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2014/01/09 01:52:35
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2014/01/09 03:28:45
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
Makes you wonder how these are still in business. Using the USMC logo without permission? I think somewhere a game company just hit a new low.
There are two things infinitely abundant in the universe: helium and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former.
2014/01/09 06:30:35
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
CptJake wrote:That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
Makes you wonder how these are still in business. Using the USMC logo without permission? I think somewhere a game company just hit a new low.
The law that made it legal for the US military to require permission is only ten years old, isn't it? And frankly, the USMC are pretty stupid when it comes to their brand recognition. Only a complete idiot would publicly praise their new camouflage pattern because "We want them to see us coming a mile away in our new uniforms." and not recognise the cognitive dissonance.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2014/01/09 10:22:27
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
To be fair to those who trusted in him, the background is only available to those who are actively looking for it, and it's a fairly recent (as in the last year or so) development. .
That is not accurate. They had trouble from the get go (2011) with the Marines. First they were taking money and showing them as In Stock well before they actually had stock to fulfill orders. They also used the USMC logo without permission and had to change that right away. Tony then proceeded to go down hill from there.
That was a small matter that most folks wrote off as the birth pains of a new company's first product. When they finally arrived, folks were actually quite pleased with the product and it seemed like Defiance was a company that would be making cool hard plastic miniatures of decent (not amazing) quality.
I'm not disputing that there were clues, but it took time for all the pieces to fall into place to where the gaming community realized how deep the rabbit hole went.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/09 13:26:55
Project Update #29: Hardsuit Molding
Posted by Defiance Games ♥ Like
Hi All - sorry for the silence we've just been incredibly busy pulling everything together for the Kickstarter and also getting ready to relaunch the website and the online shop.
Part of our delay was finalizing some changes to the hardsuit parts to make them ideal for manufacturing. We wanted to highlight a few of those here so you can see what we're doing with them.
This first one is the flame unit arm. Originally (orange master above) we had this as one piece. For easier molding we've detached the tank and added a slot for fitting it to the main weapon. This will make molding much easier and give a better final part.
These next two are the main body "pod" for the suit. Originally this was two parts for the main pod and the top plate with the missile defense tubes. We were able to merge these together. There wasn't really any benefit in having that part so this will save a gluing step for assembly.
Finally the open-hand left arms that come with the set had some sculpture modifications done to spread the fingers a bit. This was also for molding purposes to have the parts release from the mold better. (apologies for the dirty fingernail!)
Mostly little things but they add up to a better overall set. With our release date fast approaching for the first set in the Kickstarter - these hardsuits - we are working hard and fast to get them ready to go.
Stay tuned and we'll have more to share next week. Have a great weekend everyone.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/01/23 02:33:10
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Dear Backers,
This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”
We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.
A Recap:
As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.
The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.
Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.
The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.
Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.
With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.
I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.
It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.
Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!
Clearly we have a serious problem.
Get Another Production Company?
Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”
The Problem
And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.
Where Do We Go From Here?
Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.
The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.
This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.
I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.
Tl:dr
In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team
Tony strikes again! I'm sure it's complete some guy in China's fault... I feel so bad for the backers and the Torn Armor folks.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/01/23 02:57:06
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Wowzers, I don't think I have heard of a KS go this 'belly up' in the miniatures/wargaming arena yet. It is hard when the money is 'gone' and you have nothing to show for it and no way to refund anything.
I feel really bad for them.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/01/23 03:00:04
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
I'm sure Tony or someone was a Torn Armor backer and offered to help them with their surplus money problem. This guy is a complete tool; there's a special place in hades for him, I hope.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/01/23 03:11:43
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times.
Of course not. It's not like there were any warning signs that you shouldn't give other people's money to the company.
Exactly......I'd have thought even if they were using Bing as their search engine it would quickly turn up the infamous history of Defiance. Sounds like a basic failure of diligence.
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
2014/01/23 11:50:30
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
I don't blame the Kickstarter people for being a bit naive.
The great benefit of Kickstarter is that it allows anyone with an idea to appeal for project funding. The great disadvantage of Kickstarter is that it allows anyone with an idea to appeal for project funding even if they have no business experience or skills.
It is in the nature of Kickstarter that if a project fails there isn't a wider business supporting it. Supporters should not consider their funding to be pre-orders that a normal company would be obliged to refund.
Dear Backers,
This is not an easy update to send out, but I have always been open, honest and transparent with you all and recently the Torn World team has had to have some very unpleasant conversations regarding “Torn Armor.”
