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Vaerros wrote: Orks and tyranids come to mind as aggressors these kinds of weapons could be deployed against more often than the background tells of. Certainly that's more logical than facing down hordes of aliens with legions of infantry and tanks.
That depends on how expensive those WMDs are compared to a regiment of Imperial Guard, and how many WMDs it would take to actually get all of the enemy troops. Just blowing everything up is fast, but if it costs too much you might be better off using cheaper means to secure the planet.
Infantry have a combat range from slapping the wrist of a naughty boy all the way up to deployment of nuclear hand grenades (can you run 3 miles in 10 seconds?). Fleet firepower can only flatten things starting at about city block size.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Ailaros wrote: While doing nothing but shooting stuff with missiles doesn't work in the real world of 2013, only one, small reason is because of politics. If you could achieve your goals with nothing but missile strikes, then everyone would damn the politics and just use missiles. It turns out, though, that long range support weapons alone are ineffective at achieving your strategic objectives.
You're ignoring the fact that in the real world you can't just ignore civilian casualties. A country that used indiscriminate WMDs to win a war at the cost of millions of civilian casualties would find themselves cut off and treated as dangerous extremists like North Korea/Iran/etc. In 40k, on the other hand, civilian casualties are desirable since 99% of the time you're going to exterminate all the civilians anyway once you win the war. It's a nice bonus if the weapons that win the war by instantly vaporizing an entire army also kill some xenos/heretics/whatever civilians and tear down their blasphemous creations. And let's not forget the scorched earth tactics. Why let the enemy conquer a hive city and slaughter all the inhabitants in honor of their heretical god-emperor when you can nuke it yourself and kill the invading army at the same time? Even if you want to capture something intact the enemy is never going to let you do it, so you might as well go straight to indiscriminate WMDs.
Too bad GW will never show what "kill all of the xenos" really means and have a regiment of guardsmen assigned to go through the maternity section of the hospital in a conquered Tau city and execute all of the babies. You could even have a scene of them being thankful that the hospital was collateral damage in a nuclear strike. Not because of any moral issues, of course, but because it means they don't have to waste precious lasgun ammo.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
My two cents:
One of the biggest influence on W40k is Robert A Heinlein´s "Starship Troopers". There is an answer in this book for the question asked here.
Spoiler:
“There are a dozen different ways of delivering destruction in impersonal wholesale, via ships and missiles of one sort or another, catastrophes so widespread, so unselective, that the war is over because that nation or planet has ceased to exist. What we do is entirely different. We make war as personal as a punch in the nose. We can be selective, applying precisely the required amount of pressure at the specified point at a designated time . . . .
We are the boys who go to a particular place, at H-hour, occupy a designated terrain, stand on it, dig the enemy out of their holes, force them then and there to surrender or die. We're the bloody infantry, the doughboy, the duckfoot, the foot soldier who goes where the enemy is and takes him on in person. We've been doing it, with changes in weapons but very little change in our trade, at least since the time five thousand years ago when the foot sloggers of Sargon the Great forced the Sumerians to cry "Uncle!"
Maybe they'll be able to do without us someday. Maybe some mad genius with myopia, a bulging forehead, and a cybernetic mind will devise a weapon that can go down a hole, pick out the opposition, adn force it to surrender or die--without killing that gang of your own people they've got imprisoned down there. I wouldn't know; I'm not a genius, I'm an M.I. In the meantime, until they build a machine to replace us, my mates can handle that job--and I might be some help on it, too.”
Keep in mind he is talking about sending Space Marines in Power Armour to a planet instead of using orbital bombardments.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Spetulhu wrote: Orks and tyranids come to mind as aggressors these kinds of weapons could be deployed against more often than the background tells of. Certainly that's more logical than facing down hordes of aliens with legions of infantry and tanks.
