Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 azreal13 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Dipping is cheating. Washing is cheating. Airbrushing is cheating. Anyone who's ever taken a peek at the Painting subsection has seen these threads coming up since at least the mid 2000s. I guess we can add weathering powders to the list now that they've become widely available. They were just fine as long as only "experts" had access to them.

Perhaps you can explain to me where this accusation of cheating is coming from? (Not a loaded question, honest request)

All I've seen is people expressing a dislike for the over use of a technique or applying excessive amounts of some sort of technical aid in order to try and mask a poor job (and, IMO, frequently make it look worse by doing so)

What LadyCassandra said. And I wouldn't have posted at all if this had been an isolated incident but these kinds of posts come up again and again. I can't help but think that some elitist hobbyists feel threatened by the new generation being able to achieve good results in less time and claim that good paintjobs somehow "don't count" if they're not done in the traditional manner.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
looks awesome. the copper rust will be great for scenery painters methinks.

I should hope not - at least not at GW prices for paints. A trip to your local craft store will yield dozens of options which cost half as much and provide 5 times the material for the same effect - especially on things like terrain. Using GW paints in order to do terrain...well, it is a bit like just taking money out of your wallet and lighting it on fire.

Even with just using the weathering effects, I ended up using (3) 2 ounce bottles of verdigris to weather a single steam punk refinery that I did this past summer. I bought all three bottles for $5 or so. Doing the same with the GW version of that would likely cost upwards of $30. Doesn't sound like much - but if you get into building terrain, all those nickels and dimes add up really quick when you are buying plastic tube, sheet, fittings, couple metal castings, 1/4 sheet of plywood, foam...

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Woodland Scenics water products and the like are easily found in model and train stores - and in quantities that make game store products look like a joke.

Too bad noone plays model train anymore so that only a few mail order stores per continent survive.

I'd guess it to be about the same size market as the number of people who "play" with toy soldiers - probably even a little higher based on anecdotal evidence like the number of print magazines which support that hobby versus this one (I currently subscribe to 8 different ones and that is only a fraction of them).

Regular hobby stores are more common in the US than regular game stores from my experience. Most game related retailers tend to be tacked on to a regular hobby store or a regular comic book store in order to expand their customer base - but it tends to be a fraction of the whole store as opposed to a majority. However, I don't recall the time I was in a town with less than 50,000 people or so that I wasn't able to find a hobby store that had finescale models as its focus (both model railroads and static models).

 Eisenhorn wrote:

Back in the day no one used acrylics only enamels,are you cheating by using acrylic?
No your not.

And, strangely enough - back in the day (not quite as many days back though) - no one used enamels and oils, they only used acrylics. Now everyone and their brother seems to have "discovered" that enamels and oils are outstanding for doing washes, weathering and glazes (still hands down the best paints for doing flesh).

Most people seem to miss that all the various tools are effective and don't speak to the level of skill of the person using them. The important thing is the end result. It is sort of like the hand tool snobs who I bump into with one of my other hobbies who seem to think that a piece of furniture is better because it was entirely done with hand tools and they didn't use a table saw to rip the wood down or things like planers or jointers to surface it. In the end, the only way that you can tell the difference between the two when done well is that the one done only with hand tools is less perfect.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 brassangel wrote:

A lot of that is just a below average, to mediocre painter's way of achieving a "cool" effect without actually trying to learn a technique. So they slop on Tamiya Clear, pigment powders, or wash-heavy rust colors.

No, it's actually about old farts being butthurt that some people are inventing new tools and techniques that look equally good but take less effort.

Not so much inventing - rather looking at any of the finescale modeling outlets (take a look at the Osprey Modeling Masterclass books and compare them to the Forge World et. al. inventions...many of those Osprey books are 20+ years old too).

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Woodland Scenics water products and the like are easily found in model and train stores - and in quantities that make game store products look like a joke.

