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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 15:26:28
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
You mean like everything the Emporer did and said about Chaos? Aka, nothing to his sons?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 15:52:18
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
The Runepriests and Russ are dishonest hypocrites in claiming that their powers are special and come from Fenris. They KNOW what they are but do not dare admit it because that would mean that they would have to reevaluate their opinions.
In contrast the White Scars Stormseers the other tribal shaman psyker caste know what they are and do not deceive themselves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 16:01:29
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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Can you show me where they claim there powers come from Fenris? First time hearing of this.
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I have no idea what I'm doing...
Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 16:04:20
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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Read ' A Thousand Sons ', it's a fairly major plot point, and it shows Russ as a bit of a dickbag. Then again, it is in the 1ksons perspective...Then on the other hand, even prospero burns makes him seem somewhat harsh.
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Bad luck?! Schmad luck!
Kain wrote:
WMG: The last ever story of 40k will finally hit M42; only to reveal that Trazyn has completed his greatest heist; stuffing the entire universe into a hyper-pocket.
Thus ending the true and grandest conflict of 40k.
The contest of thievery between the Blood Ravens and Trazyn. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 16:37:38
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Russ claims it in a thousand sons and his flunky Othere Wyrdmake the most dishonest hypocrite of the entire series repeats it on Prospero.
It is also expanded upon by the white scar storm seer Yesugei in the novel Scars.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/26 16:39:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 17:02:00
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Manchu wrote:A. The fact at issue requires no harder nor plainer a line than the decree at Nikaea.
You must be real fun at parties. Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
If Magnus is a heretic for ignoring the decree (note that he received his vision during the "trial", and immediately left to investigate further) because he found out something that would literally tear the Imperium in half, then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him, Rogal Dorn for going a step further and imprisoning all his psykers, Lion El Johnson for deciding it was stupid and killing the chaplain monitoring for it, Sanguinius for forgiving its use in necessity, the Sigilite for setting up a secret cabal of psykers behind the Emperor's back, and Guilliman for outright overruling the Emperor and repealing it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/26 17:03:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 19:52:15
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Wondering Why the Emperor Left
Canada
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After the Emperor was basically dead and not in a position to repeal The Edict.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/26 19:52:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/26 23:02:16
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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godking wrote:Russ claims it in a thousand sons and his flunky Othere Wyrdmake the most dishonest hypocrite of the entire series repeats it on Prospero.
It is also expanded upon by the white scar storm seer Yesugei in the novel Scars.
fact is not only is he a hipocrite about psykers, but Russ is a hipocrite about EVERYTHING, the guy's running around conuqering planets to bring them into an empire whose public purpose is to get rid of superstition and the like, but the space wolves are REDICULASLY superstitious.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 00:01:04
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I thought what happened was that, upon seeing the demons and realizing the council of Nikaea effectively removed one of the best weapons they could have used against them, Gulliman said to himself that, as soon as he got the chance, he would appeal to the Emperor to repeal the edict. Roboute didn't repeal the edict, himself.
Well, unless he ACTUALLY repealed it in Unremembered Empire? If so... sheesh, the HH series keeps on coming up with more and more retcons and junk in an attempt to drag the thing on  Although even in that case you could arguably justify it with him not being sure if the Emperor is alive or not (in which case, SOMEONE has to be heir and take charge, and it obviously isn't going to be Horus, what with him being traitor and everything)
Regardless, as pointed out by others, tons of the primarchs did lots of stuff behind the Emperor's back. But really, this should be expected considering that many of them were thousands of light years away from him. There's a reason why the current Imperium as a whole gives a surprising amount of leeway regarding lots of things.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/27 00:01:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 01:02:10
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
So what you are saying is that Russ took into account the necessity of psykers to defend against the Warp and supplied his Legion the means to do so, but actively tried to disallow other Legions this same boon?
If so, Russ is still a hypocrite, he's just a very self-aware and very sinister one. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, now that I am reading Betrayer, I have to back up what some others have been saying.
Angron verbally crushed Leman Russ' arguments into tiny pieces and took a gak on them.
That said, the entire moment was so surreal that it IMO felt wildly out of character for Leman Russ.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/27 01:04:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 05:49:58
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Dangerous Skeleton Champion
California
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Inky wrote:That furry may have had something to do with their wolf fetish.
On a non pedantic note, It's kinda obvious in fluff and crunch sense that Eaters are the angry legion, Wolves don't throw super human berserkers at everything and anything in pure hate.