Actually, Tyrannids lead to exterminatus almost all the friggin' time in fluff sources. Your line of reasoning that tyranids should cause the Imperium to use exterminates more often is true, but it's also true that they already DO that in the fluff anyways. Kryptman destroyed tons of Imperial planets, there's a Space Wolves comic that ends in exterminates, the Daemons vs Tyrannids incident ended in Exterminatus.... really, I think "Exterminatus" gets mentioned more often than not when it comes to Tyrannids.
Your reasoning is flawed regarding the orks, though. They actually take slaves and keep industry forges intact so they can use those things to continue to fuel their war machine. The Imperium would not conduct exterminatus in those cases if it values those lives (or at least, those lives' productivity) and manufactorums more than the infantry set to take it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/11 15:27:00
Guardsmen are cheap, the production of which happens in mass in the bedrooms/streets of hive worlds, weaponry and its production in the 40k lore is limited by control of the mechanicum and the ignorance of the masses. Loyal factory worlds and forge worlds are limited, as are resources on loyal worlds due to 10k years of total war footing, you do not use weapons that could damage later economic advantages unless its the last option (krieg last stand/no resources or production left/its a hive world on a dead planet (we have enough of them)/tyranids are winning and have turned everything useful to biomass).
Codex Space Marines - Astral Skulls
9500 points. Full 4th Company ready to deploy!
One of the reasons that has been mentioned a few times is that destroying worlds is not what they are going for. They need every world they can get as it is so blowing up every one that causes trouble would leave them without anything. Secondly despite what has been said you cannot capture land without infantry. You can make it so that no one gets it but if you want it back you must send in ground forces eventually. In Vietnam Despite having complete air superiority and dropping more bombs then were dropped in all of WWII by all countries the Viet Cong were not defeated and after a while hardly even inconvenienced by this. Air superiority doesn't mean a whole lot without feet on the ground to exploit it. Take into account how many ways there are in the setting to try and stop them from dropping the dooms day bombs or what have you it becomes easier to just land troops a thousand miles away and start marching.
Planets are valuable, and sometimes the things on them. Capturing these things is a good idea now and then, not necessarily obliterating the surface from 1,000 miles away safely in orbit.
White Ninja wrote: In Vietnam Despite having complete air superiority and dropping more bombs then were dropped in all of WWII by all countries the Viet Cong were not defeated and after a while hardly even inconvenienced by this.
Again, that's because in the real world we have to at least pretend to care about civilian casualties. If we were fighting the war by 40k standards we would have just nuked Vietnam off the map with long-range bombers/missiles and ended the war in a day or two. Remember, our goal was to "stop communism", Vietnam itself didn't have anything of value to us. In fact by 40k rules we would have had to kill everyone in South Vietnam anyway because they've been exposed to chaos communism, so indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons would have just made the eventual extermination process a bit easier.
Take into account how many ways there are in the setting to try and stop them from dropping the dooms day bombs or what have you it becomes easier to just land troops a thousand miles away and start marching.
You don't need exotic doomsday bombs, just tactical nuclear weapons. If you're close enough for your Basilisks to shell enemy targets you're close enough for those Basilisks to use nuclear shells instead and wipe out the entire enemy army. If you're calling in air strikes with explosive bombs you can call in air strikes with nuclear bombs. If you're landing drop pods full of marines you can land drop pods full of nukes. Etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
da001 wrote: One of the biggest influence on W40k is Robert A Heinlein´s "Starship Troopers". There is an answer in this book for the question asked here.
Except that's a bad example. In 40k you don't worry about killing your own troops that the enemy has captured because even if you "rescue" them you're going to execute them anyway for exposure to xenos heresy/failing to obey orders to fight to the death/etc. Not that anyone in 40k (except maybe the Tau) would actually take prisoners for longer than the time it takes to interrogate and torture them before executing them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/11 21:08:26
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
White Ninja wrote: In Vietnam Despite having complete air superiority and dropping more bombs then were dropped in all of WWII by all countries the Viet Cong were not defeated and after a while hardly even inconvenienced by this.
