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Minor spoilers for a Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns below.

Having read both books (though it was some time ago), I'm struck by how differently both books portray Russ. Thousand Sons introduces the character on the planet Shrike, and for those of you who recall he was trying to burn a noncompliant planet's master library to the ground, while the Thousand Sons blocked his entry to preserve the information inside. Here, to me, he came across as a belligerent, book-burning idiot. The sense we get from him in the remainder of the book is a dog straining at the leash to kill his own brother, hating him for essentially what he was even before Magnus's disobedience.

Later we see a different Russ in Prospero Burns. He strikes me as a sorrowful executioner, who does what he's told without taking any joy in it. He actually seems to try and convince Magnus to surrender in order to stop a massacre of both forces.

Allowing for the fact that the two books were written by different authors and told from different legion perspectives, what are your thoughts? Personally, I have strong feelings against Russ, but then I'm biased towards most of the traitors anyway. The scene on Shrike sticks with me, since that level of wanton cultural destruction seems idiotic to me, at least for a figure portrayed as the hero.

Russ never enjoyed what his brother was skilled at which was being a Psyker. Yes he could be a brute at times but that came from his home and the way he lived. if you were to look past that there are great tales of Russ being the grand hero that gave way to how all Space Wolves are. He was loyal to those whom fought beside him, willing to come to their aid which is how all his sons were and kept to. Even though he didn't approve of what his brother did and followed that didn't mean he fully hated him...Because even all that...Magnus was still his brother just like The Lion. Russ is both a brute and a hero if you ask me.

Brute, he got played just as bad as Magnus due to that fact.

That's my take on it from reading the 2 books.

Space Wolves are my primary army, so no bias against him here.

Neither.

He's far too intelligent to be a brute. Angron is a brute.

He's closed minded and....I can't think of the word to describe "so sure of his beliefs that he's unwilling to yield under any circumstances".

Vulgar wrote:
Neither.

He's far too intelligent to be a brute. Angron is a brute.

He's closed minded and....I can't think of the word to describe "so sure of his beliefs that he's unwilling to yield under any circumstances".

Actually, angron was pretty damn intelligent. Practically a genius of war, it's just that he ended up with implants in his brain that made him a rage-fueled monster most of the time. And then Khorne...

 Selym wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
Neither.

He's far too intelligent to be a brute. Angron is a brute.

He's closed minded and....I can't think of the word to describe "so sure of his beliefs that he's unwilling to yield under any circumstances".

Actually, angron was pretty damn intelligent. Practically a genius of war, it's just that he ended up with implants in his brain that made him a rage-fueled monster most of the time. And then Khorne...

Angron was unbridled carnage in a leather bag. His strength as a military leader was in his ability to make war at such a brutal level that it was almost unnerving to watch. Though, in spite of this, he lacked the hunter prowess of Russ. Russ was a far more cunning leader. I'd stand behind Angron on the battlefield, but I'd want Russ leading the war.

Russ was a scalpel whereas Angron was a cleaver.

I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

However, as for being brutish I don't see it. The space wolves employ the strongest form of Shock and Awe tactics. Once set on a course, they execute in the most effective manner possible. That means you hit devastatingly hard, with no mercy. You make the enemy afraid to oppose you because of what you might do. Then once your objective is cleared, you pull out immediately and don't linger.

Thats not being brutish, its actually pretty humain as the local population can get back to their lives with the most minimal of disruptions.

I think this is why the Sons of Russ come across as barbaric. They bring fear into battle, hopefully subduing the will of the enemy before they even get there.

Well that tank fights monsters and doesn't afraid of anything. The man was too busy fighting chaos in the warp to be a ponce.

the primach? he is a brute that has moments of heriocness.

Russ is a dog. He does what he's told and then sits down. That's pretty much the end of it. Questioning the morality of his actions is like asking if an earthquake is good or evil.

Leman Russ is a tool in the most literal sense of the word. The least individualistic of the Primarchs, despite his Legion's reputation.

He seems to be painted as pretty delusional of late. Confronts Angron to try teaching him a lesson, and it's safe to say that that was a spectacular failure that just produced some corpses. Let his psyker-phobia be used to further the agenda of Chaos. No matter how you paint the use of Rune Priests, doesn't end well - either he actually believed they were completely different from other psykers, which is ignorant, or he knew thwy were the same, and legitimately believed he knew better.

Still quite like him though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Leman Russ is a tool in the most literal sense of the word. The least individualistic of the Primarchs, despite his Legion's reputation.

I'd argue Dorn is far worse on both accounts.

 Jayden63 wrote:

However, as for being brutish I don't see it. The space wolves employ the strongest form of Shock and Awe tactics. Once set on a course, they execute in the most effective manner possible. That means you hit devastatingly hard, with no mercy. You make the enemy afraid to oppose you because of what you might do. Then once your objective is cleared, you pull out immediately and don't linger.

This +1

I always saw Rune priests as natural psykers that used the power of the warp and The Thousand Sons as sorcerers who used the warp to gain power.
The son's took what they wanted, the wolves used what was there.
At least, thats the way I've always differentiated the two.

