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 RiTides wrote:
I'm willing to give them the faintest possible chance now, and had no intention of doing so before.

Why give them a chance at this point?

 Kroothawk wrote:
So when is the next kickstarter for this power armour model coming, now that all kickstarter money was used to pay old bills?

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
But it is entirely legal (under UK law, and I don't think US differs wildly in this regard) to form a new company, with a subtly different name, and then proceed to sell all your assets to them, while leaving the debts with the old company.

Yeah, see the Maelstrom and Mierce case.

Not exactly the same, no.

Mierce took the Banelegions stuff, but are a completely different company operating in a different way. If Rob had set up Maelstrom Games (Nottingham) Ltd, and had then purchased the assets of Maelstrom Games Ltd and continued to trade with the same website URL and still as an online wargaming discount retailer, that would be a Phoenix Administration and closer to what I mean.

Yeah, I get it. Completely different Rob Lane. Completely different corner of the same building. Completely different label on the same Banelegions kits, completely diffferent name on the same email-newsletter, so nothing in common at all

But it is rumoured that Rob Lane made Rob Lane a good price because they know each other from school

No, you clearly don't get it, or do, but the facts would prevent writing that reply.

The same people involved is a non-issue, the same building is a non-issue. The fact that you cannot log in to maelstromgames.co.uk and buy a box of Space Marines is the important thing that differentiates the two situations.

While Phoenix Administrations are legal, undervaluing your assets for the transfer is not, so whatever you wish to imply, Mierce will have paid (in theory at least) a fair market price for anything they took off Maelstrom.

But this is decidedly OT and not in the least related to the point I wished to make, so I think that'll do on this point.

kenofyork wrote:
I got a check today for the products I sent to Defiance. I want to make sure to report the facts as far as I know. Take it for what it is worth and let's not try to read things in to it, but someone at the company has settled up with me. Defiance has gotten some bad press because of the non-payment to me. They have corrected the issue and I wanted to let it be known that all accounts are paid up.

 rustforge wrote:
Defiance has also paid us in full as well. We have been withholding comment, per our attorneys advice, until Ken had been paid as well. Ken advised me earlier today that he had been paid and I was waiting for him to say something before I posted.

Just quoting these two posts over so we can discuss the relevant info.

Jake, I am just giving them credit for finally paying their debt. That is a positive thing, and means there is a glimmer of hope for them for the future if they continue to make good on their obligations (such as to the Kickstarter backers now).

That's great news for those involved.

Assuming the cheques clear of course.

While it is tempting to look at this as a positive, the cynic in me sees this as damage limitation. If the motivation had been genuine, the general vibe coming from DG would have been more conciliatory ("we're really sorry, everything's been left in a mess, give us a few weeks to sort things out") and less evasive ("well, that wasn't me, so this isn't my problem")

As it stands, I think they have tried and failed to pull a fast one, and are now trying to dig themselves out of a hole.

It certainly won't mean they'll ever have me as a customer.

Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.

 Eilif wrote:
Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.

Tony is very good at making small steps, and well timed ones, in the right direction in order to lure in suckers. He then JUMPS back onto his known pattern of behavior. Repeat as needed. How many folks 'acknowledged the step in the right direction' at the start of the KS? Or when they show new product (without delivering)?


There is nothing praise worthy or good in Defiance. They did what they needed to to avoid a legal problem and to give that visible 'step in the right direction' before they again screw somebody.

 CptJake wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Very glad to hear that Ken and Rustforge have been compensated. It's not enough to make me regret skipping the kickstarter, but it should be acknowledged as a small step in the right direction. Now it's just a wait-and-see how the KS delivers.

Tony is very good at making small steps, and well timed ones, in the right direction in order to lure in suckers. He then JUMPS back onto his known pattern of behavior. Repeat as needed. How many folks 'acknowledged the step in the right direction' at the start of the KS? Or when they show new product (without delivering)?


There is nothing praise worthy or good in Defiance. They did what they needed to to avoid a legal problem and to give that visible 'step in the right direction' before they again screw somebody.

Exactly, this smacks of nothing more but misdirection and manipulation. I'm just glad that the side effect of them trying to save their skin is that some people received the money they were owed.

It would definitely be nice to hear from Ken or others that the money has actually cleared and funds have landed in their bank, otherwise there is still a chance that this could just be an empty gesture.

(Am I correct in thinking that writing bad cheques has greater consequences in the US than UK though? Here you get charged by the bank for their time and the payee is out of pocket unless they have alternate means to pursue you, hence cheques are almost extinct as a payment method)

You guys can take it however you want. Time will tell whether this is misdirection or a change in behavior, but I'm going to withold judgement (about their motives for making right with Proxie and rustforge) until I see how the KS turns out.

Note that I'm not advocating folks start giving them $ now, but if they've made good with proxie and rusty, then that's enough that I'd be willing to buy a set of battle eggs post-KS if reviews are positive.

Basically I've moved from never buying a DG product (which I publicly said I wouldn't do unless they made right with Ken), to being willing to buy one IF they can deliver a good product.

Either way I am not willing to give someone to much credit for not stealing. Its kind of the minimum we should expect.

 carlos13th wrote:
Either way I am not willing to give someone to much credit for not stealing. Its kind of the minimum we should expect.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:


Basically I've moved from never buying a DG product (which I publicly said I wouldn't do unless they made right with Ken), to being willing to buy one IF they can deliver a good product.

I have too little money and too many honest companies I like to go that route. But to each their own.

It makes sense to be cautious at this point. If you want their products, purchase them from another source. I have seen several stores that carry them.