World Eaters do.
And "with equal fury" is one of those statement so commonly used by the fluff writers, so I wouldn't think you could use it to overturn set in stone lore.
Hold a poll, "who's the more ferocious/Angry legion?" And I'm fairly certain the Nommers will come out top. Their Primarch's name is Angron for crying out loud! (not the most imaginative name, but still)
It even said in the old codex (not sure which ed) that "sons of russ don't fight with blind ferocity that you may see in a rabid dog, but with the cunning and(some adjective I've forgot) of a pack of wolves" Or something to that effect.
The important thing to note is that Armageddon was the 40K heros of the people SWs. Not the 30K monster that the Imperial Army think twice about even having as allies. Also Armageddon was the World Eaters who survived the HH and swore themselves to Khorne. Not the World Eaters that just had the butcher's nails.
So to recap Armageddon was the was the most vicious of the World Eaters vs tamer SWs. Who fought each other with equal furry.
2nd ed SW codex page 5 wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the Primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies.
I don't blame BL writer for stepping on Russ' toes a little with Angron. And further with their legions. Take that away and the World Eaters are just a trash legion.
Russ says it best in Betrayer:
Russ to Angron in Betrayer wrote:‘If you cannot see the chasm between savagery and ferocity, then you are hopelessly gone, Angron.’
I would hands down give the World Eaters the "Most savage" title. Because they don't kill cleanly, they butcher. Which has also been used to show how much they suffer against enemies they can't just butcher.
Void__Dragon wrote:
That said, the entire moment was so surreal that it IMO felt wildly out of character for Leman Russ.
Which is why so many SW fans have a problem with the Night of the Wolf. Russ not acting like himself going into a fight that he has to lose to teach his leson. I would have greatly prefered to have a better representation of Russ and Angron winning soundly. With no chance Russ held back.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/27 05:55:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 08:12:10
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Ferocious Blood Claw
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From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
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I have no idea what I'm doing...
Raginmund, Jarl of Sepp |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 08:14:31
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Leman Russ is well-aware of what his Legion is up to.
He's just a hypocrite, lol.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 08:31:51
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
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Oooh, good point, I think savagery and butchery would be more the Hounds style.
But you know what I mean, the World Eaters are hands down the more.... enthusiastic legion.
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Bad luck?! Schmad luck!
Kain wrote:
WMG: The last ever story of 40k will finally hit M42; only to reveal that Trazyn has completed his greatest heist; stuffing the entire universe into a hyper-pocket.
Thus ending the true and grandest conflict of 40k.
The contest of thievery between the Blood Ravens and Trazyn. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 15:14:07
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BrianDavion wrote:godking wrote:Russ claims it in a thousand sons and his flunky Othere Wyrdmake the most dishonest hypocrite of the entire series repeats it on Prospero.
It is also expanded upon by the white scar storm seer Yesugei in the novel Scars.
fact is not only is he a hipocrite about psykers, but Russ is a hipocrite about EVERYTHING, the guy's running around conuqering planets to bring them into an empire whose public purpose is to get rid of superstition and the like, but the space wolves are REDICULASLY superstitious.
Good point Automatically Appended Next Post: VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
Russ KNOWS he can't admit it because if he did he would have to admit that Magnus was right about some things.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/27 15:16:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 17:54:07
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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godking wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:From what you guys are saying, sounds like the Rune Priests are ignorant of where they get there powers OR they are simply lying to Russ. I haven't read enough HH to be in this discussion it seems.
I'll still be waiting for Russ in the wolftime.
Russ KNOWS he can't admit it because if he did he would have to admit that Magnus was right about some things.
And being the proud/obstreperous wolf-man that he is, he'd never admit that he was wrong, even if it costs the whole of humanity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 18:26:02
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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There is also that whole basement full of mutants issue. Anyway, Unremembered Empire offered some additional insight on Russ' motivation and this whole executioners business (and remember, this is Abnett, who introduced the concept). One of the themes of the Horus Heresy is what the Primarchs were planning for their Legions after the Crusade was over and there were no enemies to fight. Some railed against the idea of no more war and being just another political functionary (Horus), some had a hopeless or nihilistic views (Angron, Konrad), and some, like Guilliman, were moulding their Legions to be the leaders and administrators of tomorrow.