I see Russ as a hero, but I see all the loyalist primarchs that way.

 Algorithm wrote:
Minor spoilers for a Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns below.

Having read both books (though it was some time ago), I'm struck by how differently both books portray Russ. Thousand Sons introduces the character on the planet Shrike, and for those of you who recall he was trying to burn a noncompliant planet's master library to the ground, while the Thousand Sons blocked his entry to preserve the information inside. Here, to me, he came across as a belligerent, book-burning idiot. The sense we get from him in the remainder of the book is a dog straining at the leash to kill his own brother, hating him for essentially what he was even before Magnus's disobedience.

Later we see a different Russ in Prospero Burns. He strikes me as a sorrowful executioner, who does what he's told without taking any joy in it. He actually seems to try and convince Magnus to surrender in order to stop a massacre of both forces.

Allowing for the fact that the two books were written by different authors and told from different legion perspectives, what are your thoughts? Personally, I have strong feelings against Russ, but then I'm biased towards most of the traitors anyway. The scene on Shrike sticks with me, since that level of wanton cultural destruction seems idiotic to me, at least for a figure portrayed as the hero.

It is perhaps not to dissimilar from 'heros' out of our past. Hercules is a Greek hero, but he has loads of faults. Theseus forgets to fly the right flag because he's to busy partying and causes death because of it. Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero). Alexander the Great burned cities whole sale, the Saxons were a bunch of butchering heathens who were binge drinkers and keen on slavery (but modern England likes to lionize them, somehow forgetting they demonize them when talking about 'king arthur'), Ragnar Lodbrok/Ivar the Boneless/countless other Viking heros sailed around the world, explored new lands, fought epic battles, and raped/pillaged/burnt/desicrated their way across Europe.

Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.

So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero).

+1 to Lancelot being a dick. He ruined the Knights of the Round Table. I hate that hunchback.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

It is perhaps not to dissimilar from 'heros' out of our past. Hercules is a Greek hero, but he has loads of faults. Theseus forgets to fly the right flag because he's to busy partying and causes death because of it. Lancelot is force fed down our throats as a hero, but he constantly fails to support his liege, sleeps with said liege and best friend's wife, and then cold bloodedly murders many of his best friends (personally I view him as a villain, but generally he's touted as a hero). Alexander the Great burned cities whole sale, the Saxons were a bunch of butchering heathens who were binge drinkers and keen on slavery (but modern England likes to lionize them, somehow forgetting they demonize them when talking about 'king arthur'), Ragnar Lodbrok/Ivar the Boneless/countless other Viking heros sailed around the world, explored new lands, fought epic battles, and raped/pillaged/burnt/desicrated their way across Europe.

Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.

So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.

This is actually a great point I hadn't considered. He does bear many similarities to heroes of folklore and history, though I'm sure that's no accident. His one overbearingly good quality would have to be loyalty, as other have stated.

No matter how you paint the use of Rune Priests, doesn't end well - either he actually believed they were completely different from other psykers, which is ignorant, or he knew thwy were the same, and legitimately believed he knew better.

Serious willful ignorance, if you ask me.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:


Men are...men. Great men, even heros, do terrible things.

So, he is quite possibly both without preventing him from being either.

The perspective of whether someone is a hero also changes depending on who's side you're on. Take Skyrim, for example. Many thousands of players believe that Ulfric Stormcloak is the good guy, and choose to be a stormcloak. I however, see him and his people as ingnorant racists who spend too much time practically worshiping their "ancestors". And I follow the Imperials.
(Admittedly, it helps that most of the Imperials seem to have British accents, but still).

Barbarian, pure and simple.

That's the whole basis for Space Wolves. It's their cold norse viking/barbarian attitude that makes them so lethal. But at the same time their values are all about brotherhood, loyalty and honour.

Leman Russ is a hero - if you're on his right side!

Great hero but also a hypocritical close minded brute.

He knows damn well what Rune Priests really are but is to stubborn to admit it.

Angron tore him a new arsehole both verbally and physically.

Russ barely won the verbal argument with Angron.

But he is also a great hero of the imperium.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.

I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs

 Cold wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.

I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs

Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)

Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.

As an aside, I don't think "trained wolves" fits, mainly because training wolves in real life generally doesn't work as far as I know. You might get limited success but most of the time it ends badly.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Cold wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.

I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs

Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)

Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.

Ironic indeed... What books or materials are there that depict Russ as blindly obedient? I've never had too much of an interest before this thread and would like to read up on it.

Vulgar wrote:

I'd argue Dorn is far worse on both accounts.

Dorn stands apart from his brother's as the most fundamentally psychotic and the least human.

He is far more individual though. After all, Leman Russ wasn't the one who threatened to destroy the Imperium post-heresy if Guilliman didn't let him get his way.