Again, that's because in the real world we have to at least pretend to care about civilian casualties. If we were fighting the war by 40k standards we would have just nuked Vietnam off the map with long-range bombers/missiles and ended the war in a day or two. Remember, our goal was to "stop communism", Vietnam itself didn't have anything of value to us. In fact by 40k rules we would have had to kill everyone in South Vietnam anyway because they've been exposed to chaos communism, so indiscriminate use of nuclear weapons would have just made the eventual extermination process a bit easier.
Most planets that the Imperium were attacking were owned by the Imperium first, unlike Vietnam. America, if they had no moral qualms, could carpet Vietnam into oblivion and be happy with that and leave. For the Imperium, however, carpet bombing something that they used to own is a LOSE because they can't own that thing any more now. It'd be like if America once owned Vietnam, but then Vietnam rebelled against America. In that case, bombing Vietnam would be a lose for America because what they once owned is now not their's anymore (instead, it's now a barren ash wasteland)
When you're the faction that's on the defensive like the Imperium is, Exterminatus basically means you lost..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/10/11 21:14:18
da001 wrote: My two cents:
One of the biggest influence on W40k is Robert A Heinlein´s "Starship Troopers". There is an answer in this book for the question asked here.
Spoiler:
“There are a dozen different ways of delivering destruction in impersonal wholesale, via ships and missiles of one sort or another, catastrophes so widespread, so unselective, that the war is over because that nation or planet has ceased to exist. What we do is entirely different. We make war as personal as a punch in the nose. We can be selective, applying precisely the required amount of pressure at the specified point at a designated time . . . .
We are the boys who go to a particular place, at H-hour, occupy a designated terrain, stand on it, dig the enemy out of their holes, force them then and there to surrender or die. We're the bloody infantry, the doughboy, the duckfoot, the foot soldier who goes where the enemy is and takes him on in person. We've been doing it, with changes in weapons but very little change in our trade, at least since the time five thousand years ago when the foot sloggers of Sargon the Great forced the Sumerians to cry "Uncle!"
Maybe they'll be able to do without us someday. Maybe some mad genius with myopia, a bulging forehead, and a cybernetic mind will devise a weapon that can go down a hole, pick out the opposition, adn force it to surrender or die--without killing that gang of your own people they've got imprisoned down there. I wouldn't know; I'm not a genius, I'm an M.I. In the meantime, until they build a machine to replace us, my mates can handle that job--and I might be some help on it, too.”
Keep in mind he is talking about sending Space Marines in Power Armour to a planet instead of using orbital bombardments.
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
What we can easily say though, is 40k opts for to many punches in the nose and not enough coordinate pin point firepower from space or air. I'm reading Fire Caste right now, and there is 0 plausible reason for either side to ever be fighting over the planet they are on (ignoring the ignorance of the fact it's planet nurgle, there is no resource on the planet worth fighting over, for either the Tau or Imperium, not even a strategic one of positioning for some other conflict). It's a total 'glass the enemy from orbit' scenario.
TiamatRoar wrote: For the Imperium, however, carpet bombing something that they used to own is a LOSE because they can't own that thing any more now.
Again, we're playing by 40k rules, not by real-world rules. The enemy almost certainly has a scorched-earth policy in place (unless they're Tyranids, in which case they already ate whatever they took from you) so as soon as you get close to recapturing it the exterminatus bombs go off. Either way you're not going to claim anything of value, so you might as well just kill the enemy efficiently.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
The poor bloody infantry are like a scalpel on the average scale of theatres in the 40k universe. They probe, they prod, they do a lot of important and precise work. Even beyond this, they are a far more verifiable way to deal with an emplaced or invading enemy, without doing something like killing every last semblance of life on the agriworld that feeds the rest of the star system, and a half-dozen worlds beyond.
Carnifexes can survive exterminatus attempts using cyclonic torpedoes, living metal seems to be some genuinely durable stuff, and space-elves are some nasty individuals to have hunting you for razing their cradle worlds to the ground. Scorched earth only works if you're not severely damaging your own efforts, supplies, and logistical chain in the process. Contrary to popular belief, it's not the guys on the ground, with the guns that win wars, it's the guys supplying the guys on the ground with food, boot polish, ammo, and pornography. Break your enemy's logistics chain, break your enemy. Simple as that.