We have hit a major obstacle here – which I will detail below – and it is only fair to be open and clear on the parties involved. I will simply layout the facts as they have occurred and you can form your own conclusions. What I will say is that ultimately you put your faith and trust in me to ensure that this project was delivered, and in that I have failed you. So while the Torn Armor team has hit unforeseen circumstances and been subjected to unprofessional behavior and broken promises, ultimately I am responsible and please direct your frustrations squarely towards me.
A Recap:
As you will remember, immediately after the Kickstarter ended last year we contacted the China-based companies to finalize our quotes, and were then informed that even though our quotes were less than 90 days old the new production prices, across the board, jumped by 30%. This caused us to seek an alternative production company and during this time one of our backers came forward with a recommendation. This recommendation was given and genuinely provided to help the project, but in hindsight it set us on an unfortunate path.
The company recommended is here in the United State, and this – if anything – I viewed as being beneficial. What I did not know, and honestly had no way of knowing, was that they were about to head into some very troubling times. This company is Defiance Games.
Back in June/July of last year I had my first contact with Defiance and after talking to them for a short while, I felt that it was a good solution and I felt confident that everything was still on track. But the intervening time has been nothing but stalls, delays, staffing shuffles, and sideways movement. They brought on a new CEO shortly after I signed contracts with them, which I found to be alarming, but was told that it was to improve the running of the company. They acknowledged that they had been experiencing turbulent times and the new CEO was to help get things back on track; I was reassured, numerous times and by their upper management that all was on track and schedule.
The team I had recently been introduced to and communicated with soon left and a new team was brought onboard. Again I got to meet them and again I was reassured that the changes were for the best. We were still prepping miniatures for mold production, deadlines and timelines were re-affirmed as being “November,” and while I was uncomfortable with the constant switching of staff, I felt that the wheels were moving and shortly we’d start seeing masters roll off the 3d printers. When this did not happen as promised I started updates regarding delays, later delivery timeframes and so on. I simply need time to sort out what was actually happening and where I might be able to adjust as needed.
Now while I am a patient person and I can be understanding the constant delays and lack of action from Defiance made me think that this was more than a “changing of the guard, or a that new production schedule was being implemented.” I realized there was something seriously wrong.
With our initial deadlines past and the old year ending I put them under great pressure to get things moving. With this pressure we saw the hoplite. He was great and Defiance confirmed that they could work with the model.
I believed we had a light at the end of the tunnel. With constant pressure and micro management on my end I cautiously believed we could get the project on a track towards completion.
It was at this time that Defiance stated that they would not produce any masters until they had finished a batch of models. They then informed us that the file format we had provided them, their choice, wasn’t going to work. This new format was already a replacement of the original format they said wouldn’t work, which again was their choice. Soon after this they started talking about “going back to the models from last October” It was at this time I knew we were going into a downward spiral of excuses and finger pointing.
Ironically their chief responsibility was the creation of a usable, printable, castable 3d miniature models. Early on, they informed me they were unable to work with my artist/modeler and they in turn chose the artist/modeler they wanted to work with. The file format wasn’t going to work!
Clearly we have a serious problem.
Get Another Production Company?
Last Friday I concluded that Defiance was completely unable to fulfill our needs and that I made a mistake in choosing them. Being noble and generous I would say that they truly felt like they could handle it, but the reality of the project – in addition to their own projects – was too much. There may well be other reasons.
I formally asked for our money back less the approved and agreed charges and after a weekend of badgering they told me on Monday that “We do not have the available cash on hand to return these funds at this time” and “We are gearing up here for our own releases to get new product to market and improve our cash flow.”
The Problem
And herein lies the problem: Defiance have not been able to produce the miniatures, but they are also unable to return the funds. And the funds are somewhat substantial.
Currently, we are reviewing all legal options, but I have very little faith that we will simply get this money back.
Torn Armor is effectively dead in the water.
Where Do We Go From Here?
Clearly our options are considerably broadened if Defiance returns our funds: Reaper Miniatures offered to help out, but without these funds allocated to the miniatures being able to fulfill on the miniatures is an impossibility.
The money lost is crippling, but it wasn’t everything and we can put the remaining funds to good use. Currently we are discussing offering partial refunds, creating the game-only tier (rules, maps, cards, units, dice) or simply staying in a holding pattern until there is news where our funds are returned, but this last option could honestly be something that dragged on for years and we are not a fan of that route.