Too bad noone plays model train anymore so that only a few mail order stores per continent survive.

What's making me chortle at your comment is that you're writing from, I believe, Germany, the Mecca of model railroading. There's a German store for everything one could ever wish for in 1:87 scale.

And every brick and mortar store I ever bought model railroad things in, doesn't exist anymore. Most boys now play computer, only a few sentimental old folks left, not enough to support a local store. Even the flagship magazine of USA, the Model Railroader, is only a shade of its former glory, less than half its page count than a few years ago.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Woodland Scenics water products and the like are easily found in model and train stores - and in quantities that make game store products look like a joke.

Too bad noone plays model train anymore so that only a few mail order stores per continent survive.

What's making me chortle at your comment is that you're writing from, I believe, Germany, the Mecca of model railroading. There's a German store for everything one could ever wish for in 1:87 scale.

And every brick and mortar store I ever bought model railroad things in, doesn't exist anymore. Most boys now play computer, only a few sentimental old folks left, not enough to support a local store. Even the flagship magazine of USA, the Model Railroader, is only a shade of its former glory, less than half its page count than a few years ago.

I think it must partly be local to you, in my local town there are two railway modelling stores, one exclusively railroad only, and another couple within 15 mins or so drive.

Wargaming wise, the nearest store that isn't a GW's or sell exclusively GW stuff, is an hour away.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Woodland Scenics water products and the like are easily found in model and train stores - and in quantities that make game store products look like a joke.

Too bad noone plays model train anymore so that only a few mail order stores per continent survive.

What's making me chortle at your comment is that you're writing from, I believe, Germany, the Mecca of model railroading. There's a German store for everything one could ever wish for in 1:87 scale.

And every brick and mortar store I ever bought model railroad things in, doesn't exist anymore. Most boys now play computer, only a few sentimental old folks left, not enough to support a local store. Even the flagship magazine of USA, the Model Railroader, is only a shade of its former glory, less than half its page count than a few years ago.

http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/6302

Some pretty graphs to illustrate things.

Same here: railway store 3 miles out, 8 miles out, 10 miles out, and two of them about 15 miles out. This is just the ones I know about mind you; haven't really gone looking for them. This contrasts with two GW stores each about 8 to 10 miles out and two FLGSs, 10 and 15 miles out respectively. Now I'm pretty sure I'd know about anything wargaming-related; I'm also pretty sure I don't know the half of it when it comes to (primarily) model train stores.

What you have to remember is that, while the crowd that buys into it might be relatively small, those rail hobby stores have two advantages demographically: first of all, the average model rail hobbyist is flat-out rich compared to the average wargamer. We have to ponder spending anything over €50 quite seriously; the few times I've been in there for something scenery or paint related I've seen guys drop down €500+ on a whim on, even in my wargaming-weathered opinion, fantastically small amounts of stuff.
Go into one of these stores. Look at the larger scale wagons (even the ones without any fancy electronics, or whatever): four-figure prices. Easy. And those buggers seemingly sell pretty well.
Secondly: it's a relatively old demographic who really don't take to online shopping as much as we do, seemingly. Also, a lot in the way of conversion and detailing kits seems to be sold in those model rail stores (not sure, not my hobby - perhaps Sean who seems to know a lot about this could chime in?) which is the kind of boutique/conversionbitz stuff we'd order online as well.

So while I'm not contesting your assertion that group is smaller than we are, as a group (although I think that including the less fanatical hobbyists there are probably surprisingly many guys splurging on that stuff, if only because they can now afford the hyper-high-end-super-de-luxe versions of the toys they'd long for, but often didn't have all that much of, as kids), I would say the amount actually spent at such stores per customer is much, much higher. In fact I recall someone at a store which does predominantly rail stuff, but also some scale modeling and a little bit of RC telling me that basically that train stuff is really so much easier to actually make a living on than the few plastic models and bottles of paint he could sell to me that I'm sure there's enough cash to be made there


...I mean, just look at that article Sean posted while I was typing this up: one click onwards I found an H0 scale locomotive, seemingly quite mainstream brand: MSRP $279,95. That's a 1:100 model - H0 isn't one of the bigger scales AFAIK - , and you're going to buy a few cars to tug along behind that. Really, what we do is utterly cheap in comparison

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
looks awesome. the copper rust will be great for scenery painters methinks.