Things I've gotten other players to admit...
Foldalot: Pariahs can sometimes be useful
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
Space Marines.
Seriously. Heinlein did it first. Don't watch the movie, read the book. Power Armored troops descending by drop-ship or jump-packs from orbit to deliver uncompromising total war to the enemy, directly to their faces.
Power Armor? Heinlein created the concept for the genre of science-fiction. Sixty-plus years ago.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
da001 wrote: One of the biggest influence on W40k is Robert A Heinlein´s "Starship Troopers". There is an answer in this book for the question asked here.
Except that's a bad example. In 40k you don't worry about killing your own troops that the enemy has captured because even if you "rescue" them you're going to execute them anyway for exposure to xenos heresy/failing to obey orders to fight to the death/etc. Not that anyone in 40k (except maybe the Tau) would actually take prisoners for longer than the time it takes to interrogate and torture them before executing them.
If they want to kill everything, they use exterminatus. That´s OK against nids or demons. But sometimes it is needed a more subtle approach. That´s what infantry is for. By bombing the planet, you render it useless, and lose lots of resources. It is (at best) a phyrric victory. Scorched land tactic, not conquest.
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
What we can easily say though, is 40k opts for to many punches in the nose and not enough coordinate pin point firepower from space or air. I'm reading Fire Caste right now, and there is 0 plausible reason for either side to ever be fighting over the planet they are on (ignoring the ignorance of the fact it's planet nurgle, there is no resource on the planet worth fighting over, for either the Tau or Imperium, not even a strategic one of positioning for some other conflict). It's a total 'glass the enemy from orbit' scenario.
Just my opinion, of course, but I think it is a big influence.
MI in movies -> Cadian Imperial Guard (and Bugs -> Tyranids).
MI (aka Space Marines) in the book(s) -> Adeptus Astartes (aka Space Marines).
Even if the planet has nothing of value, it is still a planet. It can be colonized, and turned into a prosperous loyal world.
Carnifexes can survive exterminatus attempts using cyclonic torpedoes, living metal seems to be some genuinely durable stuff, and space-elves are some nasty individuals to have hunting you for razing their cradle worlds to the ground. Scorched earth only works if you're not severely damaging your own efforts, supplies, and logistical chain in the process.
^This. Also, see Istvaan III or Codex: Grey Knights page 17 (Sondheim V) for a brutal orbital bombardment on Astartes. If you want them dead, you need to get close.
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
Space Marines.
Seriously. Heinlein did it first. Don't watch the movie, read the book. Power Armored troops descending by drop-ship or jump-packs from orbit to deliver uncompromising total war to the enemy, directly to their faces.
Power Armor? Heinlein created the concept for the genre of science-fiction. Sixty-plus years ago.
^Yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/11 22:34:59
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
da001 wrote: One of the biggest influence on W40k is Robert A Heinlein´s "Starship Troopers". There is an answer in this book for the question asked here.
Except that's a bad example. In 40k you don't worry about killing your own troops that the enemy has captured because even if you "rescue" them you're going to execute them anyway for exposure to xenos heresy/failing to obey orders to fight to the death/etc. Not that anyone in 40k (except maybe the Tau) would actually take prisoners for longer than the time it takes to interrogate and torture them before executing them.
If they want to kill everything, they use exterminatus. That´s OK against nids or demons. But sometimes it is needed a more subtle approach. That´s what infantry is for. By bombing the planet, you render it useless, and lose lots of resources. It is (at best) a phyrric victory. Scorched land tactic, not conquest.
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
What we can easily say though, is 40k opts for to many punches in the nose and not enough coordinate pin point firepower from space or air. I'm reading Fire Caste right now, and there is 0 plausible reason for either side to ever be fighting over the planet they are on (ignoring the ignorance of the fact it's planet nurgle, there is no resource on the planet worth fighting over, for either the Tau or Imperium, not even a strategic one of positioning for some other conflict). It's a total 'glass the enemy from orbit' scenario.