So what is left for the Legion of fur-clad barbarians who make their own allies uneasy? Guilliman muses that Russ is far smarter than he lets on, so he took this role as the Emperor's sanction, as the one whole does the "unthinkable" (i.e. kills allies who prove "problematic" to the Empire). So Russ's plan for his Legion for when there were no enemies left to kill was to start finding reasons to kill allies. He's the original overzealous inquisitor.
It was also funny to hear Guilliman and the Lion talk about Russ like he's the biggest douche in the universe. "Man I wish more of our brothers were here, even that donkey-cave Russ." Or "You are a stubborn son-of-bitch bastard! But not as much as Russ." Hilarious.
No, this was well before the Siege of Terra.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/27 18:43:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 19:03:22
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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But the Lion is a cold-hearted sociopath.
Russ is not so sinister.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 19:16:13
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions
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The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
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amanita wrote:So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote:No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 20:47:15
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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The Last Chancer Who Survived
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Redcruisair wrote:The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
Maybe he, like most of the primarchs, is mentally unstable...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/27 21:26:38
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Ghastly Grave Guard
Uk
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Selym wrote: Redcruisair wrote:The Lion is a weird one. He gleefully decapitates one of his own men when the latter disagree with him, yet he gets all weak-kneed when it’s time to deal the finishing blow to his chaos corrupted mentor, who by the way, just recently openly revolted against him and the Emperor? What gives man?
Maybe he, like most of the primarchs, is mentally unstable...
*all of the Primarchs
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 03:28:09
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Unremembered Empire portrays him as a mysterious badass who all the other Primarchs, including Horus, fangasmed about. He was also extremely reasonable and utterly loyal to Imperial ideals.
I think when it comes to the Lion, we just need to pretend Fallen Angels never happened, because it was a terrible book (the parts on the forge world were literally unreadable (I had to skim through those chapters), so BL killing that whole Nemiel (or whatever) side-story by having the Lion punch his head off was a good thing in my opinion. Everywhere else the Lion is portrayed as very logical, and no more sociopath than his brothers. I'm actually growing to quite like him.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 05:59:37
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne
Noctis Labyrinthus
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Omegus wrote:
Unremembered Empire portrays him as a mysterious badass who all the other Primarchs, including Horus, fangasmed about. He was also extremely reasonable and utterly loyal to Imperial ideals.
I think when it comes to the Lion, we just need to pretend Fallen Angels never happened, because it was a terrible book (the parts on the forge world were literally unreadable (I had to skim through those chapters), so BL killing that whole Nemiel (or whatever) side-story by having the Lion punch his head off was a good thing in my opinion. Everywhere else the Lion is portrayed as very logical, and no more sociopath than his brothers. I'm actually growing to quite like him.
Him being a cold-hearted sociopath is literally the only aspect about the Lion that was interesting or kind of unique to him compared to his loyalist brothers (And with Perturabo's portrayal in Angel Exterminatus, maybe even counting the traitors). It was also present in The Lion, and in Savage Weapons to a lesser extent.
"Extremely reasonable and loyal to Imperial ideals who other Primarchs fangasm about" describes both Guilliman and Sanguinius.
I foresee Unremembered Empire being thrown in the pile of Dan Abnett books I wipe my ass with, along with Legion and sort of Know No Fear. I frankly had this impression the moment I really learned anything about the book, since, more than almost any other, it seemed like stupid padding, entirely unnecessary. Now my fears are even greater.
A character does not need to be personally "likeable" to be "likeable", and the Lion epitomized this concept. Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels weren't great books (Particularly the latter, as you've noted), but the Lion's portrayal was definitely one of their finer points.
I mean really, Horus fangasming over the guy he insults several times in either Horus Rising (I hope not Horus Rising, because that would make Abnett an inconsistent idiot) or False Gods? The guy he considers a mad jelly loser who covets the title of Warmaster for himself?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/28 06:04:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 10:04:45
Subject: Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Guilliman said that Horus was mad jelly over the Lion being the "enigmatic Lord of the First" and his biggest point of pride about being named Warmaster was that he won over the Lion (implying Horus didn't care about winning over Guilliman or Dorn). Given the mountain of insecurities Horus was buried under, that smack talk could have just been those insecurities talking. Sure Horus said he'd have voted for Sanguinius, but the angelic guy seems the easy cop-out choice (that Guilliman and the Lion both also make).