I should hope not - at least not at GW prices for paints. A trip to your local craft store will yield dozens of options which cost half as much and provide 5 times the material for the same effect - especially on things like terrain. Using GW paints in order to do terrain...well, it is a bit like just taking money out of your wallet and lighting it on fire.

Even with just using the weathering effects, I ended up using (3) 2 ounce bottles of verdigris to weather a single steam punk refinery that I did this past summer. I bought all three bottles for $5 or so. Doing the same with the GW version of that would likely cost upwards of $30. Doesn't sound like much - but if you get into building terrain, all those nickels and dimes add up really quick when you are buying plastic tube, sheet, fittings, couple metal castings, 1/4 sheet of plywood, foam...

Sean - could you please link the verdigris product that you used? (and some pics of your refinery as well, if possible?) I have the Vallejo one but don't really like it, so I tend to mix washes from paint, which is fine for individual models, but I'm open to anything that works for scenery.

 Eisenhorn wrote:

Back in the day no one used acrylics only enamels,are you cheating by using acrylic?
No your not.

And, strangely enough - back in the day (not quite as many days back though) - no one used enamels and oils, they only used acrylics. Now everyone and their brother seems to have "discovered" that enamels and oils are outstanding for doing washes, weathering and glazes (still hands down the best paints for doing flesh).

Most people seem to miss that all the various tools are effective and don't speak to the level of skill of the person using them. The important thing is the end result. It is sort of like the hand tool snobs who I bump into with one of my other hobbies who seem to think that a piece of furniture is better because it was entirely done with hand tools and they didn't use a table saw to rip the wood down or things like planers or jointers to surface it. In the end, the only way that you can tell the difference between the two when done well is that the one done only with hand tools is less perfect.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
looks awesome. the copper rust will be great for scenery painters methinks.

I should hope not - at least not at GW prices for paints. A trip to your local craft store will yield dozens of options which cost half as much and provide 5 times the material for the same effect - especially on things like terrain. Using GW paints in order to do terrain...well, it is a bit like just taking money out of your wallet and lighting it on fire.

Even with just using the weathering effects, I ended up using (3) 2 ounce bottles of verdigris to weather a single steam punk refinery that I did this past summer. I bought all three bottles for $5 or so. Doing the same with the GW version of that would likely cost upwards of $30. Doesn't sound like much - but if you get into building terrain, all those nickels and dimes add up really quick when you are buying plastic tube, sheet, fittings, couple metal castings, 1/4 sheet of plywood, foam...

I meant for like a small statue, or the roof of a building or something. I shudder to imagine the cost of painting a game-board with 4.00$ 12 ml pots of acrylic paint. *shudder*

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

What's making me chortle at your comment is that you're writing from, I believe, Germany, the Mecca of model railroading. There's a German store for everything one could ever wish for in 1:87 scale.

And every brick and mortar store I ever bought model railroad things in, doesn't exist anymore. Most boys now play computer, only a few sentimental old folks left, not enough to support a local store. Even the flagship magazine of USA, the Model Railroader, is only a shade of its former glory, less than half its page count than a few years ago.

Imagine how bad it is in other countries. In Finland, I reckon there's under 50 hobbyists left, and the number keeps dwindling as the old die off and the youngest people interested are in their 60s.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Imagine how bad it is in other countries. In Finland, I reckon there's under 50 hobbyists left, and the number keeps dwindling as the old die off and the youngest people interested are in their 60s.

I'm not sure that i should have laughed at that, but i did.