Just my opinion, of course, but I think it is a big influence.
MI in movies -> Cadian Imperial Guard (and Bugs -> Tyranids).
MI (aka Space Marines) in the book(s) -> Adeptus Astartes (aka Space Marines).
Even if the planet has nothing of value, it is still a planet. It can be colonized, and turned into a prosperous loyal world.
Carnifexes can survive exterminatus attempts using cyclonic torpedoes, living metal seems to be some genuinely durable stuff, and space-elves are some nasty individuals to have hunting you for razing their cradle worlds to the ground. Scorched earth only works if you're not severely damaging your own efforts, supplies, and logistical chain in the process.
^This. Also, see Istvaan III or Codex: Grey Knights page 17 (Sondheim V) for a brutal orbital bombardment on Astartes. If you want them dead, you need to get close.
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
Space Marines.
Seriously. Heinlein did it first. Don't watch the movie, read the book. Power Armored troops descending by drop-ship or jump-packs from orbit to deliver uncompromising total war to the enemy, directly to their faces.
Power Armor? Heinlein created the concept for the genre of science-fiction. Sixty-plus years ago.
^Yes.
The closest thing to the MI are the Tau Farsight Enclaves. They're the only faction to have a heavily jump infantry based army with high firepower. Space Marines, a whole chapter full, isn't worth 10 MI. 10 MI would smoke 1000 marines like a cheap cigar and never break a sweat.
I've read the book, several times. It's one of my favorite pieces of science fiction. Space Marines suck $$$ in comparison. It is a far better written and thought out take on a facist society engaged in a perpetual war.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 02:03:02
TiamatRoar wrote: For the Imperium, however, carpet bombing something that they used to own is a LOSE because they can't own that thing any more now.
Again, we're playing by 40k rules, not by real-world rules. The enemy almost certainly has a scorched-earth policy in place (unless they're Tyranids, in which case they already ate whatever they took from you).
They do? Most of the time, Chaos Marines and even Orks want to hold onto the stuff too, and apparently seldom have ways to scorch the earth fast enough once the Imperium comes a knockin' seeing as to how rare they seem to do it in any stories. Usually it's the Imperium that's scorching its earth (hell, exterminatus is basically one big LITERAL scorch earth policy), but other armies usually don't care to or don't have the resources to.
The only factions that really end up destroying everything are daemons and tyrannids (and maybe necrons). And, as is logical, they're usually the factions that result in exterminatus the most (including Necrons, who also usually result in Exterminatus). So basically, the two or three factions most prone to scorching the earth of their own accord (yea, it's not because they WANT to do a scorched earth policy, but the end result of a scorched earth is the same) already result in Exterminatus pretty darn often in the fluff, anyways.
Not that there aren't stories that are flawed, of course. Fire Caste above seems like a good example. Most of the time, however, there's something of value that both parties want and only the Imperium has the resources to destroy everything.
As an aside, at least some writers realize that if the planet holds nothing of value, exterminatus is the way to go. For the Damacles crusade, the Imperium did just that when they came across a Tau ocean planet that they saw no strategic value in owning.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/12 02:31:06
The way I see it is very much like those procedural cop/investigation shows. Most of the time the bad guy is stupid and easily caught OR they never get the evidence/break they need. But neither are dramatic and the shows focus on those cases where there is drama. Likewise I assume there are often times when the rear section of an ork horde is blown to dust by the arriving Imperial fleet, but there's no drama in that, no 28mm scale battle to have. Every battle is that exception, where for some reason you couldn't just nuke it from orbit
Spetulhu wrote: Orks and tyranids come to mind as aggressors these kinds of weapons could be deployed against more often than the background tells of. Certainly that's more logical than facing down hordes of aliens with legions of infantry and tanks.