This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this, we created a dream and you – our incredible backers – were the best that anyone could have ever asked for. We all passionately worked together for the Kickstarter and I earned some good friends because of it, so to now be reduced to this a year later is utterly crushing.
I fought off this moment as long as I could, but I would not send out an update like this without firmly believing that we just ran into a brick wall.
Tl:dr
In a nutshell we have been screwed by our supplier and are now not able to fulfill this Kickstarter project. We are discussing all options at the moment, but do consider the miniatures portion of this project dead.
~ Natalya & the Torn World Team
That is really terrible.
My own morbid curiosity wonders if Torn really took a good long look at the Defiance's product line before choosing them. If it was a year ago, then they didn't have as many bad products on the market yet, but back then IIRC, DG had already posted a sort of calendar of releases that was way behind.
Still, my sympathies to Torn World and their backers.
And I get yet another reason to be glad I didn't buy into this KS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 17:45:21
Did you really have to take so little responsibility and say that WE failed? After a nice paragraph in which you say you should take the blame, you write a long text blaming us. Wrong.
Basically, your figures were not produced because the digital files you provided do not work. Yet you try to shift responsibility for that to Defiance. Defiance DID NOT create the digital files. It was never our responsibility to do that. You should admit that, but you do not.
This is your project -- the only person responsible for the fact that Defiance never received workable files is ultimately you, Alyssa. The buck stops with you when it comes to Torn.
After the original files proved unworkable, the vendor you hired to fix them did not provide results which could be manufactured (Did you really want us to try and make a 20 mm resin figure in 5 parts???). Nothing that happened at Defiance, the 'changing of the guard' or the 'turbulent times' changes that.
You claim to have patience. Well, you are now choosing (it is a choice on your part) to close your project. Ultimately, this might still be a fixable problem. We have suggested possible solutions. You have decided not to do that. That is your decision and your responsibility. Do not blame anyone else for it.
I am really disappointed in you.
John Morse
This is getting uglier and uglier.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/01/23 15:43:25
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
Just sounds like Defiance is looking for a moment to sound indignant while backhandedly sighing in great relief that there's one less job anyone's actually expecting them to deliver on. Although you'd think they'd have better sense than to be judging the character of someone else with such indignation, considering their own storied history.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 15:45:03
2014/01/23 17:16:28
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
If you give several 10k $ to a random person with a bad reputation, what on earth do you expect to happen? You sometimes have to pay for being that stupid and irresponsible with money.
Defiance is done if they do not return the money and Torn Armor does not post a positive statement of resolution; and then they may still be done. The only way Defiance Games can survive is by returning the money, otherwise this is it for Defiance Games.
Third time is a charm, and that charm is an Albatross.
Defiance Games is probably already done, but it hardly matters... they've got almost 50K from their own campaign, plus the funds from Torn Armor that were given to them... they'll make off into the night with all or most of it, and not really care that their name is irrecoverable.
It sucks... the only way to avoid that is for Torn Armor to pursue legal action against them as Rust Forge successfully did. I really, really hope that they do this.
2014/01/23 17:52:02
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
RiTides wrote: Defiance Games is probably already done, but it hardly matters... they've got almost 50K from their own campaign, plus the funds from Torn Armor that were given to them... they'll make off into the night with all or most of it, and not really care that their name is irrecoverable.
It sucks... the only way to avoid that is for Torn Armor to pursue legal action against them as Rust Forge successfully did. I really, really hope that they do this.
I honestly doubt there is money there to get at this point.
Dump $50k into a business and it can go fast. That's far less than a years salary for two people, not even counting outflow of cash for sub-contractors, supplies, etc. Also, depending on how the organization is setup, there may be no legal way to go after individual people. Depending on how it was spent, and the financial condition of the rest of the business it might well be already gone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 17:52:37
Well it depends if the only outflow is to Tony ' s bank account or not.. saying the previous rumor about everything they're showing being around for months and months.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/01/23 22:22:13
Subject: Re:Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
On a minor side note, it was interesting to go back to the 2011 post on the takeover of WGF and see how many users here were defending Tony. The consensus was that the Chinese manufacturer was withholding orders in order to force Tony into selling off WGF.
What a difference two and a half years makes.
2014/01/24 09:45:26
Subject: Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off
are still in business. Using the USMC logo without permission? I think somewhere a game company just hit a new low.