 Snrub wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Imagine how bad it is in other countries. In Finland, I reckon there's under 50 hobbyists left, and the number keeps dwindling as the old die off and the youngest people interested are in their 60s.

I'm not sure that i should have laughed at that, but i did.

There but for the grace of God goes miniatures wargaming.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Hey, some of us don't have too much time to paint and like stuff like that for the quick, acceptable result it gives. What's wrong with that?
Sure, pigment powder inferno is not some place I like to go either but really, could you be more condescending if you tried?

Agreed. How dare people do something they enjoy if they can't also be the best at it? And how dare they use techniques that have been part of the greater model-making community's repertoire for many years in order to get a good looking effect?

Don't let your head disappear up your own backside.

How dare one express a personal distaste for a particular style or technique on a wargames discussion forum?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

What's making me chortle at your comment is that you're writing from, I believe, Germany, the Mecca of model railroading. There's a German store for everything one could ever wish for in 1:87 scale.

And every brick and mortar store I ever bought model railroad things in, doesn't exist anymore. Most boys now play computer, only a few sentimental old folks left, not enough to support a local store. Even the flagship magazine of USA, the Model Railroader, is only a shade of its former glory, less than half its page count than a few years ago.

Imagine how bad it is in other countries. In Finland, I reckon there's under 50 hobbyists left, and the number keeps dwindling as the old die off and the youngest people interested are in their 60s.

It's comments like these that make me realise how lucky we appear to be in the UK with the availability of Hobby shops. Here in Plymouth we have the GW, Antics (Wargames, cardgames, model railway, military models RC cars), Giant's Lair (various wargames and massive playing area) plus several other model shops that cater for all tastes. Even Toys are Us caters for Hornby enthusiasts!

 Bull0 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Hey, some of us don't have too much time to paint and like stuff like that for the quick, acceptable result it gives. What's wrong with that?
Sure, pigment powder inferno is not some place I like to go either but really, could you be more condescending if you tried?

Agreed. How dare people do something they enjoy if they can't also be the best at it? And how dare they use techniques that have been part of the greater model-making community's repertoire for many years in order to get a good looking effect?

Don't let your head disappear up your own backside.

How dare one express a personal distaste for a particular style or technique on a wargames discussion forum?

Sorry - fail! Straw man argument, mate.

Case in point, I don't personally like NMM or Zenithal highlighting via spray cans/airbrushes but I don't piss on people who use or like them, and can still appreciate the artistry, effort and effectiveness of those who do use them. I'm happy for anyone to use whatever techniques they like. I'm not happy when people act like elitists or dicks towards or about people who dare use a method they "don't approve of" or use insulting or derogatory terms about people who might use other techniques with bs terms such as "mediocre painters".

 Azazelx wrote:
Sorry - fail! Straw man argument, mate....

It's not a straw man argument at all, though. I was just expressing that I don't personally care for those techniques much, particularly how common they seem to be at the moment, and you took issue with that. If anything, you really clearly went straw man when you put words in the mouths of people who expressed a personal distaste for the technique to the tune of:

 Azazelx wrote:
How dare people do something they enjoy if they can't also be the best at it? And how dare they use techniques that have been part of the greater model-making community's repertoire for many years in order to get a good looking effect?

Nobody said that. So, yeah. Straw man. While we're at it, you don't get to call us condescending when you throw that patronising thumbs-up thing in there. Or tell us we're "up our own backsides". Seriously! Get real.

*Edit* Unless, of course, you weren't really directing it at me. No persecution complex here, no sir...

When was his posts directed at you exactly bull0? I can't seem to figure out at what point he started "putting words in your mouth".

Not being sarcastic, was just trying to find this post your are referring to.