Actually, Tyrannids lead to exterminatus almost all the friggin' time in fluff sources. Your line of reasoning that tyranids should cause the Imperium to use exterminates more often is true, but it's also true that they already DO that in the fluff anyways. Kryptman destroyed tons of Imperial planets, there's a Space Wolves comic that ends in exterminates, the Daemons vs Tyrannids incident ended in Exterminatus.... really, I think "Exterminatus" gets mentioned more often than not when it comes to Tyrannids.
Your reasoning is flawed regarding the orks, though. They actually take slaves and keep industry forges intact so they can use those things to continue to fuel their war machine. The Imperium would not conduct exterminatus in those cases if it values those lives (or at least, those lives' productivity) and manufactorums more than the infantry set to take it.
That's a fair point regarding the orks. There are, however, instances of Imperial forces marching out to meet ork hordes in force where I think bombardment should've been a factor(or more of one). I'm trying to recall if that was the situation in Dawn of War, with ork investing the planet's jungles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/12 07:27:14
Let's say you're a fleet commander, and you've got a few imperial guard armies tagging along (because they're super cheap to create and maintain. You know what, have three imperial guard armies), and you've also got a giant battlefleet with enough missiles to destroy all life on a planet twice over.
You're in your situation room, and you've got some situations. On Phalax III, your naval base, heretics have risen on the planet and taken over your ports drydocks, and battleship parts factories. On Wargram IV, orks have invaded, and a fierce fight is roiling over your planet-killing missile factories, and there are sketchy reports and rumors of a huge tyranid fleet approaching.
What do you do?
The stupid answer is to say "I've got enough missiles to kill two planets" and completely annihilate Wargram and Phalax. Oops, looks like you don't have any battleships or missiles anymore. Hope the tyranid don't invade.
The smart answer is to send in your guardsmen to kill the orks and heretics without doing any damage to your drydocks and missile factories and save the missiles in case the tyranid show up, and you need to shoot them with a huge quantity of firepower.
Completely ignoring politics, there's plenty of reason why you use infantry to do stuff, rather than NUKE EVARYTHING FROM ORBITZ!!!!!1!!!!eleven!!
While doing nothing but shooting stuff with missiles doesn't work in the real world of 2013, only one, small reason is because of politics. If you could achieve your goals with nothing but missile strikes, then everyone would damn the politics and just use missiles. It turns out, though, that long range support weapons alone are ineffective at achieving your strategic objectives.
Which is why you have infantry. Because you want to actually win wars, not merely throw around a few fireballs and call it a day.
Good points, but what about races that have no interest in holding land or infrastructure, such as Crons. In IA12 it was shown that they could wipe out large portions of land, yet only used this ability sparingly, despite the fact that it was shown to be nothing out of the ordinary as far as their firepower was concerned.
WMG: The last ever story of 40k will finally hit M42; only to reveal that Trazyn has completed his greatest heist; stuffing the entire universe into a hyper-pocket.
Thus ending the true and grandest conflict of 40k.
The contest of thievery between the Blood Ravens and Trazyn.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: Another possibility is that advanced human/xenos cities are sometimes shielded against orbital bombardment. You could have a hive city with void shields stronger than a battleship (in fact if I was building a hive city, it would be a no-brainer to include those for this exact reason). So even with orbital supremacy, you still need to put boots on the ground to take out their shield generators.
This is untrue. In Necropolis, the city's void shields eventually break to conventional bombardment after a few weeks. It's therefore logical to assume that they would shatter against the far stronger orbital bombardment.
GW has constructed a universe where space power is NOT the supreme be all and end all of the military forces. Arguing how it "should" be in your own personal fan universe has no bearing on the paradigm for the fictional universe that GW as IP holder has constructed.