Always nice to see somebody decide to do the right thing only after lawyers get involved.

I'm sure it was a hard choice between pay what we owe, or get sued in court for what we owe plus a mountain of legal fees.


Also I'm curious to know why there's a distintcion between "somebody at Defiance" and not Defiance as a company. While this is speculation it sounds sorta like somebody didn't want to keep fanning the flames of ruin and decided to pay the money out of pocket to try and keep the lawyers at bay. Was this done by the company or by an individual?

Darred (who has left defiance) had this to say: http://www.verycutegm.com/?p=637


Tim=Tony.
George=Gary
Mick=Max

What on earth is his mother tongue? Because it sure doesn't seem to be English.

Rather unfortunate for her, hopefully she isn't hit too hard as a result of her new found unemployment.

Heck, might even be someone that Ken can headhunt. Should he manage to get the grant, he will need an IT type person to help with the new fangled computers for his machines (not to mention dust off his webstore a bit).

I guess this means we won't be getting a second episode of the podcast...

Well, I contacted Kickstarter about the project being based on fraud, and their response was basically, "we have a department who will look into it." Maybe I'll send them that link, too.

If that doesn't work, I'll have to call the credit card... I hate calling the credit card.

While I have some sympathy for anyone getting burnt by Tony Reidy, I have to say that the Defiance Mk 2 people were (IMnsHO) at the very least negligent in setting up the Kickstarter and taking people's money before they were in control of the company and had done their due diligence. They did not set out the full facts of the company position in an honest manner and now 686 people have poured money into a Black Hole in reliance on the promises made by Darrin, Max, Gary (at the least).

They represented themselves as being the company controllers and have taken money in exchange for the promise to deliver goods that they are now unable to deliver.

In the UK at least, if someone acts in such a way as to reasonably be believed to be a company director, they can be held personally liable for any promises they made that company does not then fulfill. I don't know if the US has any similar laws.

 paulson games wrote:
Darred (who has left defiance) had this to say: http://www.verycutegm.com/?p=637


Tim=Tony.
George=Gary
Mick=Max

TBH it seems like someone is always blaming someone else at Defiance. Not one person seems willing to put there hands up and admit that they fethed up and were part of the problem.

It seems as though the blog page mysteriously disappeared... just like so many other bad press posts that have hit Defiance's facebook page and forums.

Fortunately a kindly gent on the Frothers forum saved it.

(all names are changed to protect the wicked parties).

Wow. Can someone forward that image to Kickstarter? It'd probably too late at this point, but that looks like the very definition of fraud.

Whoever is at the helm of Defiance Games just responded in the comments section of their kickstarter:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/defiancegames/28mm-power-armor-hardsuits-defiance-games/comments

Sorry for the silence on our end. We just put up an update asking for your opinions on the survey. We'll have answers to other posted questions soon and then will be responding as they come in. Thanks again.

They are good at replying without providing any actual content.

Their more recent "replies" are the same reply that has been copy pasted, or a statement like give us more time we're working on a statement which never comes.


Detailed replies you can totally forget about. Plus they are still ignoring or deleting anything having to do with looking at the company management.


I'd love to re-post the blog entry on the KS page, but that would have required pledging and IMO it's not worth giving them even $1.

"Responded" seems like too strong a term.

If that blog post is accurate I wonder what poor sap has "bought" Defiance? And WHY? If you put more than $20k in to it you could have just as easily started your own company and have initiated a more impressive product line in less time then it's going to take Defiance to stumble their way towards releasing a poorly cast egg robot.

I think maybe Gary had assumed control of Defiance based on what was said in his prior posts, but it's hard to say as that could have been a pre-kickstarter smoke screen to get people to pledge thinking Tony was gone.

I do find it somewhat suspect that the other people at Defiance claiming everything is Tony's fault. While I don't doubt that's where the majority of the fault lies I find it hard to believe that they are working in a complete vacuum. Like she said she didn't see a sustainable amount of product being shipped and that there were serious warnings going on about the health of the company. (who the heck works for 2 years without pay??) But at the same time everyone keeps those items quiet and focuses on the KS as a way of getting paid.

If the employees were in fact looking out for their customers and pledgers you think they might have said something like hey maybe this isn't a good idea. Instead it appears they intentionally withheld their concerns while accepting everyone's money, which is in effect acting as an accomplice to Tony's mismanagement/scamming.

My personal thinking is that all of this has been intentional based on the history with wargames factory and their other production contractors (who are still unpaid). In business you don't get multiple "start overs" and these situations happening repeatly are usually indicators of an intentional pattern of fraud. I think the KS was likely undertaken to try and shore things up a bit before the dam broke completely and everyone was probably so desperate to get anything they could they didn't question things, or in a worst case scenario covered it up on purpose for a money grab.

I'm sure we won't ever get the full story to know if it's a case of intentional deception or just plain up stupidity, but in either case the end result is likely the same. The company is going to fail due to mismanagement and will cost their kickstarter supporters a lot of money.

It seems defiance is continuing their trend of either fraud or utter incompetence.

Clearly they need to run another kickstarter so folks can give them another chance and help them get the New New Newer Newest Defiance off to a good start.

 carlos13th wrote:
It seems defiance is continuing their trend of fraud and utter incompetence.

Fixed that for you

You can't really claim they were incompetent at the fraud. How much did they pull in via the Kickstarter?

Frankly that was brilliant. A company known to have massive issues delivering anything they promise and known to have issues with honesty is able to run a successful Kickstarter and have a slew of folks talking about how great it is that they have finally changed.