Well I identified with the people that were a bit negative about the use of NMM, one of my first posts in the thread was about that. But yeah, I think some other people were a bit more outwardly critical of people that use them after that, and that's probably who he's going after - ironically, I probably let those posts wash over me a bit because I don't agree with the thought process, but then when Azazelx started going after them I still felt the need to be defensive. Apologies @ me!

 lord_blackfang wrote:

What LadyCassandra said. And I wouldn't have posted at all if this had been an isolated incident but these kinds of posts come up again and again. I can't help but think that some elitist hobbyists feel threatened by the new generation being able to achieve good results in less time and claim that good paintjobs somehow "don't count" if they're not done in the traditional manner.

Laughs, I guess it's just that when someone has been perfecting their blending a long time and gotten kudos from it, the 'sudden' appearance of airbrushing makes smooth blends more mundane, and the skilled brush blender doesn't stand out anymore. But the truth is, if you are good with blending with a brush, no-one can take that away from you - you still have a skill that other people don't, and can pull off things that they can't.

I think a good artist is always looking to expand his technique toolbox, in that sense getting new tools like an airbrush are welcome things to most people. Personally, I think there is no such thing as 'cheating' when it comes to creating art - the end result is what counts, and if you can figure out an easier way to pull the result off, more kudos for you.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
GW generally has pretty solid paints, and pigments and the like aren't easy to get a hold of normally, so I'd welcome this.

You can't get Tamiya clear colours (which is what I'm assuming they're the GW equivalent of) in Canada?

Weird.

You can you just have to know where to go. There is a Tamiya distributor in Markham.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Dipping is cheating. Washing is cheating. Airbrushing is cheating. Anyone who's ever taken a peek at the Painting subsection has seen these threads coming up since at least the mid 2000s. I guess we can add weathering powders to the list now that they've become widely available. They were just fine as long as only "experts" had access to them.

Perhaps you can explain to me where this accusation of cheating is coming from? (Not a loaded question, honest request)

All I've seen is people expressing a dislike for the over use of a technique or applying excessive amounts of some sort of technical aid in order to try and mask a poor job (and, IMO, frequently make it look worse by doing so)

What LadyCassandra said. And I wouldn't have posted at all if this had been an isolated incident but these kinds of posts come up again and again. I can't help but think that some elitist hobbyists feel threatened by the new generation being able to achieve good results in less time and claim that good paintjobs somehow "don't count" if they're not done in the traditional manner.

I can attest to this.

I show people how to do "10 minute tyranids, orks and guardsmen" tricks that look better then what some people put hours into, and I usually get that "that feels wrong" or "that's too easy".

 Bull0 wrote:
Well I identified with the people that were a bit negative about the use of NMM, one of my first posts in the thread was about that. But yeah, I think some other people were a bit more outwardly critical of people that use them after that, and that's probably who he's going after - ironically, I probably let those posts wash over me a bit because I don't agree with the thought process, but then when Azazelx started going after them I still felt the need to be defensive. Apologies @ me!

My issue was entirely with this poster, his elitist attitude and the derisive language he chose to use about other people for no good reason: (see bolded)

 brassangel wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:

Ap0k wrote:

I really dislike the current fashion for all metal to either be caked in incredibly bright orange rust or green verdigris stuff. Doubtless I'll wind up getting these anyway.

I'll take that over tacky NMM any day!

Oh, yeah, that gets overused to hell too.

I agree on all counts.
A lot of that is just a below average, to mediocre painter's way of achieving a "cool" effect without actually trying to learn a technique. So they slop on Tamiya Clear, pigment powders, or wash-heavy rust colors.
I will likely try these out, since I get all GW paints for free anyway.

Essentially an attack on many, many painters and hobbyists, from a rather douchey and ignorant perspective.
Since he's been demonstrated as simply being wrong a number of times in the thread, with the discussion on the origins and use of different techniques and materials across not only our wargaming hobby, but the wider modelling/railway/art hobbies as well, it seemed odd that you chose to jump to his defence as I had no issue with your posts (expressing aesthetic opinion on techniques). But once attacked, I obviously responded in kind. As I've stated, some of the "new" techniques aren't my cup of tea either, though as I said I don't feel the need to piss on people who use, say, zenithal highlighting.