In the 40K universe paradigm, space power is one arm, an important one, but not the only one that matters. In particular, with reference to the BFG rulebook, the firepower of ground defense installations actually is superior to a bombarding ship, and is likely far more affordable in terms of cost. The average planetary defense laser silo packs almost as much firepower as the broadside of a Gothic cruiser, with greater range than the Gothic. Likewise, the average planetary defense missile silo has the launch capacity of a full cruiser, and the average planetary defense air base has enough short range aerospace fighters and bombers to match a Dictator cruiser. These capabilities are all pulled direct from the rulebook and are not a matter of personal opinion. Ground defenses pack equivalent or superior firepower at a much lower points cost (and presumably lower monetary cost) compared to a starship which needs to be mobile and warp capable.
we can see the defenses of each hive on Armageddon comprised at least 4 air bases, 8 missile silos, and 8 laser silos. That kind of firepower would be enough to shred your average navy frigate, and even your average cruiser, if they tried to bombard the hive. Even if one takes Armageddon to be a more heavily defended than usual hive world, it still gives a rough gauge of the defenses a typical hive or fortress/Kasr might have, which still is likely to overpower most spaceships.
Then we have multiple examples extant in the universe of facilities and cities shielded by void shields or other more esoteric shields, so orbital bombardment isn't some instant "I win" card.
Now before anyone tries to mention battleships, the example of the Gothic Sector in BFG showed a sector has on average about 2-3 battleships as part of its fleet. These are limited assets that are not easily replaceable and exposing them to ground fire risks either catastrophic loss or damage sufficient to send them to the dock for a lengthy period of time during which they are out of action.
xruslanx wrote: This is untrue. In Necropolis, the city's void shields eventually break to conventional bombardment after a few weeks. It's therefore logical to assume that they would shatter against the far stronger orbital bombardment.
This is untrue. The city's void shields are deactivated by Salvador Sondar as he finally succumbs to chaos infection.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
"Oh look - lots and lots of tyranids are landing on planet to harvest us for biomass, what shall we do?"
"Well we can't fight them off - we don't have any ground forces"
"What?!? Why not???"
"Well when those orks landed for a fight a few years ago we managed to scare them off by pulling silly faces. And remember last year when those dark eldar came to enslave us? We were able to solve it with a game of sharades rather than a silly little ground war."
"But what about that cultist uprising in the subhive last month? Surely we put them down with our ground forces?"
"Don't be silly, we bought them off with chocolate, flowers and bunny rabbits."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/12 13:14:36
Inky wrote: In a setting where even medium ships can completely raze huge swathes of land, what's the point of many races even putting ground troops down?
Say some IG were besieging some Necron palace thing, and both races were taking a huge interest in the conflict, how would their ships act?
What i'm trying to say is, how on earth do space/star ships interact with the boots on floor, tanks and taking ground of the familiar 40k?
40k is objective based.
Imagine there is a priceless relic(STC for something juicy) on the surface of a planet surrounded by a billion chaos cultists who revere it as a god and have built a huge subterrainian complex to house and protect said relic. What are you going to do, bombard it and risk losing the relic?
Or what if there is a renegade preacher spreading lies about the emperor? You could kill him but wouldnt it be better to capture him and force him to publicly repent? Martyrs are not fun.
In fact 2k(today) is objetive based. Why do we still have gound troops when we have aircraft that can raze cities?
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an influence. Where is your MI on the table top? However, it does bring up why ground combat isn't pointless.
Just my opinion, of course, but I think it is a big influence.
MI in movies -> Cadian Imperial Guard (and Bugs -> Tyranids).
MI (aka Space Marines) in the book(s) -> Adeptus Astartes (aka Space Marines).
The closest thing to the MI are the Tau Farsight Enclaves. They're the only faction to have a heavily jump infantry based army with high firepower. Space Marines, a whole chapter full, isn't worth 10 MI. 10 MI would smoke 1000 marines like a cheap cigar and never break a sweat.
I've read the book, several times. It's one of my favorite pieces of science fiction. Space Marines suck $$$ in comparison. It is a far better written and thought out take on a facist society engaged in a perpetual war.
Which is a difference: MI are far more powerful than Astares. There are more differences.
For instance, Astartes have heraldic insignias, exactly like knight orders. Knight orders are a clear influence for the Adeptus Astartes (Space Marines). Mobile Infantry (also referred as Space Marines) do not use heraldry. And they are jump infantry. And stronger.