Anyway, the most fun Primarch in the book is Konrad. He's just so deliciously loony, and wreaks utter devastation evereywhere he goes. People say he's the Batman, but this dude is all Joker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 15:42:37
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Omegus wrote:Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
That is some epic hypocrisy right there. Omegus wrote:then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
We have the exact wording of the decree. We know for a fact that it did not apply to the Space Wolves. But don't let facts get in the way of your bluster.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 16:35:44
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Wing Commander
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ZebioLizard2 wrote: VeteranSgt.Ryokai wrote:For everyone saying that the SW having Rune Priests is hypocrisy, you would have to be pretty stupid to have knowledge of the warp and then have no defense against it.
Russ was a great Primarch, a simple man that followed the Allfathers orders because he gave his word he would do so and he is a man of his word.
You mean like everything the Emporer did and said about Chaos? Aka, nothing to his sons?
That isn't entirely true. In the first book Horus and Loken talk about the immeterium and it's ability to warp people and physics. Abaddon also mentions it when talking about the interex, the hate/repudiation of warp spawned trickery.
The Imperium's belief wasn't that there couldn't be a malign influence, rather that it was simply another form of science that they didn't fully understand.
From a certain point of view that isn't wrong. Demons/gods can still be argued as simplistic terms for something we don't understand. There are funguses on Earth that enslave ants to do their bidding, creating sort of 'zombie ants'. Underestimated, sure, but left them hopelessly clueless, no.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 18:13:26
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
Pacific NW
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This thread is most enlightening. There is much proof that people often take what they want from stories rather than what is said. Some people even persist in their version of things when the author of the story tells them the opposite was true, as evident by many people ignoring DarthMarko's signature. Facts, even those of a fiction, get twisted to suit our own concept of reality. Fun times. Anyways, the small piece I wanted to comment on: People seem to be taking the words of a character who was deliberately trying to be insulting about an enemy as an unbiased description of said enemy because they also don't like that other character. Fun fact: "Individualistic" is not actually a synonym for "independent". Russ is not a dog. He is also not the Alpha wolf as it were. He's not even the Beta wolf. Those roles would be the Emperor and Horus respectfully, before the Horus Heresy broke out. And yes, I realize that those are outdated ideas when it comes to the social structure of a wolf pack. Now. They were widely accepted fact when the back story for Leman Russ was created and the entire concept of "Space Wolves" was made. The way Russ acts, though it lived only in an outline until the Black Library started pumping out books, was inspired in part by that outdated info. Part of that outdated info means that any wolf that wasn't the Alpha wolf would defer to the Alpha wolf and be wholly submissive to the Alpha/Beta wolves. So that's a large part of where Russ' loyalty comes from. The Emperor is the Alpha wolf of the pack that is the Imperium. Submission to his will is the only option.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 19:21:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 18:36:06
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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This thread is most enlightening. There is much proof that people often take what they want from stories rather than what is said. Some people even persist in their version of things when the author of the story tells them the opposite was true, as evident by many people ignoring [user]DarthMarko[user]'s signature. Facts, even those of a fiction, get twisted to suit our own concept of reality.
If one does not convey it well enough within the story's text that it can be easily seen as the other way. It's hard to take the authors side, you can have heroes seem to be villains, villains that do nothing but be assaulted by brutes when the tale is supposed to be a heroic telling of one mans rise against an evil emperor.
It's all how one tells the story, if they don't tell it right, people will take another meaning from it, and that meaning wasn't shown very well in that story of Angron vs Russ. Heck I thought it was supporting Angron as well!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/28 18:36:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 19:19:01
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Codex: Space Wolves, 2nd Edition clearly states this as well.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/10/28 20:22:35
Subject: Re:Leman Russ: Brute or Hero?
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
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Manchu wrote: Omegus wrote:Not surprising for the most obtuse person on the internet (no hyperbole!).
That is some epic hypocrisy right there. Omegus wrote:then you must condemn Leman Russ for pretending it doesn't apply to him
We have the exact wording of the decree. We know for a fact that it did not apply to the Space Wolves. But don't let facts get in the way of your bluster.
Even if you give the Space Wolves the "our psykers are not psykers" excuse and go with the verbatim command to disband the Librarium, practically every other loyalist Primarch violated the edict for some reason or another. So to condemn the Primarch with the best reason to do so as traitor is asinine. What's this about epic hypocrisy and bluster, again? Catchyour reflection in the mirror? I hope that dunce cap fits well, you wear it ohnso often.
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