If that's an apology from you, then I accept - and we can now link arms and skip into the sunset together. If not - we can resume telling one another to go to heck.

 Bull0 wrote:
I really dislike the current fashion for all metal to either be caked in incredibly bright orange rust or green verdigris stuff. Doubtless I'll wind up getting these anyway.

huge patches of poorly done airbrushing over half the model for "OSL" is even better.

Great, I love the effects we get to use these days, if these paints improve the fun people have in the creative side of the hobby and allow them to produce a standard they can be proud of when playing the games, that's wonderful!

We all paint to different abilities and have time scales. I'm an ok painter but will never be amazing or anywhere close but I really get loads of satisfaction from setting a model down and a family member saying that's really good how did you do that?? If that's achieved by a fancy paint I really don't care!

Got my hands on the Nov WD



5 of the six paints are 'technical', one is 'dry'

In order they are:
- Nihkakh Oxides - Technical (Verigris)
- Blood for the Blood God - Technical (Blood)
- Typhus Corrosion - Technical (Used for aging metal and other surfaces with built up oil and muck)
- Ryza Rust - Dry (Rust)
- Nurgle's Rot - Technical (Pus, Acid, Poison)
- Agrelian Earth - Technical (Cracks when it dries, used to make cracked earth bases)

Oh wow! The horse beavers are on the cover!

The horse teeth are anatomically accurate, if terrifying:

My family have had horses longer than they've had me, and having grown up around them, I'm particularly sensitive to anything in an equine sculpt that is "wrong."

While horses do that, they do it to draw air over a sensitive part of their scent organ to get a "closer look" at a new, strong or interesting smell.

They do not do that when supposedly galloping flat out and carrying a rider!

They bite too, but again, it would be completely bizarre to have them doing that while at full tilt.

Edit: Fun Fact: If sufficiently experienced, one can tell the age of a horse with remarkable accuracy by their teeth!

 scarletsquig wrote:
The horse teeth are anatomically accurate, if terrifying:

You seriously don't see a difference in proportions/length of the teeth? Dark Elves seem to ride sabretooth rodents!

Knockagh wrote:
Great, I love the effects we get to use these days, if these paints improve the fun people have in the creative side of the hobby and allow them to produce a standard they can be proud of when playing the games, that's wonderful!

We all paint to different abilities and have time scales. I'm an ok painter but will never be amazing or anywhere close but I really get loads of satisfaction from setting a model down and a family member saying that's really good how did you do that?? If that's achieved by a fancy paint I really don't care!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
My family have had horses longer than they've had me, and having grown up around them, I'm particularly sensitive to anything in an equine sculpt that is "wrong."

I actually don't mind them at all. In the context of being Dark Elf steeds, so there's essentially something "wrong" with them.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Got my hands on the Nov WD


5 of the six paints are 'technical', one is 'dry'

In order they are:
- Nihkakh Oxides - Technical (Verigris)
- Blood for the Blood God - Technical (Blood)
- Typhus Corrosion - Technical (Used for aging metal and other surfaces with built up oil and muck)
- Ryza Rust - Dry (Rust)
- Nurgle's Rot - Technical (Pus, Acid, Poison)
- Agrelian Earth - Technical (Cracks when it dries, used to make cracked earth bases)

hey, that sounds pretty awesome!

 Azazelx wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
My family have had horses longer than they've had me, and having grown up around them, I'm particularly sensitive to anything in an equine sculpt that is "wrong."

I actually don't mind them at all. In the context of being Dark Elf steeds, so there's essentially something "wrong" with them.

I wouldn't object to flat out "wrong" these are too close to real, so to my eye they look....incorrect?

But enough with the horse beavers, if anyone is keen to continue the discussion, I'll meet you over in the DE thread.