However, MI are Space Marines in Power Armour brainwashed by military propaganda and send by Drop Pod to fight aliens and save mankind, in a disturbing Sci-fi setting where humanity has become a facist society engaged in a perpetual war.
There are differences, they are not exactly the same, but they a take on the same concept with very similar results.
Still a matter of interpretation. I am surprised you think Tau are closer to MI than Astartes.
40k is objective based.
Imagine there is a priceless relic(STC for something juicy) on the surface of a planet surrounded by a billion chaos cultists who revere it as a god and have built a huge subterrainian complex to house and protect said relic. What are you going to do, bombard it and risk losing the relic?
Or what if there is a renegade preacher spreading lies about the emperor? You could kill him but wouldnt it be better to capture him and force him to publicly repent? Martyrs are not fun.
In fact 2k(today) is objetive based. Why do we still have gound troops when we have aircraft that can raze cities?
Well said. Both 40k and 2k are objective based.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
Iracundus wrote: GW has constructed a universe where space power is NOT the supreme be all and end all of the military forces.
No, they really haven't. They've constructed a universe in which space power exists and no faction has any moral objection to using it, and then handwaved it away so they can have WWI trench battles in space.
Ground defenses pack equivalent or superior firepower at a much lower points cost (and presumably lower monetary cost) compared to a starship which needs to be mobile and warp capable.
So how exactly do ground armies (which are composed of WWI-era tanks and screaming idiots with chainswords) ever beat ground defenses? If these defenses are capable of engaging starships with a reasonable expectation of winning they would massacre any 40k ground forces effortlessly. The fact that we don't see this happening implies that either the description of ground defenses is wrong, or that high-end ground defenses are virtually nonexistent.
And of course this still doesn't say anything about ground-based WMDs. For example, if you're shelling a hive city and its defending army with Basilisks why wouldn't you give them nuclear shells?
Then we have multiple examples extant in the universe of facilities and cities shielded by void shields or other more esoteric shields, so orbital bombardment isn't some instant "I win" card.
And we have multiple examples of battles happening outside of those defenses. For example, Armageddon had battles in the wastelands outside the hive cities, and every one of those battles should have been resolved in seconds with nuclear weapons.
Exergy wrote: Imagine there is a priceless relic(STC for something juicy) on the surface of a planet surrounded by a billion chaos cultists who revere it as a god and have built a huge subterrainian complex to house and protect said relic. What are you going to do, bombard it and risk losing the relic?
That's exactly what I would do, because if I were the cult leader I'd ensure that the relic is sitting on top of a nuke on a dead man's switch so that if I die I will take my relic and the invading army with me. Since I know that recovery of the relic is impossible there is no reason to spend valuable ground forces to kill those billion cultists.
Or what if there is a renegade preacher spreading lies about the emperor? You could kill him but wouldnt it be better to capture him and force him to publicly repent? Martyrs are not fun.
I would nuke the renegade preacher and their entire city from orbit and broadcast the attack as a warning to anyone with similar ideas. Capturing the preacher is impossible because the preacher knows perfectly well what happens to captured heretics and will fight to the death.
Why do we still have gound troops when we have aircraft that can raze cities?
Because in the real world we don't like it when people raze entire cities to kill a target, and doing so would get the rest of the world to treat you like North Korea. In 40k civilian casualties from indiscriminate use of WMDs are a nice bonus because it means fewer civilians for your ground troops to exterminate once you win the war.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
xruslanx wrote: This is untrue. In Necropolis, the city's void shields eventually break to conventional bombardment after a few weeks. It's therefore logical to assume that they would shatter against the far stronger orbital bombardment.
This is untrue. The city's void shields are deactivated by Salvador Sondar as he finally succumbs to chaos infection.
I'm pretty sure the bombardment weakens them almost to the point of collapse, doesn't it? Been a while since I read it mind.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
3200 points 
2500 points 
Blood Ravens, 1700pts
Khorne 750pts
Space Wolves 1550pts
Orks 500pts
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