Both? Regarding the divide between Rune Priests and the original Librarium, Rune Priests follow a very rigid and unwavering teaching protocol that combined with their umpteen wards lets them draw on the warp in limited ways without drawing too much attention. I'm sure they get that they are using the Warp, but seeing as the whole caste is based on a purely oral tradition, a lot of the details are obscured in myth, legend and flowery language. Russ didn't seem to have much comprehension about the Warp, other than it raised his hackles and was thus not to be trusted, so he likely just went along with whatever his Rune Priests told him.

I think the best way to visualize the divide between the various psychic schools is in the Brotherhood of the Storm book. In there, a Storm Priest sees a vision of a golden chalice filled with liquid, four dark figures urging him to drink from it, and a golden man urging him to not drink from it. The chalice represents Warp knowledge, so the Chaos Powers want you to glut yourself on it, and the Emperor wants you to turn away from it completely. Being every bit a man of Chogoris, the Storm Priest took a polite sip, said his thanks, and set the chalice down, both infuriating the four figures and disappointing the golden man.

I would imagine a student of Magnus in the same situation would drink every drop, while a Rune Priest would kick the chalice over.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Cold wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.

I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs

Ironically/interestingly, Russ's Legion and the chapter that would be its legacy are VERY different, to the point of being polar opposites. The Space Wolves chapter are known for defying authority, but Russ and his legion meanwhile were so loyal that the Emperor entrusted him to be his executioner of other primarchs. Angron put it best when he said that the wolves were more like dogs (obedient to a higher up) than wolves (fiercely independent, like the space wolves of today are)

Likewise, the Space Wolf Legion was known for its brutality and mercilessness to the point where Imperial Army commanders were scared gak-less of them (though they were loyal to the Emperor, they still did things like drop entire space stations on planets and burn libraries and not care about collateral damage and everything). The Space Wolf chapter, meanwhile, is almost always portrayed in a kind older-brother fashion that cares about Imperial guardsmen and civilians (not just armegeddon, but the novels and a graphic novel series too shows they clearly care about the little guy a lot), and I don't recall any library burning or space-station dropping that they've done.

As an aside, I don't think "trained wolves" fits, mainly because training wolves in real life generally doesn't work as far as I know. You might get limited success but most of the time it ends badly.

Yup, yup. 30K wolves and 40K wolves are very different. 30K it was all about the Emperor and the HH. Who did what, when, and how. The biggest difference being that Big E was still alive and calling the shots. 40K wolves follow in the tradition of Russ and as such are loyal to the idea of the Emperor and what he stood for. They have no interest in obeying the bureaucracy that infests the current ruling of the Imperium. Their order of Loyalty is to the Teaching of Russ, the Teaching of the Emperor, and the well being of the Imperium. Its just that the current corrupted rulers of the Imperium doesn't like the first two.

I think its the following of Grimnar (one of the Imperiums most loved heros) and his council of advisers that have greatly influenced/changed how the SW work in 40K and how they now are. They have taken the stories of Russ, learned from them (Bjorn was there and saw first hand), and have adapted so that his character faults no longer define the Chapter. The Legend lives on, bigger than it probably was, but who is to say that is a bad thing. Especially in a time where Heros are needed.

Brute and a Hero...I agree with god king, he very well knows what are RP but plays the dumb barabarian card too much often....Also in Scars book he is quite humbled

 Cold wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I see it in a different light.

Russ is a Hero. There are way too many stories that depict him otherwise. He is loyal without question to the emperor and humanity. However, being a hero doesn't mean you don't have flaws. His blind obedience is one of them. Russ follows the chain of command, without question. When the higher up say bark, he barks as long as it came from someone above him. He doesn't question why he has to bark. That is a flaw.

I thought Russ and his legion were always more anti-authority (not to the point of anarchy). Kind of goes in hand in hand with the Viking/wolf pack culture of his legion. His legion is certainly that way, in book Emperor's Gift, the Son's of Russ basically flat out rebel against Inquisition (for a good reason). As far as him following the order Horus gave him regarding Magnus, I always saw that as Horus being more clever than Russ being blindly obedient.

I see him and his legion more like trained Wolves (can take commands but are still wild animals) and not so much dogs

I somewhat disagree with the comments about then-and-now being so different. Russ and his wolves were loyal to the Emperor, not his rules. They are loyal to a person, not to either a faceless bureaucracy or a set of rules laid down in a book.

I would also say that Russ was brutal, but not a brute. He is not so 1-dimensional as to be called a brute. A brutal hero, perhaps.

I actually think he is insanely clever. I hate space wolves A LOT but Ahriman speculates that he thinks Russ encourages the brutal perceptions of him and is trying to fit in with Fenris and be a wolfman. I think he uses his reputation as a weapon against his opponents. Shame he sucks really and allowed Horus to so easily manipulate him.

BaconUprising wrote:
I actually think he is insanely clever. I hate space wolves A LOT but Ahriman speculates that he thinks Russ encourages the brutal perceptions of him and is trying to fit in with Fenris and be a wolfman. I think he uses his reputation as a weapon against his opponents. Shame he sucks really and allowed Horus to so easily manipulate him.

He is clever but not that clever. Angron verbally tore him a new ass before ironically Russ was the first to draw his blade on the night of the wolf.