Now they are merely okayish. In the previous Tau codex, Broadsides were the best anti-tank unit in the meta. Now they suck, and are only useful against flyers with the HYMP spam configuration because Railguns got nerfed. Similarly, in the previous Tau codex the Ioncannon sucked. Now it's almost a must have on every Hammerhead. I'm quite sure the Vendetta will get nerfed in the upcoming IG codex as there have been rumors the points will go up or the AV rating drop down to 11 etc.

War walkers are still fantastic. To think anything else is foolish. If I could have a unit with even 2/3 of its firepower for the BA, I'd be very happy.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Indeed. If you guys can tell me how much a nicely kitted out Greyhunter squad costs (do they come with transports?)


...I think I can cook up a BT counter for that for the same amount of points using las/plas squads all positioned defensively and wipe them out with Plasma Cannons and Plasmaguns (or even Grav Guns if I take up the stationary role) before they reach our lines.

Also, edited the Devastators entry to include the Signum, an often overlooked piece of wargear that actually makes one of your 4 Heavy Weapons BS5. Unfortunately, unlike the Omniscope these guys have no access to wargear that gives them nightvision USR.

And for every situation where your defensive lasplas squads win, there's one where the Grey Hunters win. If you want to take midfield objectives, like you have to most of the time, the Grey Hunters are better. Admittedly not by a massive margin, but still better. They're also better at using Drop Pods efficiently, as they can shoot as well as Tacticals and fight as well as our Crusaders (better if they're taking the charge) and get that 2+ Sergeant with the option to have one turn of 2+ rerollable. It's not a contest.

No point arguing if SW are better. The focus should be on the best way to utilize Crusader squads.

 labmouse42 wrote:
This is what impresses me

This message was edited 90 times. Last update was at 2013/11/11 19:29:01

You forgot the italics

 minigun762 wrote:
The focus should be on the best way to utilize Crusader squads.

This is absolutely true.

What is the best way to utilize crusader squads? OP mentioned 5 man las/plas squads. Without a sword brother, this is 105 points. With a sword brother and combi-plas, this comes out to 125 points. Therefore you could field 6 lascannons, 6 plasma guns, and 6 combi-plasmas for 750 points, leaving a lot of points for other units. I've just returned to the game, so I don't know if this would be considered good or bad.

What other ways can we utilize Crusader squads?

So if I were to build as competitive a list as possible around the crusader squad, how would I do it? What other units should I consider?

-ab

 ArmageddonBorn wrote:
What other ways can we utilize Crusader squads?

You can go big. Bringing 120 scoring models to the table is no joke.

forget what I said